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Quote (david @ Dec. 29 2006,09:43) Quote I am not arian or watchtower becaue they both believe Jesus to be some lesser God. I believe Him to be fully Human. I do not deny the Deity that resides in christ, but I believe that Deity is the Father and not some second person of the Trinity. Scripture is clear that the Father resided in Jesus. At this point, in heaven, I believe that Jesus and YHWH (His father) or so much one that they ae virtually indestinguishable.
Didn't peter look up in vision and see Jehovah on his throne and Jesus beside him?
Anyway, you say JW's believe Jesus to be some lesser God, while you hold that he is fully human.
What JW's believe is that he “became flesh” and was indeed fully human while on earth. he is no longer on earth. The Bible does describe him as “mighty God” and he is certainly a spirit being, not human anymore.Quote At this point, in heaven, I believe that Jesus and YHWH (His father) or so much one that they ae virtually indestinguishable.
Jesus is the image of God. Having spent eons with him, they are certainly very similar in character, etc. But one is described as the “most high.” One is described as “almighty.”
I'm not sure what you mean in saying that Jesus is human…please clarify.
Sorry, I am not relly interested, at this time, in debating the failures of Watchtower doctrine.
I will, since it bears on my previous post, answer two questions of yoursPeter had a vision of Jesus on the side of God. As in all visions of a supernatural content being conveyed to our physical realm, Jesus was portrayed in the right hand position as a position of power not a literal place. To portray Him as a secondary God in addition to YHWH becomes two Gods and that is Whacko. That is all I am going to say on that subject at this time. And no I will not cast perls before swine to develop that any farther.
As to your second question – I believe Jesus to be the completely Human son of God God created a seed to implant in marys womb. His genetic code was completely human. this was already discussed in my previous post. I sugggest you reread it there.
WJ
By the way I do not like the NIV. I am happy to deal with you thru the KJV although I prefer the NASB. I spent many hours on the computer yesterday and do not feel like burning myself out dealing with your article on modern translations, but thanks for posting it.
>
o·pin·ion
1 A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:
2 A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.Unless it is an observable fact, opinions are all we have. I believe truth is in scripture but it contains too much information for any one person to see how it all interweaves. It seems to have been God's will that only a group desiring truth over their opinions will be able to find it. Reasoning together means trying to understand a brothers position and giving it a honest evaluation to what you know of scripture, then telling your side of it without emotions remembering it is your “opinion”.
It's hard to give up on a deeply held conviction, but a love for truth makes it possible to do so. But reasoning together will never happen if inflammatory remarks are added, they do not edify and only cause the recipient to dig in possibly making the accuser guilty of being a stumbling block.
WJ,
I post this to add another aspect to your article on Bibles.
I have heard some state or imply that all translations other then the 1611 King James Version or false and it is the only Bible we should read. I was researching to write an article on this subject when I came across these articles by Robert Joyner. I feel it sums up my understanding of this subject and makes some very good points.
I did take the liberty to compile together two articles by the author for brevity sake. In doing so I attempted to keep the flavor of both articles intact in as honest a manner as possible.Compilation of two articles by Robert A. Joyner
Of all the hundreds of Bible translations around the world today and in different generations past, some people select the King James Version as the only one they use or recognize. They claim the King James translation is inspired just as the original writings were. This is certainly a claim the translators never made for themselves! The Bible says inspiration stopped when Revelation chapter 22 was complete. (Rev. 22:18-19)
Some KJV Only people disclaim inspiration for the KJV translators, but they say the KJV is God's perfectly preserved Word. That is the same thing as inspiration. It takes inspiration to have perfection.
I know some will scream at this point and say they believe in perfect preservation, not inspiration for the KJV. That is playing with words. It is not being completely honest. The bottom line is, if something is perfect, it has to be inspired. Call it what you will. To claim perfection for the KJV is to claim inspiration.
Inspiration in the Bible refers only to the original manuscripts. Each translation has to be judged on its own merits, or lack of them. This includes the KJV which is really only a revised version itself, being based on William Tyndale's translation and the Bishops Bible.
Many people have written books claiming the KJV is without error. They say it is God’s perfectly preserved word with no mistakes.
Peter Ruckman says over and over in his book, HANDBOOK OF MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE, that the KJV is superior to the original Greek. He says where the Greek says one thing and the Authorized Version (A.V.) says another, “ throw out the Greek.” Ruckman says the A.V. 1611 is necessary to recover the original text and straighten out the corrupt Greek. “The A.V. 1611 is correct; the Greek texts are wrong.” (p. 125) Again and again Ruckman says the KJV is the final authority. William Grady has written a book called THE FINAL AUTHORITY in which he says the KJV is the final authority, not the original Greek and Hebrew.HISTORIC FUNDAMENTAL POSITION
The historic fundamental position has always been that inspiration is claimed only for the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. Dr. Robert L. Sumner, in his booklet on BIBLE TRANSLATIONS quotes all the great men of the past who were known to be leaders in Fundamental circles. He also quotes the greatest leaders living at the time he wrote, and all of them agree that the historic Christian position has always been that inspiration concerns the original writings and each translation has to be evaluated individually.
On page 1213 in the Old Scofield Bible, the note at the bottom of the page says, “The writers of scripture invariably affirm, where the subject is mentioned by them at all, that the words of their writings are divinely taught. This, of necessity, refers to the original documents, not to translations and versions.
The list of eight consulting editors at the front of the Scofield Bible reads like a “Who's Who” in the world of Bible believing scholars in the early 1900's. This group of Bible college presidents, authors, teachers, and editors all agreed with the note quoted above. So this note becomes a powerful testimony as to what early fundamentalists believed.WRITINGS MAKE IT CLEAR
The very people who helped to organize and to write the beliefs of what is called “Fundamentalism” today make it clear what they believed. The great recognized writings such as THE FUNDAMENTALS and THE HISTORY OF FUNDAMENTALISM IN AMERICA, make it clearly known how Bible believers have always stood. They all believed the same as stated above.BIBLE BELIEVING LEADERS TODAY
Most of the Bible believing leaders of today are not KJV Only. Very few of the evangelicals are KJV Only. Most of the leading Bible schools and seminaries are not KJV Only. Examples are Bob Jones University, Tennessee Temple and Liberty University. The Baptist Bible Fellowship is the largest Independent Baptist Fellowship, and it is not KJV Only. Most of the great preachers of today are not KJV Only.The Fundamental Baptist Fellowship said in their news bulletin for July/August, 1984 “We reject as heretical the concept that any translation of the Bible is given by inspiration, which has in our generation fostered a cult. We believe firmly that inspiration ceased upon the closure of the canon of Scripture in the original autographs. We likewise reject the practice of exalting any version or translation to the position held uniquely by the original writings.”
BIBLE SCHOOLS AND SEMINARIES
It is important to notice that all reputable Bible schools which have stood for the inspiration of the Scripture, have always believed just as presented above.
The KJV Only view is a new doctrine to Christians. However, it is not completely new in history, because the Roman Catholics claimed the same thing for their Latin Vulgate translation. About 16 popes pronounced the Vulgate infallible. Later Clement VIII had it revised and corrected. To claim a translation is infallible is an old Roman Catholic heresy.TEXTUS RECEPTUS
Some of the KJV fans claim it is the only infallible version because it was translated from the “Textus Receptus.” Dr. Allan A. MacRae and Dr. Robert C. Newman in their booklet entitled THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS AND THE KING JAMES VERSION, show that the “Textus Receptus” was not published until 1624, which was 13 years after the KJV. Therefore the KJV could not have been translated from it. In other words, it was not actually called the Textus Receptus until 1624.
The KJV was based on the Stephanus text, which is a revision of Erasmus' Greek text, now called the Textus Receptus. Erasmus, a Roman Catholic, prepared the Greek text that later became known as the Textus Receptus. In other words, Erasmus' Greek text evolved into what today is called the Textus Receptus. Technically speaking, the Textus Receptus was not in existence when the KJV was translated in 1611. Scholars have pointed out that the Stephanus text differs from the Textus Receptus in 287 places. In other words, the Textus Receptus is supposed to be the perfect Greek text and the KJV is supposed to be perfect because it was translated from that text. Yet the KJV was translated from a Greek text that differs from it in 287 places. How does one explain these differences?
Some people assume that the Erasmus text, the Textus Receptus, the Stephanus text and the majority text are all the same. That is not the case.Dr. Wilbur Pickering admits that the Erasmus text differed from the majority of text in about a thousand places. (THE IDENTITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT TEST, P. 177) Where does this leave those who say the KJV is perfect because it was translated from a perfect “Textus Receptus”? They don't know what the Textus Receptus is.
Erasmus put some words in the Book of Revelation that are not found in any Greek manuscript whatsoever. That is the reason why Revelation 22:14, in the KJV, teaches works for salvation.
KJV – Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates to the city. (clearly shows a Catholic bent)
NASB – Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. (based on older and many more Greek manuscripts then were available to Erasmus)
Much work has been done since Erasmus prepared his Greek text from a few moderately ancient manuscripts. The number of manuscripts has increased today and work has reached such perfection that no more than one word in a thousand is questioned. And even these have no bearing on any doctrine, precept or promise. Most textual scholars seem to agree on this.
The New American Standard Bible used around 5,000 Greek manuscripts dating back to the 3rd and 4th centuries. The translators used early versions in other languages, plus writings of the early church fathers who quoted the Bible in their writings. These three sources- manuscripts, versions, and fathers- were all combined for the first time. There were almost 100 Bible believing scholars from different denominations who translated this version.
The New International version used over 100 scholars working with the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. The group was transdenominational and international. There were people from the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand working together.
There were many denominations that included Anglican, Assemblies of God, Baptist, Brethren, Lutheran, Mennonite, Methodist, Nazarene, Presbyterian and others. This was to safeguard the translation from sectarian bias. No other translation has gone through a more thorough process of review and revision from committee to committee than this one. They tried to make every effort to produce an accurate contemporary English translation.Erasmus, who compiled the Textus Receptus, from which the KJV was translated, used 6 manuscripts, none older than the 9th century. Some scholars say none were older than the 12th century. All together there was not a complete copy of the New Testament. Verses were copied out of the Roman Catholic Latin Bible to complete the book of Revelation. He had only a fraction of the copies of Greek manuscripts available today.
The Greek text used by the NASB was compiled by Bible believing scholars such as Ellicott, Alford and Lightfoot. Their Greek text was approved by the greatest Greek scholars such as A.T. Roberson and Gresham Machen.
The Greek text used by the KJV translators was compiled by Erasmus, who was a liberal Roman Catholic. He added verses from the Catholic Latin translation. It was the work of one man. There has been 18 editions of this Textus Receptus with no two exactly alike.
The NASB was translated by about 100 of the best scholars in Europe and America. They were Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist and other denominations to omit bias. As I have already stated, the NIV had scholars from all over the English speaking world. There were many denominations represented on the translation committee.
The KJV was translated by the Church of England (called the Episcopal Church in the U.S.). They reveal their bias by refusing to translate words like “baptism” and “deacon,” because if they did, it would contradict the practice of their church. The KJV originally contained the Apocrypha, 14 books and 172 chapters of uninspired writings from the Catholic Bible. Also, it contained a list of holy days, including one for the “blessed Virgin.” There was not a big variety of denominations on the KJV translation committee. There was not one Baptist. King James hated Baptists. He said he wanted to “harrow out of England” all Baptists.
King James selected 54 learned men from high churchmen and some Puritans. He tried to secure the cooperation of every Biblical scholar of note in his kingdom. The translators were instructed to use the Bishops’ Bible as a basis and departed from it only when the text required it. It was to have no marginal notes, except for the explanation of Hebrew and Greek words. This last simple rule, probably more than anything else, helped to make our Authorized Version the Bible of all classes in England and America. All versions before the KJV had notes. King James did not like some of these notes. (One margin note in particular concerned stating that the Hebrew midwives were right to dissobey the king and not kill their children)This is one reason the king wanted a new translation. He did not want anyone getting ideas that it is OK to dissobey the king.
The American Standard Version came out in 1901 and has been rightly regarded for its scholarship and accuracy. It was a product of both British and American scholarship. Nearly a hundred scholars labored 10 years. In 1959 a new translation project was launched, based on the ASV. There were about 100 more eminent scholars who labored. The result was the New American Standard Bible.
The KJV, on the other hand, was finished in 1611. The translators revised it in 1613, making about 400 changes. They revised it again in 1629, leaving out the Apocrypha. It has been revised at least 5 times. The last revision was in 1769. It still has at least 400 outdated words. Some today think they still have the 1611 edition, when in fact, we have the 1769 edition. If you did have a 1611 edition, it would be very valuable, worth at least a hundred thousand dollars probably. When people today say they have a 1611 KJV, it is gross ignorance on their part.NOT ALL TRANSLATIONS ARE THE SAME
There are some translations by liberals, modernists, and some by false cults that have serious errors and should be rejected. But even these teach the same Bible doctrines as good reliable translations. I have used Jehovah's Witnesses own Watchtower translation to prove them wrong. It is wise sometimes to use the Catholic translations when witnessing to Catholics.
Some seem to think that if you change one word, then you destroy some major teaching. They don't understand the way the Bible is written. Every doctrine of the Bible is mentioned over and over. No doctrine is mentioned just once and then never mentioned again later on. The Bible is a progressive revelation. For example, the second coming of Christ was mentioned by Enoch (Jude 14), but it is mentioned again and again over 300 times. If a translation was faulty in one place it would not change what the Bible taught about this subject. There are still plenty of passages that do prove it.TRUTH CANNOT BE DESTROYED BY MISTRANSLATION
God in His wisdom has written the Bible so that it cannot be destroyed by mistranslation. Bible teachings do not depend on the correct translation of some word or words. The virgin birth of Christ can be proven from long passages without using the word “virgin.” The teaching about hell can be proven without using the word “hell” at all. But of course the word hell is used.
Let me make it clear that I do not condone the intentional mistakes and errors that some translators have made. No indeed! I am just making the point that all of it is the powerful Word of God. You do not have to have a complete copy of the Bible to make it so. Looking at history and mankind as a whole, there have been very few people comparatively, who have had a complete copy. Many Christians and some pastors in foreign lands today do not have a complete Bible. They still believe and preach the pure gospel of Christ.
If a person wants to use the KJV, fine. I see no problem at all with that, but to say that no version other then the KJV is the word of God is foolishness. To believe that there is some special inspiration on the KJV or that it was perfectly preserved is nonsense. Those who make these claims and insist on KJV only deny God’s inspiration on the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and are actually fighting against God’s word. Furthermore they are causing division in the body.On a personal note — I agree with the author, that the differences between the most commonly used translations are not significant enough to cause a person to be in heresy. If there is a heresy in this subject it would fall on those that believe and/or promote that any translation is perfectly preserved and/or inspired. This singular attribute of inspiration is reserved only for the original Greek or Hebrew text. To believe otherwise is contrary to scripture itse
lf as shown earlier in Revelation 22:18,19. It actually denies the inspiration of the origianl texts and places a translation written by man (even with the best intentions) above the writings directly inspired by God Himself. The second danger of believing in the “inspiration” of a particular translation is that it causes division in the body. It pits one group against another in a very judgemental way. I have even had some say to me that if I use another version or translation I am not a Christian. At one point I ask one of these accusers if I could use the original Greek or Hebrew text. (or as close as we have to the originals) Their reply was startling! They said the KJV was superior to the original texts.
I believe “KJV only” is just a tradition that has become an obsession for some. It is unfortunate that the obsession has taken on a judgemental attitude toward other Christians. In some cases KJV only groups have become almost cultish in their pursuit of this concept. I too grew up with the KJV and often use it because of it’s beautifull poetic nature. Especailly the Psalms and Proverbs. I, however, believe it is wise to use a multitude of translations to avoid the bias of any particular one.Timeline of Bible Translation History
1,400 BC: The first written Word of God: The Ten Commandments delivered to Moses.
500 BC: Completion of All Original Hebrew Manuscripts which make up The 39 Books of the Old Testament.
200 BC: Completion of the Septuagint Greek Manuscripts which contain The 39 Old Testament Books AND 14 Apocrypha Books.
1st Century AD: Completion of All Original Greek Manuscripts which make up The 27 Books of the New Testament.
315 AD: Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identifies the 27 books of the New Testament which are today recognized as the canon of scripture.
382 AD: Jerome's Latin Vulgate Manuscripts Produced which contain All 80 Books (39 Old Test. + 14 Apocrypha + 27 New Test).
500 AD: Scriptures have been Translated into Over 500 Languages.
600 AD: LATIN was the Only Language Allowed for Scripture.
995 AD: Anglo-Saxon (Early Roots of English Language) Translations of The New Testament Produced.
1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books.
1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin.
1516 AD: Erasmus Produces a Greek/Latin Parallel New Testament.
1522 AD: Martin Luther's German New Testament.
1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language.
1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha).
1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John “Thomas Matthew” Rogers (80 Books).
1539 AD: The “Great Bible” Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books).
1560 AD: The Geneva Bible Printed; The First English Language Bible to add Numbered Verses to Each Chapter (80 Books).
1568 AD: The Bishops Bible Printed; The Bible of which the King James was a Revision (80 Books).
1609 AD: The Douay Old Testament is added to the Rheims New Testament (of 1582) Making the First Complete English Catholic Bible; Translated from the Latin Vulgate (80 Books).
1611 AD: The King James Bible Printed; Originally with All 80 Books. The Apocrypha was Officially Removed in 1885 Leaving Only 66 Books.
1782 AD: Robert Aitken's Bible; The First English Language Bible (KJV) Printed in America.
1791 AD: Isaac Collins and Isaiah Thomas Respectively Produce the First Family Bible and First Illustrated Bible Printed in America. Both were King James Versions, with All 80 Books.
1808 AD: Jane Aitken's Bible (Daughter of Robert Aitken); The First Bible to be Printed by a Woman.
1833 AD: Noah Webster's Bible; After Producing his Famous Dictionary, Webster Printed his Own Revision of the King James Bible.
1841 AD: English Hexapla New Testament; an Early Textual Comparison showing the Greek and 6 Famous English Translations in Parallel Columns.
1846 AD: The Illuminated Bible; The Most Lavishly Illustrated Bible printed in America. A King James Version, with All 80 Books.
1885 AD: The “English Revised Version” Bible; The First Major English Revision of the KJV.
1901 AD: The “American Standard Version”; The First Major American Revision of the KJV.
1971 AD: The “New American Standard Bible” (NASB) is Published as a “Modern and Accurate Word for Word English Translation” of the Bible.
1973 AD: The “New International Version” (NIV) is Published as a “Modern and Accurate Phrase for Phrase English Translation” of the Bible.
1982 AD: The “New King James Version” (NKJV) is Published as a “Modern English Version Maintaining the Original Style of the King James.”
2002 AD: The English Standard Version (ESV) is Published as a translation to bridge the gap between the accuracy of the NASB and the readability of the NIV.
Quote Yes, but try to convince people that adore the KJ version of that. david
David
If I were you I would not talk about someone having a weak translation.
I suppose the “NWT” is more accurate than “KJV”?
M42
I leave this conversation with this.
Jesus said..
Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.On this side of the return of Jesus there will always be differences of beliefs.
There will always be “false doctrines” and “false christ”. The bottom line for every believer is that we have the Spirit of truth that will guide us into all truth.
Every man must seek God for himself. We may have many Fathers and teachers in this world, but ultimately we must find God for ourselves.
I think that what every believer should look for is “Fruit”.
How is my doctrine changing me and making me like Jesus”.
If I am preaching or teaching the truth of Gods word, what is the fruit?
First of all I need to examine my own life.
Truth revealed by the Spirit brings change. For we behold as in a glass the Glory of the Lord.
II Cor 3:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.The revealed living word of God changes us, not the reading of the dead letter without the Spirit.
Rom 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
The renewing of our minds takes place by offering our bodys as Living sacrifices to the Spirit and word of God.Its the revealed, living Word that changes us.
So as bielevers we shoud desire the sincere milk, and also the meat of Gods Word.
11] Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
[12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[13] For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
You are right doctrine should have functionality.Let each of us examine ourselves.
Are we loving Jesus and bearing fruit? Or are we loving this present world?
II Tim 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.Tit 2:
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus ChristI Jn 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
If a man seeks first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness then all that he needs will be added to him.To many believers profess to know God and yet by their works deny him.
Tts 1:
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.Its sad when I see people in drugs, or porn, or adultery, or lying, or stealing, their mouths full of cursing, and or in some cases totally not living a godly life.
Sadly these many times are professing christians.
So let us do as Paul said..
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Quote On a personal note — I agree with the author, that the differences between the most commonly used translations are not significant enough to cause a person to be in heresy. If there is a heresy in this subject it would fall on those that believe and/or promote that any translation is perfectly preserved and/or inspired. This singular attribute of inspiration is reserved only for the original Greek or Hebrew text. To believe otherwise is contrary to scripture itself as shown earlier in Revelation 22:18,19. It actually denies the inspiration of the origianl texts and places a translation written by man (even with the best intentions) above the writings directly inspired by God Himself. The second danger of believing in the “inspiration” of a particular translation is that it causes division in the body. It pits one group against another in a very judgemental way. I have even had some say to me that if I use another version or translation I am not a Christian. At one point I ask one of these accusers if I could use the original Greek or Hebrew text. (or as close as we have to the originals) Their reply was startling! They said the KJV was superior to the original texts.
I believe “KJV only” is just a tradition that has become an obsession for some. It is unfortunate that the obsession has taken on a judgemental attitude toward other Christians. In some cases KJV only groups have become almost cultish in their pursuit of this concept. I too grew up with the KJV and often use it because of it’s beautifull poetic nature. Especailly the Psalms and Proverbs. I, however, believe it is wise to use a multitude of translations to avoid the bias of any particular one.My post was not intended to claim that the KJV is the only valid translation.
You say..
Quote I too grew up with the KJV and often use it because of it’s beautifull poetic nature. Especailly the Psalms and Proverbs. I, however, believe it is wise to use a multitude of translations to avoid the bias of any particular one. This is my feeling also.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 30 2006,20:12) M42 I leave this conversation with this.
Jesus said..
Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.On this side of the return of Jesus there will always be differences of beliefs.
There will always be “false doctrines” and “false christ”. The bottom line for every believer is that we have the Spirit of truth that will guide us into all truth.
Every man must seek God for himself. We may have many Fathers and teachers in this world, but ultimately we must find God for ourselves.
I think that what every believer should look for is “Fruit”.
How is my doctrine changing me and making me like Jesus”.
If I am preaching or teaching the truth of Gods word, what is the fruit?
First of all I need to examine my own life.
Truth revealed by the Spirit brings change. For we behold as in a glass the Glory of the Lord.
II Cor 3:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.The revealed living word of God changes us, not the reading of the dead letter without the Spirit.
Rom 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
The renewing of our minds takes place by offering our bodys as Living sacrifices to the Spirit and word of God.Its the revealed, living Word that changes us.
So as bielevers we shoud desire the sincere milk, and also the meat of Gods Word.
11] Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
[12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[13] For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
You are right doctrine should have functionality.Let each of us examine ourselves.
Are we loving Jesus and bearing fruit? Or are we loving this present world?
II Tim 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.Tit 2:
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus ChristI Jn 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
If a man seeks first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness then all that he needs will be added to him.To many believers profess to know God and yet by their works deny him.
Tts 1:
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.Its sad when I see people in drugs, or porn, or adultery, or lying, or stealing, their mouths full of cursing, and or in some cases totally not living a godly life.
Sadly these many times are professing christians.
So let us do as Paul said..
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
WJ,
I am in agreement with your sentiments to seek God.
I assume you do wish to discuss the trinity with me any longer? Of course I would not force it, even if I could. I am, however, curious why?Quote WJ,
I am in agreement with your sentiments to seek God.
I assume you do wish to discuss the trinity with me any longer? Of course I would not force it, even if I could. I am, however, curious why?M42
I believe that God has given us the scriptures that we have miraculasly preserved like no other writtings in the history of man.
Are the translations of the scriptures perfect? No.
But does this mean that we can not seek God using what we have with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to find his truth? NO
I put my faith in the Holy Sciptures, because it was after all the Holy Sciptures being used by the Holy Spirit that brought me to Jesus.
But do I accept blindly what I read in the KJV or any of the other translations? No
Through study of the scriptures that we have we can know the truth.
Helps are fine. To have a better understanding of the Hebrew and Greek is even better.
Most of this work is done for us thruogh Mathew Henry or Orville J. Nave, Strong's, R. A. Torrey, etc.
I guess what Im trying to say is, If I am gonna discuss doctrine, I would rather stick to the scriptures as much as possible and not delve off into mountains of debate over history,or the Scholars or the translators and their differences.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 30 2006,21:53) Quote WJ,
I am in agreement with your sentiments to seek God.
I assume you do wish to discuss the trinity with me any longer? Of course I would not force it, even if I could. I am, however, curious why?M42
I believe that God has given us the scriptures that we have miraculasly preserved like no other writtings in the history of man.
Are the translations of the scriptures perfect? No.
But does this mean that we can not seek God using what we have with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to find his truth? NO
I put my faith in the Holy Sciptures, because it was after all the Holy Sciptures being used by the Holy Spirit that brought me to Jesus.
But do I accept blindly what I read in the KJV or any of the other translations? No
Through study of the scriptures that we have we can know the truth.
Helps are fine. To have a better understanding of the Hebrew and Greek is even better.
Most of this work is done for us thruogh Mathew Henry or Orville J. Nave, Strong's, R. A. Torrey, etc.
I guess what Im trying to say is, If I am gonna discuss doctrine, I would rather stick to the scriptures as much as possible and not delve off into mountains of debate over history,or the Scholars or the translators and their differences.
Somehow we have lost a connection here.
I am not sure what you are talking about. I did not bring up the discussion on Translations as far as I know.
To my knowledge you have not responded to the post I made yeasterday. The very long post? I used scriptures from the KJV and ask you questions about them. I responded to your questions about function and you made no coment about that.
I thought by your coment that the concersation was over that you refused to deal with my post?Let's get this discussion back on the track.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
There are Three separate Beings, each God and equal with one another. Though they hold different offices, they are nevertherless each God.
Three Divine beings within the Godhead with three different offices they choose to perform,
H2O can exist in three different realities, yet remain H20
•Ice
•Liquid
•or SteamEach Person of the Godhead can choose a different office, yet remain God.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
WJ,
I would still like to hear back from you on my post. You are one of the few I believe is open to truth.
Did you possible miss it?
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….st=4900It starts with”this is a monsterous post”
Waiting to hear from you.M42
You say…
Quote You said I am using preconcieved ideas. What is it when a person begins by using made up words that define a doctrinal stand? My question is this. From a logical standpoint of God wishing us to know Him and his son Jesus Christ. (remember you said in a previous post that this was of great importance) Why would God hide so important a doctrine to the point that made up non scriptural words need be used to carry the concept of this doctrine? Why is this concept not spoken of clearly in scripture? You stated in a previous post that belief in the trinity could determine your salvation. With that much on the line don’t you think God would make it clear in scripture. In fact the most clear scriptues you deny what they clearly say or you add a concept to them that is not there.
The King James Version. Translated by trinitarians and for trinitarians. The translation is so trinitarian biased that actual words were added to I John to support the trinity.
God has made it clear.Ill quote just a few scriptures of the many that are proof that the Trinitarian view is true.
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Word was God.All the major translations translate this the same except NWT which says “A God”.
Now either we believe what John has said or we don’t. Many who have turned their face to the deity of Christ has tried to explain it away or twist it or ignore it.
Jesus was God. Not the Father but with the Father as One. You say that is only 2, what about 3? Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit that he and the Father would send. Now in plain grammer that means there is “Another”. The Father didn’t “send himself” nor did Jesus “send himself”.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit was a gift from the Father.
Lk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?And then of course we have …
Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the HolyWhich again is found translated the same in all of the translations. Again many try to explain it away or ignore or twist it. None of the arguments hold weight because the scripture is clear.
You asked why didn’t God make it clear?
Here is just two that examples that make it clear of the many others.
Scripture should be used under the direction of the Holy Spirit to interpret scriptue.
The last of the few that I will mention is Heb 1.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Again irrefutable evidence that Jesus is called God by the Father. Jesus being the Word that was with God and the Word that was/is God. Should not be hard for people to understand. But they choose to deny the truth before them.A Father has a Son. The Father is greater than the Son in rank and possession, but not in nature. For the Son is an individual being with the same substance and essence and nature as the Father. The Son is Human/man and the Father is Human/man. Equal in nature.
Jesus is equally God as the Father. Same essence, substance, nature. Wonderously,and uniquelly with the Spirit as one Godhead.
We know that Jesus with the Spirit is co-creator with the Father. But we read..
In the beginning GOD. This is so clear. What more does one need.
M42, before I address any of your other issues, I want you to respond to this and give me scriptural evidence, besides the few proof text that says hes the Son, we see that in Heb 1, the Father calls him the son and calls him God, we are not denying the son by saying he is God, One with the Father and the Spirit.
Please show me how you would interpret these text in light of all the scripture.
Several times I have posted scriptures and points on function, which you have sidestepped. Since it is entertaining for me to deal with this silliness, I will answer your questions one more time. I do not believe it will do much other good, it appears you are as closed as the WJ’s on this board.
You ask me to use the whole scripture. Be nice if you did that too!
I have dealt with John 1 many times and will not do so again. I will only say this, by what authority do you change the meaning of “word” Logos (Gr) in John 1, to mean Jesus when (with very few eceptions) every other time it is used in scripture it has meaning related to a statement, speach, plan or idea? You tell me why it is appropriate to interpret it differently in John 1 then the rest of scripture? Could you be reading these verses and filtering them thru your doctrine to ascertain their meanings? What motivates, urges or demands that you translate these verses differently then the remainder of scripture. This certainly appears to be using a doctrine to define meaning rather then allowing scripture to speak for itself.You say it is important to have an understanding of the Greek and Hebrew and yet you casually accept the interpretation of pneuma (Gr) into spirit. What motivates you to accept that interpretation when every dictionary I have ever seen both biblical and language gives it’s primary meaning as breath or wind? Could it be because your interpretation personifies holy breath into a being and therefore supports your doctrine? Even today the word pneumatic, as in AIR tools comes from that word. Another case of doctrine defining words rather then the actuall language. I am trying to keep a good opinion of you, but I am perplexed at your tendency to read doctrine into scripture.
I ask you some time ago if you would do an honest word study on “spirit”. Did you do it? I showed you the respect and gave you the option to discover what it meant for yourself, rather then me giving the details and you rejecting them. I also ask you to check out the article “the” that proceeds “Holy Spirit”. In most cases it is not there.
If it was interpreted correctly it would say —Lk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give Holy breath to them that ask him?A different picture isn’t it? Now you no longer have a personified being called the Holy Spirit, but you have the Holy breath given to man. Not a person but Holy breath.
you say —
Jesus was God. Not the Father but with the Father as One. You say that is only 2, what about 3? Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit that he and the Father would send. Now in plain grammer that means there is “Another”. The Father didn’t “send himself” nor did Jesus “send himself”.Response– You see you assume “the Holy Spirit” to be a personality or person and then use that premiss to define scripture. Everytime I read one of your posts I see more and more how you interpret scriptures through your doctrine. you begin with a doctrine and then read scripture from that standpoint.
Secondly – In John, Jesus says his Father and He are one. In fact it says we are to be one with them in the same way. We become members of the Trinity? Jesus and the Father send the holy breath —John 20:22 Jesus speaking prophetically –
“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy breath:”Acts 1
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy breath is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Mighty wind? Moving air? Breath or wind? Pretty clear isn’t it?
Heb 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Response – Did you notice it says God apointed him. This denies Jesus being a co-equal person of God. How can one co-equal person appoint another?
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Response – the position of right hand is a position of power not a literal place.
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?response – This day I have begotten you – this denoted a beginning and denies preexistance. this day! Not eternal!
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.Response – I agree, that this verse is difficult. The Greek is not 100% clear in the order of the words, which could make a difference. Regardless if I can exactly explain this verse clearly, I know it cannot contradict the very context it is in or the general context of scriptures. What is more important is the context. Several times in this context it shows a clear difference in authority/rank between Jesus and God. How can they then be co-equal? How can Jesus have a God?
God appointed him. this shows they are not equal.
Begotten by God. started by God shows not equal.
Jesus has a God – Not equal.
The idea of Jesus being co-equal person of God with the Father is rebutted 3 times in the same context. What is your motive for pulling out of context, one line, to prove your point of co-equal persons while ignoring other very clear statements IN THE SAME CONTEXT denying co-equal persons of God.10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?Did you happen to see the word “untill”? It means at that point what was just spoken of ends! Jesus time
Acts 2
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
The word Lord is Kurios. It means master or one in authority. It is not a name for God. God (Theos) made Jesus master, the anointed one. Co-equal persons of God?
I Cor 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh
the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Notice After Jesus has destroyed dwath and put the Kingdom under the authority of theos, Jesus puts himself under the same authority in order to show that theos is all in all over Jesus too. This is at the end in heaven, Jesus is in subjection to Theos! Co-equal persons of God?
You say –
Again irrefutable evidence that Jesus is called God by the Father. Jesus being the Word that was with God and the Word that was/is God. Should not be hard for people to understand. But they choose to deny the truth before them.
A Father has a Son. The Father is greater than the Son in rank and possession, but not in nature. For the Son is an individual being with the same substance and essence and nature as the Father. The Son is Human/man and the Father is Human/man. Equal in nature.
Jesus is equally God as the Father. Same essence, substance, nature. Wonderously,and uniquelly with the Spirit as one Godhead.
We know that Jesus with the Spirit is co-creator with the Father. But we read..
In the beginning GOD. This is so clear. What more does one need.An interesting statement. “The Father is greater than the Son in rank and possession, but not in nature.” You make a comparison between the Father and Jesus with a human family. For that comparison to carry through Jesus must be less in rank then the father. So Jesus is in nature a God but not equal to the Father? So Jesus is God but lesser in authority.? You have just described one of the major tennants of the watchtower. Talk about me being Arian?
I have dealt with your post! —
Now, I still have some respect for you and your honesty. I do not expect you to sidestep my previous post any longer, but will actually deal with it.What are all your opinions on the view that:
The Father is El
The Son is YHWHIs the God of the pulpit the God of the Bible, or a god of manmade doctrine?
Are the religious leaders the creation and tool of God or is God the creation and tool of religious leaders?The Church View: There is one being, creator, unseen, all wise, all-powerful, vengeful, and intolerant. And most importantly, if they don’t tell you, don’t ask.
The Bible View: The God of the Bible is a family of supreme spiritual beings named the Elohiym, which is headed by the omnipotent and Supreme Being in the universe named El and called the Father in the Bible. All power, love, and substance in the universe is created and controlled by this family and all the power possessed by that family originates with El. The God, who created life on this planet, and known as the God of Israel, is named Yhovah. He is the most powerful and senior family member of the Elohiym under El, and became the man called Jesus.
The concept of God is a matter of each individual's belief and there are probably no two alike, not much unlike any individual's opinions about any given subject. Therefore, this is not an attempt to form opinions, rather to present what the Bible says about the God of the Bible, not the God of any religious belief.
How Many Gods?
The first thing that must be considered is the number of Gods spoken of in the Bible. That would be somewhere between two and an infinite number. The very first time the actual word 'God' appears in the Bible, it is translated from the word elohiym, the plural form of the word elowahh, in the first verse of the first book. In this verse it speaks of the Elohiym creating the known world. And, this is the word that is most often translated into God in the Old Testament, a word that appears almost 4000 times.
The word that appears over 31,000 times to describe the mightiest of the Elohiym is Yhovah, pronounced yeh-ho-vaw'. This is the Elohiym that first made contact with Moses, appeared to and spoke with the prophets, and became the first human incarnation of the Elohiym, Jesus the Christ. (See JESUS ) Yhovah, though not specifically named, is probably the God of record in the Garden of Eden. Jesus referred to a higher being than himself called the Father from the word “pater”, which literally means father. This distinct relationship is outlined here:
♦ 1 Corinthians 8: 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The power is from the Father God and the action is from Jesus, AKA, Yhovah. Therefore, there are at least two distinct entities. There is one verse in particular that indicates other Elohiym:
♦ Psalms 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?And what could be clearer than the following?
♦ Psalms 82:1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.
This verse, more than any, shows that, indeed, there are many Gods ruled by a Supreme God. The words God and gods in this verse are both taken from Elohiym, which means the mighty ones. The word mighty is taken from El, which means The Almighty, the Father. The verse is saying this:
The Mighty Ones stand in a family with The Almighty who is in the center and He guides the Mighty Ones.
· Everywhere the word God is taken from the word Elohiym it is a plural word and should be properly rendered as “Gods”. However, in some instances, the translators were forced to use the plural gods, other than the instances referring to false gods. They are presented here:
♦ Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
♦ Exodus 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
♦ Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
♦ Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
♦ Exodus 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
♦ Deuteronomy 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
♦ Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
♦ Joshua 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)
♦ 1 Samuel 4:8 Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness.
♦ 1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
♦ 1 Kings 19:2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger unto Elijah, saying, So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I make not thy life as the life of one of them by to morrow about this time.
♦ 1 Kings 20:23 And the servants of the king of Syria said unto him, Their gods are gods of the hills; therefore they were stronger than we; but let us fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they.
♦ 1 Chronicles 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
♦ 2 Chronicles 2:5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
♦ Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
♦ Psalms 86:8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
♦ Psalms 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
♦ Psalms 96:4 For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
♦ Psalms 97:9 For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
♦ Psalms 135:5 For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
♦ Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
♦ Psalms 138:1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
♦ Daniel 2:11 And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh
♦ Daniel 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
♦ Daniel 4:8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of
my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,
♦ Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
♦ Daniel 4:18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
♦ Daniel 5:11 There is a man in thy king
dom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;
♦ Daniel 5:14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee.
♦ Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.The idea that El gave YHWH Israel:
NLT
Deuteronomy 32:8-98 When the Most High assigned lands to the nations,
when he divided up the human race,
he established the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number in his heavenly court.9 “For the people of Israel belong to the Lord;
Jacob is his special possession.KJV
8When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
Youngs Literal
8In the Most High causing nations to inherit, In His separating sons of Adam — He setteth up the borders of the peoples By the number of the sons of Israel.
9For Jehovah's portion [is] His people, Jacob [is] the line of His inheritance
ESV
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.alot depends on whether it should be translated as sons of israel (which doesn't really make much sense) or sons of god
Quote I have dealt with your post! —
Now, I still have some respect for you and your honesty. I do not expect you to sidestep my previous post any longer, but will actually deal with it.M42
Blessings to you! We are from two different planets.
I pray the Lord give us both understanding of his word!
Quote What are all your opinions on the view that: The Father is El
The Son is YHWHIs the God of the pulpit the God of the Bible, or a god of manmade doctrine?
Are the religious leaders the creation and tool of God or is God the creation and tool of religious leaders?The Church View: There is one being, creator, unseen, all wise, all-powerful, vengeful, and intolerant. And most importantly, if they don’t tell you, don’t ask.
The Bible View: The God of the Bible is a family of supreme spiritual beings named the Elohiym, which is headed by the omnipotent and Supreme Being in the universe named El and called the Father in the Bible. All power, love, and substance in the universe is created and controlled by this family and all the power possessed by that family originates with El. The God, who created life on this planet, and known as the God of Israel, is named Yhovah. He is the most powerful and senior family member of the Elohiym under El, and became the man called Jesus.
The concept of God is a matter of each individual's belief and there are probably no two alike, not much unlike any individual's opinions about any given subject. Therefore, this is not an attempt to form opinions, rather to present what the Bible says about the God of the Bible, not the God of any religious belief.
How Many Gods?
The first thing that must be considered is the number of Gods spoken of in the Bible. That would be somewhere between two and an infinite number. The very first time the actual word 'God' appears in the Bible, it is translated from the word elohiym, the plural form of the word elowahh, in the first verse of the first book. In this verse it speaks of the Elohiym creating the known world. And, this is the word that is most often translated into God in the Old Testament, a word that appears almost 4000 times.
The word that appears over 31,000 times to describe the mightiest of the Elohiym is Yhovah, pronounced yeh-ho-vaw'. This is the Elohiym that first made contact with Moses, appeared to and spoke with the prophets, and became the first human incarnation of the Elohiym, Jesus the Christ. (See JESUS ) Yhovah, though not specifically named, is probably the God of record in the Garden of Eden. Jesus referred to a higher being than himself called the Father from the word “pater”, which literally means father. This distinct relationship is outlined here:
♦ 1 Corinthians 8: 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The power is from the Father God and the action is from Jesus, AKA, Yhovah. Therefore, there are at least two distinct entities. There is one verse in particular that indicates other Elohiym:
♦ Psalms 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?And what could be clearer than the following?
♦ Psalms 82:1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.
This verse, more than any, shows that, indeed, there are many Gods ruled by a Supreme God. The words God and gods in this verse are both taken from Elohiym, which means the mighty ones. The word mighty is taken from El, which means The Almighty, the Father. The verse is saying this:
The Mighty Ones stand in a family with The Almighty who is in the center and He guides the Mighty Ones.
· Everywhere the word God is taken from the word Elohiym it is a plural word and should be properly rendered as “Gods”. However, in some instances, the translators were forced to use the plural gods, other than the instances referring to false gods. They are presented here:
♦ Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
♦ Exodus 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
♦ Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
♦ Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
♦ Exodus 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
♦ Deuteronomy 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
♦ Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
♦ Joshua 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)
♦ 1 Samuel 4:8 Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness.
♦ 1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
♦ 1 Kings 19:2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger unto Elijah, saying, So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I make not thy life as the life of one of them by to morrow about this time.
♦ 1 Kings 20:23 And the servants of the king of Syria said unto him, Their gods are gods of the hills; therefore they were stronger than we; but let us fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they.
♦ 1 Chronicles 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
♦ 2 Chronicles 2:5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
♦ Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
♦ Psalms 86:8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
♦ Psalms 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
♦ Psalms 96:4 For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
♦ Psalms 97:9 For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
♦ Psalms 135:5 For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
♦ Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
♦ Psalms 138:1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
♦ Daniel 2:11 And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh
♦ Daniel 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
♦ Daniel 4:8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of
my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,
♦ Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
♦ Daniel 4:18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to
make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
♦ Daniel 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;
♦ Daniel 5:14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee.
♦ Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.Amen! Amen! Amen! Mercy.
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