- This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Quote Hi W,
He did empty himself and become like to us in every way except sin and none of us are God?NH
When he emptied himself he didnt stop being God, thats foolishness.
Could the Word God stop being the Word God?
He simply left all the Glory he had with the Father and his positon with the Father. And he took on a human body.
Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
*God, the Son, was manifest in the flesh
*God, the Son, was justified in the Spirit
*God, the Son, was seen of Angels
*God, the Son, preached unto the Gentiles
*God, the Son, was believed on in the world
*God, the Son, received up into glory.
Quote For some reason Buster keeps saying quite incorrectly that everyone on here who doesn't believe God is a trinity are JW's or supporters of their beliefs. This is quite incorrect. Several people have told him this. He doesn't get it. I should also mention that Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be accused of Arianism, inasmuch as they disagree with Arius’ views in many respects. For example, Arius denied that the Son could really know the Father. The Bible teaches that the Son ‘fully knows’ the Father and that the Son is “the one that has explained him.” (Matthew 11:27; John 1:14, 18) Arius claimed that the Word became God’s Son “by adoption” because of his virtue or moral integrity. The Bible says that he was created by Jehovah as his “only-begotten son.” (John 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 1:2; Revelation 3:14) Arius taught that Christians could hope to become equal to Christ, whereas the Bible states that God gave him “the name that is above every other name.” (Philippians 2:9-11) As well, although Arius did not accept Athanasius’ theory that the holy spirit was of the same substance as the Father, he did consider the spirit to be a person. This provides further proof that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Arians.
Far from being modern-day Arians, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe what the Bible says.
David
I think the reason he says that is because JWs as well as most on this forum do not believe Jesus is God. So the roots of that Goes back to Arian and his denial of the Deity of Christ by stating that Jesus had a beginning!
Blessings:)
Quote *God, the Son, was manifest in the flesh *God, the Son, was justified in the Spirit
*God, the Son, was seen of Angels
*God, the Son, preached unto the Gentiles
*God, the Son, was believed on in the world
*God, the Son, received up into glory.
In the Churches of Christendom, the phrase “God the Son” is heard so often, people begin to believe it. It doesn't occur in the Bible. Should we not stick to what the Bible says. Jesus is called over and over the son “of” God, distinguishing him from God.
If I am the Lord of France, i am not france, but have a relationship to France. Insert any example you want.Quote I think the reason he says that is because JWs as well as most on this forum do not believe Jesus is God. So the roots of that Goes back to Arian and his denial of the Deity of Christ by stating that Jesus had a beginning!
Yes, I absolutely understand why he thinks incorrectly. I'm just pointing out his error and trying to help him say things that are less wrong.david
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 16 2006,21:34) Quote Hi W,
He did empty himself and become like to us in every way except sin and none of us are God?NH
When he emptied himself he didnt stop being God, thats foolishness.
Could the Word God stop being the Word God?
He simply left all the Glory he had with the Father and his positon with the Father. And he took on a human body.
Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
*God, the Son, was manifest in the flesh
*God, the Son, was justified in the Spirit
*God, the Son, was seen of Angels
*God, the Son, preached unto the Gentiles
*God, the Son, was believed on in the world
*God, the Son, received up into glory.
Hi W,
If God came in the flesh then what happened at the Jordan?Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.Was God
anointed by God
with God
because God
was with God?Quote When he emptied himself he didnt stop being God, thats foolishness.
Did you never read that he “became flesh.” Not took on flesh or became part flesh or human, but he “became” flesh, human.JOHN 1:14
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father…”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 17 2006,16:34) When he emptied himself he didnt stop being God, thats foolishness.
To WorshippingJesus.A foolish statement is one that is not supported/contradicts by scripture.
Jesus is and was the Word of God.
Do you notice the word “OF”?
Do you believe that he is “OF” God because you can't believe that he is “OF” and believe that the is YHWH as well. You can't believe that he is the only true God (the source) and the image too. In fact as a Christian we should believe that he came from God and is of God.
Your teaching is non-scriptural and because of that, it is better to avoid such teachings. They are not of the truth.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me.Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.WorshippingJesus your doctrine cannot be reconciled with the above scriptures, but the truth agrees with ALL scripture.
Therefore I say that your doctrine is not true and people should be wary of your teaching.
Quote Cult Buster belongs to the Mother of all Cults, the Trinity. Most other cults rebelled from her and are the daughters of Babylon. So I here by name him Cult Truster as he trusts in the Mother of all Cults.
Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.Cult Truster, you need to free from his cult in order to even try freeing others.
Those who are already free are not in a cult. They are free because the truth sets them free.
t8
I am a witness here that he has only spoken scripture here.
Labeling Trinitarians a cult does not make you right. There are millions who believe in The Son of God and are saved who do not hold your view.
In fact most of these born again believers were saved in a trinitarian congregation or atmosphere.
What fruit does your Arian sect have?
I would like to know.
Quote To WorshippingJesus. A foolish statement is one that is not supported by scripture.
Jesus is and was the Word of God.
Do you notice the word “OF”?
Do you believe that he is “OF” God because you can't believe that he is “OF” and believe that the is YHWH as well. You can't believe that he is the only true God (the source) and the image too. In fact as a Christian we should believe that he came from God and is of God.
Your teaching is non-scriptural and because of that, it is better to avoid such teachings. They are not of the truth.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me.Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.WorshippingJesus your doctrine cannot be reconciled with the above scriptures, but the truth agrees with ALL scripture.
Therefore I say that your doctrine is not true and people should be wary of your teaching.
t8
There you go on your little tangen again. Stating that I believe that Jesus is the Father God.
So I guess you take a typo “of” Because I obvioulsy as you full well know dont believe Jesus is “Of”.
He is the Word and he is God. Not the Father. Not the Spirit. But the Son.
God. Godhead three in one. FatherSon and Holy Ghost.
Read your bible and accept all the scriptures t8.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 17 2006,16:46) Labeling Trinitarians a cult does not make you right. There are millions who believe in The Son of God and are saved who do not hold your view.
Correct, rather it is scripture that shows that the Trinity as a/the foundation is a cult.So if he labels us as a cult, then that doesn't make it right either (as you say). Rather it is scripture that shows our teaching to be what it is.
I know with full confidence I can agree with all scripture. I also do not condone that men give their faith over to a denomination or any cult or creed.
Yet those who belong to cults, denominations, and creeds accuse me and others who have come out of being a cult, when the truth is we are telling people to come out of the cults.
The only true culture is the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom is everlasting and it is the one I encourage all to be part of.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 17 2006,16:53) t8 There you go on your little tangen again. Stating that I believe that Jesus is the Father God.
So I guess you take a typo “of” Because I obvioulsy as you full well know dont believe Jesus is “Of”.
He is the Word and he is God. Not the Father. Not the Spirit. But the Son.
God. Godhead three in one. FatherSon and Holy Ghost.
Read your bible and accept all the scriptures t8.
To WorshippingJesus.Your teaching doesn't agree with this scripture. This is one of many.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.You say that Jesus is the one true God, but that contradicts John 17:3 and hundreds of other scriptures. It clearly says that the one true God is one and Jesus is another.
Quote When he emptied himself he didnt stop being God, thats foolishness. Did you never read that he “became flesh.” Not took on flesh or became part flesh or human, but he “became” flesh, human.
JOHN 1:14
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father…”David
Again can God stop being God. Jesus the man was born of a virgin. The Word which he is, is Jesus Spirit in the body.
Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
*God, the Son, was manifest in the flesh
*God, the Son, was justified in the Spirit
*God, the Son, was seen of Angels
*God, the Son, preached unto the Gentiles
*God, the Son, was believed on in the world
*God, the Son, received up into glory.
Quote Again can God stop being God.
My point exactly. Yet, Jesus emptied himself and “became flesh.” He didn't become part human. He became flesh, human. As you ask: Can God stop being God?Quote Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God [or “He” ACCORDING TO BIBLES that aren't the KJ] was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. As far as I can tell, this is the only Bible that inserts the word “God” where other Bibles have “He.” We know that the KJ version has a spurious verse or two inserted for no other reason than to strengthen the trinity doctrine. Because of this fact, it's a poor translation to use when arguing trinity, because the belief is that it is extremely biased.
And in the case of this scripture, that would seem to be the case as well.
david
Quote Correct, rather it is scripture that shows that the Trinity as a/the foundation is a cult. So if he labels us as a cult, then that doesn't make it right either (as you say). Rather it is scripture that shows our teaching to be what it is.
I know with full confidence I can agree with all scripture. I also do not condone that men give their faith over to a denomination or any cult or creed.
Yet those who belong to cults, denominations, and creeds accuse me and others who have come out of being a cult, when the truth is we are telling people to come out of the cults.
The only true culture is the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom is everlasting and it is the one I encourage all to be part of.
t8
Yea and who made you to be the God of scripture and its interpretation.
Do you have all truth?
There are many even millions who say you practice a cult.
Childlessly you make accusations of those having a trinitarian view as being part of the Catholic church, of which most all the trinitarians I know are not Catholics.
You Pick your little scriptures and label everyone who does not agree with you to be in a cult.
How are you any more right?
What gives you authority to say that you have the only truth?
Say it if you want and believe it.
But your statement concerning what you believe to be the truth in your eyes is just that, in your eyes.
I think this is an open forum and people come here to share thier belief if that is not true then say so.
II cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Last I checked the scriptures says that my body is the Temple of God.
Whos is it thats living in you t8?
Quote Again can God stop being God. My point exactly. Yet, Jesus emptied himself and “became flesh.” He didn't become part human. He became flesh, human. As you ask: Can God stop being God?
Quote
Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God [or “He” ACCORDING TO BIBLES that aren't the KJ] was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.As far as I can tell, this is the only Bible that inserts the word “God” where other Bibles have “He.” We know that the KJ version has a spurious verse or two inserted for no other reason than to strengthen the trinity doctrine. Because of this fact, it's a poor translation to use when arguing trinity, because the belief is that it is extremely biased.
And in the case of this scripture, that would seem to be the case as well.
david
Well david who is he. If it was God the Father then you are saying that God the Father was recieved up into Glory!
Hi W,
So how is it known whom you follow?
If your God is not the God of the bible then the rest is irrelevant surely?Heb 6
” 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.”
So faith towards God-does that mean your trinity God or God Himself?
Quote To WorshippingJesus. Your teaching doesn't agree with this scripture. This is one of many.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.You say that Jesus is the one true God, but that contradicts John 17:3 and hundreds of other scriptures. It clearly says that the one true God is one and Jesus is another
t8
Compare…John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Jer 10:10
But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.**This scripture is plainly speaking of the Son**
Jude
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.While you are at it why dont you acknowledge Jesus as the Father does.
Heb 1:6-9
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Quote Posted: Dec. 16 2006,22:25 ——————————————————————————–
Hi W,
So how is it known whom you follow?
If your God is not the God of the bible then the rest is irrelevant surely?Heb 6
” 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.”
So faith towards God-does that mean your trinity God or God Himself?
NH we follow the commandment of Jesus.
Matt 28:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.We also follow the teachings of the Apostles which undertood what Jesus meant by Baptising in the Godhead. Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Quote Jer 10:10
But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Where LORD is capalized in your Bible, the capitalization is to note that God's name used to be there and they changed it to LORD (and sometimes GOD).Quote I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.**This scripture is plainly speaking of the Son**
Believers in the Trinity doctrine hold that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (hou′tos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ. They assert that Jesus is “the true God and life everlasting.”
Many authoritative scholars do not accept this Trinitarian view. Cambridge University scholar B. F. Westcott wrote: “The most natural reference [of the pronoun hou′tos] is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle.” Thus, the apostle John had in mind Jesus’ Father. German theologian Erich Haupt wrote: “It has to be determined whether the [hou′tos] of the next proposition refers to the locally and immediately preceding subject . . . or to the more distant antecedent God. . . . A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”Karl Rahner says that “it should be noted that precisely in St. John’s First Epistle [Artwork—Greek characters] [ho theos, “the true God”] so often certainly means the Father that it must be understood of the Father throughout the Epistle, unless we are to suppose that some incomprehensible change has taken place in the subject referred to by [Artwork—Greek characters].”–Theological Investigations, Vol. 1 by Karl Rahner, Third printing: 1965, pages 136, 137.
Even A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Hou′tos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21).”
Often hou′tos, generally translated “this” or “this one,” does not refer to the immediately preceding subject of a phrase. Other scriptures illustrate the point. At 2 John 7, the same apostle and penman of the first letter wrote: “Many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This [hou′tos′] is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Here the pronoun cannot refer to the closest antecedent—Jesus. Obviously, “this” refers to those who denied Jesus. They collectively are “the deceiver and the antichrist.”
In his Gospel, the apostle John wrote: “Andrew the brother of Simon Peter was one of the two that heard what John said and followed Jesus. First this one [hou′tos] found his own brother, Simon.” (John 1:40, 41) It is evident that “this one” refers, not to the last person mentioned, but to Andrew. At 1 John 2:22, the apostle uses the same pronoun in a similar way.
Luke makes similar use of the pronoun, as seen at Acts 4:10, 11: “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This [hou′tos′] is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’” The pronoun “this” clearly does not refer to the man who was healed, though he is the one mentioned just before hou′tos. Certainly, “this” in verse 11 refers to Jesus Christ the Nazarene, who is the “cornerstone” on which the Christian congregation is founded.—Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:4-8.
Acts 7:18, 19 also illustrates the point: “There rose a different king over Egypt, who did not know of Joseph. This one [hou′tos] used statecraft against our race.” “This one” who oppressed the Jews was, not Joseph, but Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.
Such passages confirm the observation made by Greek scholar Daniel Wallace, who says that for Greek demonstratives, “what might be the nearest antecedent contextually might not be the nearest antecedent in the author’s mind.”
Quote Quote
Jer 10:10
But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.Where LORD is capalized in your Bible, the capitalization is to note that God's name used to be there and they changed it to LORD (and sometimes GOD).
Quote
I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.**This scripture is plainly speaking of the Son**
Believers in the Trinity doctrine hold that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (hou′tos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ. They assert that Jesus is “the true God and life everlasting.”
Many authoritative scholars do not accept this Trinitarian view. Cambridge University scholar B. F. Westcott wrote: “The most natural reference [of the pronoun hou′tos] is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle.” Thus, the apostle John had in mind Jesus’ Father. German theologian Erich Haupt wrote: “It has to be determined whether the [hou′tos] of the next proposition refers to the locally and immediately preceding subject . . . or to the more distant antecedent God. . . . A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”Karl Rahner says that “it should be noted that precisely in St. John’s First Epistle [Artwork—Greek characters] [ho theos, “the true God”] so often certainly means the Father that it must be understood of the Father throughout the Epistle, unless we are to suppose that some incomprehensible change has taken place in the subject referred to by [Artwork—Greek characters].”–Theological Investigations, Vol. 1 by Karl Rahner, Third printing: 1965, pages 136, 137.
Even A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Hou′tos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21).”
Often hou′tos, generally translated “this” or “this one,” does not refer to the immediately preceding subject of a phrase. Other scriptures illustrate the point. At 2 John 7, the same apostle and penman of the first letter wrote: “Many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This [hou′tos′] is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Here the pronoun cannot refer to the closest antecedent—Jesus. Obviously, “this” refers to those who denied Jesus. They collectively are “the deceiver and the antichrist.”
In his Gospel, the apostle John wrote: “Andrew the brother of Simon Peter was one of the two that heard what John said and followed Jesus. First this one [hou′tos] found his own brother, Simon.” (John 1:40, 41) It is evident that “this one” refers, not to the last person mentioned, but to Andrew. At 1 John 2:22, the apostle uses the same pronoun in a similar way.
Luke makes similar use of the pronoun, as seen at Acts 4:10, 11: “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This [hou′tos′] is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’” The pronoun “this” clearly does not refer to the man who was healed, though he is the one mentioned just before hou′tos. Certainly, “this” in verse 11 refers to Jesus Christ the Nazarene, who is the “cornerstone” on which the Christian congregation is founded.—Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:4-8.
Acts 7:18, 19 also illustrates the point: “There rose a different king over Egypt, who did not know of Joseph. This one [hou′tos] used statecraft against our race.” “This one” who oppressed the Jews was, not Joseph, but Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.
Such passages confirm the observation made by Greek scholar Daniel Wallace, who says that for Greek demonstratives, “what might be the nearest antecedent contextually might not be the nearest antecedent in the author’s mind.”
David
Sorry, man made dogma.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
