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Hi W,
You quote
“5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
[6] And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, and let all the angels of God worship him.
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.”So clearly, following the sequence, his begettal was prior to his partaking of flesh and coming into the world. He was sent into the world so do not confuse him with the One who sent him as His servant.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 12 2006,22:13) Hi,
Jesus never taught about a trinity God and neither did the apostles and prophets.
So to teach this one has to stand on the teachings of mere vain and ignorant men.
It came from the mouths of the enemies of God and we surely should not follow them.
Same old argument eh Nick?So tell me, is there God? Obviously yes.
Is there a Son, Jesus? Obviously yes. And look at this, Jesus prayed Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.What was this glory? Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. He was God.Now tell me also, is there a Holy Spirit? The answer is obviously yes. Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.
Did Jesus send His Father to Earth? No, He sent the Holy Spirit, who incidently is a “He”. Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
I know that the word trinity is not used here, but trinity is only a word to describe the 3 in 1 aspect of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
It is a far greater concern that people still call the Bible the Word of God, which was a name given only to Jesus.
Is Jesus God? Yes He is, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. We know that Jesus WAS God from the verses below.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.Jesus prayed Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.What was His former glory?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 21 2006,21:16) Nick! So are you saying was God and was to be worshipped but now he is not?
Hi W,
There is only one God.
There is only one God who is worshiped.
There other Elohim, who are called Elohim because God calls them Elohim in scripture and for no other reason.The Word did not have his own throne upon which he received worship in heaven and those who translated the NIV suggesting Is 6 shown in Jn 12 was Jesus on his own throne are away with the fairies.
Hi Oxy,
If you were presented with a bible which you never knew of and read it would you find a trinity expressed there?Or do you grasp this concept because it has been presented to you and seems logical.
We have no right to teach what the bible does not teach, and it does not TEACH of a trinity.
A lot of the logic aligned with trinity theory is about as flawed as going to a port to travel by sea to another country and finding no boat waiting for us we accept the offer of buying some train tickets.
If something is not written
and we cannot quite grasp it
we must wait till that understanding comes
and not built our own constructs from outside the bible to explain it
lest they be found offensive by Him that they concern.In Isaiah 6:1-10 the prophet Isaiah recorded an experience where he saw, heard and interacted with the YHWH of Hosts, sitting on His throne:
Isaiah 6:1-10
1In the year that king Uzziah died I [Isaiah] saw also the LORD [YHWH] sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.John tells us that it was the pre-incarnate Yahshua that Isaiah saw:
John 12:37-41
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.The “Him” in John 12:41 can only be the pre-incarnate Yahshua, as He is clearly identified at the subject of the passage in verse John 12 v37. The narrative in John is not exegetically complex, far from it. The context of the passage makes it clear that John is stating that Isaiah saw the glory of the pre-incarnate Messiah Himself in Isaiah 6. And it irrelavent whether John 12:41 is translated:
“Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.” (NIV)
or
“These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him” (NASB)
….because the “his” and “him” in question can only be applicable to Yahshua! It’s an issue of identity – Isaiah had seen the glory of YHWH, but John says that Isaiah had seen the glory of the Logos, therefore…
Yahshua is YHWH.
It's a no-brainer.
Hi Is 1.18,
Is this written
or do we have to read between the lines
to discover the Son is also the Father?If it requires more brains to go beyond scripture then I am happy being simple.
Hi Is 1.18
“41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”Do you really believe Jesus had a throne of his own in heaven playing court with Seraphim all around?
Do princes have thrones?
Dan 9
” 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times”Did the so nameless third person of the trinity have such a throne too in heaven for fairness sake?
In John's inspired opinion Isaiah saw the pre-incarnate Yahshua, as described In Isaiah 6:1-10. This is a fact.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 22 2006,04:45) In Isaiah 6:1-10 the prophet Isaiah recorded an experience where he saw, heard and interacted with the YHWH of Hosts, sitting on His throne: Isaiah 6:1-10
1In the year that king Uzziah died I [Isaiah] saw also the LORD [YHWH] sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.John tells us that it was the pre-incarnate Yahshua that Isaiah saw:
John 12:37-41
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.The “Him” in John 12:41 can only be the pre-incarnate Yahshua, as He is clearly identified at the subject of the passage in verse John 12 v37. The narrative in John is not exegetically complex, far from it. The context of the passage makes it clear that John is stating that Isaiah saw the glory of the pre-incarnate Messiah Himself in Isaiah 6. And it irrelavent whether John 12:41 is translated:
“Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.” (NIV)
or
“These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him” (NASB)
….because the “his” and “him” in question can only be applicable to Yahshua! It’s an issue of identity – Isaiah had seen the glory of YHWH, but John says that Isaiah had seen the glory of the Logos, therefore…
Yahshua is YHWH.
It's a no-brainer.
I did. You are welcome to address the key points, which are.1. In Isaiah 6:1-10 the prophet Isaiah recorded an experience where he saw, heard and interacted with the YHWH of Hosts, sitting on His throne.
2. John tells us, in John 12:37-41, that it was in fact the pre-incarnate Yahshua that Isaiah saw, heard and interacted with.
3. Yahshua is clearly identified at the subject of John's passage, in v37.
4. Isaiah had seen the glory of YHWH, but John wites that Isaiah had seen the glory of the pre-incarnate Logos, therefore logically Yahshua is YHWH.
Dealing strictly with the two narratives, which of these points are wrong?, and why?
Hi Is 1.18
You say
“2. John tells us, in John 12:37-41, that it was in fact the pre-incarnate Yahshua that Isaiah saw, heard and interacted with.”
Not so
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