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Hi Oxy,
According to Holy Scripture;
God does not change
So if God became flesh scripture would be broken.
And you theory about us being like God would be a bit silly
if God only became flesh 2000 years ago would it not?Hi Oxy,
So God was not the one in the form of God. He is God.
God did not compare himself with God. He is GodHow do you turn the reply notifier off on this topic? I unticked it in the email settings, but they still keep coming.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 08 2006,21:45) Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 08 2006,23:54) But as Nick has pointed out, he is referred to as a God.
Hello Elidad,
Can you please point me to a verse in the Bible where Yahshua is referred to as “a God”?Thanks
Hi Is 1:18, Happy to oblige. How about Hebrews 1:8 as others have already pointed out?“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” (Hebrews 1:8-9)
Let's consider this reference a little more closely. It is one that has been wrongly used to support trinitarian theology. Interestingly enough, such theology does recognise that this reference refers to Jesus as God, but goes too far by insisting that it is referring to 'the God'. It is alleged that because the verse addresses Jesus as “God”, He must therefore be a part of a Triune “godhead”.
However, as we shall see, that conclusion goes one big step beyond what is actually written.
We note first that, in John 17:3, Jesus addresses His Father as “THE ONLY TRUE GOD“. In the same prayer He also carefully identifies Himself as distinct from the “one true God”, by whom He is sent (delegated) to perform the task of glorifying His Father's name on earth.
This verse from John, should be enough in itself, to remind us to tread a little more carefully with the reference in Hebrews 1:8. However if we need more, it is contained in the immediate context in verse 9.
There we read two things which make it quite clear that Jesus is NOT the supreme deity; i.e. Yahweh, the Almighty God, the Father.
1. JESUS IS “ANOINTED”.
This word “anointed”, points us directly back to the OT prophecies about the Messiah. (Messiah as you well know is an Anglicised form of the Hebrew word for “anointed one”, which is directly equivalent to the Greek “christos”, and our English “Christ”) Reference to those prophecies will quickly reveal that the Messiah is NOT the ONE GOD of the OT. Instead He is clearly described as someone else, quite distinct and separate from God.2. JESUS HAS BEEN ANOINTED BY HIS GOD!
This confirms again that, although addressed as “God“, Jesus is NOT Himself the supreme God. Instead, He also worships that God, as the one who has anointed Him with a (delegated) authority to rule over His (future) Kingdom.ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATIONS
Hebrews 1:8-9 is a direct quotation from Psalm 45:6-7. In verse 6, in place of “Thy throne, O God” the RSV has “Your Divine throne”. And a marginal note in the RSV offers a further possible alternative as – “Your throne is a throne of God”. The NEB has “Your throne is like God's throne”.As I am not a trained Hebrew Scholar, I won't try to resolve the reason why the translators feel it necessary to offer these alternatives. Let's merely note in passing, that if correct, they only serve to emphasise what is already clear from verse 7 ….. that there is a distinction drawn between Jesus and God. The “anointed one” is NOT Himself the Supreme God, but a worshipper of that God.
It takes a lot of double talk to get around what is here written. As Jesus said to his Acccuser, “it is written“.
Cheers
Elidad
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 09 2006,01:22) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Sep. 09 2006,01:05) Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Interesting that in vs 10 the writer of Hebrews applied to Yahshua an OT verse that was written in direct reference to the Most High God, YHWH (Ps 102:25).What do you make of that HICITC?
Hi Is 1.18
Ps 102
“19For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth;20To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
21To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem;
22When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.
23He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.
24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”
Is there any doubt about to whom this was originally written? God the Father.
Hebrew 1.10
” 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:”is here applied to the Son of God.
So God has shown something here. Hebrews does not deny Ps 102 but shows that it ALSO can be applied to the Son of God.
Does that mean they are the same being?
No.
A son cannot be his father too.We must realise the narrowness is in us
and let God enlarge our minds.Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 09 2006,04:05) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 08 2006,21:45) Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 08 2006,23:54) But as Nick has pointed out, he is referred to as a God.
Hello Elidad,
Can you please point me to a verse in the Bible where Yahshua is referred to as “a God”?Thanks
Hi Is 1:18, Happy to oblige. How about Hebrews 1:8 as others have already pointed out?“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” (Hebrews 1:8-9)
Let's consider this reference a little more closely. It is one that has been wrongly used to support trinitarian theology. Interestingly enough, such theology does recognise that this reference refers to Jesus as God, but goes too far by insisting that it is referring to 'the God'. It is alleged that because the verse addresses Jesus as “God”, He must therefore be a part of a Triune “godhead”.
However, as we shall see, that conclusion goes one big step beyond what is actually written.
We note first that, in John 17:3, Jesus addresses His Father as “THE ONLY TRUE GOD“. In the same prayer He also carefully identifies Himself as distinct from the “one true God”, by whom He is sent (delegated) to perform the task of glorifying His Father's name on earth.
This verse from John, should be enough in itself, to remind us to tread a little more carefully with the reference in Hebrews 1:8. However if we need more, it is contained in the immediate context in verse 9.
There we read two things which make it quite clear that Jesus is NOT the supreme deity; i.e. Yahweh, the Almighty God, the Father.
1. JESUS IS “ANOINTED”.
This word “anointed”, points us directly back to the OT prophecies about the Messiah. (Messiah as you well know is an Anglicised form of the Hebrew word for “anointed one”, which is directly equivalent to the Greek “christos”, and our English “Christ”) Reference to those prophecies will quickly reveal that the Messiah is NOT the ONE GOD of the OT. Instead He is clearly described as someone else, quite distinct and separate from God.2. JESUS HAS BEEN ANOINTED BY HIS GOD!
This confirms again that, although addressed as “God“, Jesus is NOT Himself the supreme God. Instead, He also worships that God, as the one who has anointed Him with a (delegated) authority to rule over His (future) Kingdom.ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATIONS
Hebrews 1:8-9 is a direct quotation from Psalm 45:6-7. In verse 6, in place of “Thy throne, O God” the RSV has “Your Divine throne”. And a marginal note in the RSV offers a further possible alternative as – “Your throne is a throne of God”. The NEB has “Your throne is like God's throne”.As I am not a trained Hebrew Scholar, I won't try to resolve the reason why the translators feel it necessary to offer these alternatives. Let's merely note in passing, that if correct, they only serve to emphasise what is already clear from verse 7 ….. that there is a distinction drawn between Jesus and God. The “anointed one” is NOT Himself the Supreme God, but a worshipper of that God.
It takes a lot of double talk to get around what is here written. As Jesus said to his Acccuser, “it is written“.
Cheers
Elidad
Elidad, you have not given me a verse that calls Yahshua “A” God.Proj de ton uion o qronoj sou o qeoj, pros de ton huion ho thronos sou ho theos, (lit. “but regarding the Son [He says], the throne of you the God. . . .”). Both grammatically and contextually is to see the articular nominative qeoj, theos as carrying vocative force of direct address: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.” This is the overwhelming consensus among objective scholarship. And this is why the translating teams of the 20 English versions listed on BibleGateway render this verse as follows:
1. NIV
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.2. NAS
8But of the Son He says,”YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.3. MSG
But he says to the Son, You're God, and on the throne for good; your rule makes everything right. You love it when things are right; you hate it when things are wrong.4. AMP
8But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).5. NLT
8But to his Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal power is expressed in righteousness.6. KJV
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.7. ESV
8But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.8. CEV
But God says about his Son, “You are God, and you will rule as King forever! Your royal power brings about justice.9. NKJV
8 But to the Son He says:“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.10. KJ21
8But unto the Son He saith, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Thy Kingdom.11. ASV
8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.12. YLT
8and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy reign.13. DARBY
8but as to the Son, Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age, and a sceptre of uprightness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.14. NLV
8 But about His Son, He says, “O God, Your throne will last forever. Whatever You say in Your nation is right and good.15. HCSB
8 but about the Son: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.16. NIRV
8 But here is what he says about the Son. “You are God. Your throne will last for ever and ever. Your kingdom will be ruled by what is right.17. WYC
8 But to the Son he saith, God, thy throne is into the world of world [into the world of worlds]; a rod of equity is the rod of thy realm;18. WE
8But here is what God says about his Son: `O God, you will sit and rule for ever. You will rule in the right way.19. NIVUK
8But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom.20. TNIV
8 But about the Son he says, “Your th
rone, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.None render Ho theos as “A God”, that would be bad grammar.
Regarding context:
HEBREWS 1:1-11
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
7And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9″YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”This short passage records these things about Yahshua:
1.He made the world(s) (v2)
2.He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His [Father’s] nature (v3)
3.He “upholds all things by the word of His power” – He sustains the entire Universe. Its estimated that 100,000,000 solar systems exist, each with approximately 100,000,000 planetary bodies and Yahshua sustains every atom!
4.All the angels of God worship Him. Angels are forbidden to worship anyone But God (Rev 22:8-9).
5.The pre-incarnate Word of God is clearly identified as having “laid the foundations of the earth” the Heavens are also “the works of HIS hands” in v10. This is a quote from Psa 102:25 – and is a verse written about YHWH.
6.He is immutable (v12)None of these could be true of any being of inferior ontology to Almighty God. In fact a sharp distinction is drawn between Yahshua and angels, and there are no beings with ontology intemediate to God and angels described in scripture. Hebrews 1:8 (the correct rendering) fits naturally and harmoniously within the context of this passage.
The Father calls Yahshua “God” because He is….it's as simple as that.
Blessings
I agree with you that the “trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of the scriptures. In Matthew 28:19 Jesus states: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. The emphasis is “in the name of” and that name is “Jesus”. The name Jesus when translated means “Jehovah is salvation”. God's purpose for this world is the salvation of His children from the consequences of sin. The Father and the Son are one in this purpose. The Holy Ghost is not a third person but is God's personality or Spirit. (1 Co. 2:10-11)
We see the Apostle Peter baptized in the name of Jesus in Acts 2:38. This implies oneness in the purpose of salvation and not trinity. The name is not three different names but one and that name is “Jesus”.
God revealed to us who Jesus is through the Apostle Peter in Matthew 16:13-17 and that is that he is “the Christ the Son of the living God”. If Jesus claimed to be God, He would be contradicting what God our Father has revealed to us through these scriptures.
I know my Lord is worthy of all praise and without him we could not be reconciled to our Father. He is not God but a man who is the express image of God's person. (Hebrews 1:3)
Hi Is 1.18
So forgetting the nonbiblical word”ontological” and looking at what you showed us.Jesus is the image of God, the radiance and representation of God.
But somehow you say that means he is the equal to that which he images.
I don't get it.Hi Oxy,
You can make sense of this bad translation in other versions.
eg NASB
” 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, “Hi all, my first post here since I've thought about this subject fairly extensively. Here's my take..
Christ is the Word that was in the beginning with God (residing in the bosom of God) and proceeded forth from the mouth of God as the active creative force of all creation. 'He is before all things and by him all things consist'.
Jesus is the Son of Man. He is the second man Adam.
When 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us'..I think it important to note that John the Baptist was a witness to that light. This witness came to John when he baptized Jesus and the heavens opened as the Spirit of God descended upon him like a dove.
Messiah in the O.T. is the same for Christ in the N.T. and both mean: Anointed One. The one who is being anointed. It was not long after Jesus' anointing (possibly his own baptisim in the Holy Spirit and fire…that now enables him to baptize his own in that same anointing)..whereby he proclaims, 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me for he has anointed me to loose the heavy burdens, set the captives free' etc.
Likewise, his baptisim (and subsequent anointing) marked the demarcation line between his personal life and his public ministry.
So Jesus was not born as The Anointed One (Christ). He was born as the second man Adam. Now I realize this is tight and I only mention it, but in jewish ledgend, namely the tulmad and kabbalah..I read something like this: when Adam partook from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and he was stripped of his glory for disobedience..it was though his soul fell into a prodominance where his physical sense were opened and superceded spiritual reality. Now the ledgend goes that a soul copy was held back. If this were true, Jesus as the second man Adam may be more literal than we may have presumed??
In supposing, the holy seed birthed by the virgin Mary, was not Christ the Lord, but the second man Adam, of whom the Messiah-Christ would later incarnate (take possession of) at the baptism in Jordan?
Without going into much more length, I personally think of God as a Triune-Being. Triune in that there is a distinction in the work or offices..even as hinted at in 1 Corinth 12:4-6..namely, 'the same Spirit' 'the same Lord' and 'the same God'. If I had to put a word-label on these distinctions, I would call the Son-Being: Word, the Spirit-Being: Wisdom, and the Father-Being: Will.
Jesus as the Christ said he came forth out from the Father. Ephesians says, he works all things after the counsel of his own will. Psalms says, he sent his word and healed them.
Other indicators would be that we are made in the image and likeness of God. Jesus said, Hear oh Isreal, the Lord our God is One. so there would be only a slight variation in interpretation when considering whether God is three persons in one Being, or one person in three beings.
When I consider tri-fold verses of teachings, I can seem to see a correlation between the triune being of man and the Triune Being of God. One has to always bear in mind that just as we bear in ourselves a triune being, this triune make-up is indivisible. God is One. As the Word of God Jesus could rightly say, when you have seen me you seen the Father..and at the same time say, I go to the Father.
The world of the Will of God is present in the world of his Word. 'The Father in me, he does the works'. Jesus said, I of my own self can do nothing. Jesus only did and said as his Father willed.
When the holy Will spoke 'Light Be', that same Word which resided in the bosom of the Will and was God, traversed a state of Being. The unspoken Word became alive and full of power..'and all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made'. This is the Cosmic Word of God that gives existence to existence itself (as we know it). We were created into being by the Uncreated. The Word became manifested. The original manifestation was of an invisible sort, to us who have descended from the curse of the first man Adam. Angelic beings are still present, although we no longer see them (unless revealed in a special manner of course).
tri-factor verses. 'thine is the kingdom (Son). the power (Holy Spirit) and the glory (Father.
'now abides these three, faith (Son), hope (Holy Spirit) and love' (Father).
'I am the way (Son), the truth (Holy Spirit) and the life' (Father)
'that you may prove what is that good (Son), acceptible (Holy Spirit) and perfect will of God (Father).
The Body of Christ has been married into the human family by the Son of Man and his sacrifice on the cross. The Son then becomes known to the souls of men as 'the way' into 'the kingdom' which puts the soul of man on grounds with 'the good' will of God..as happens by way of 'faith'. This is the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ in a sort of nut-shell.
With the ministry of the Holy Spirit comes 'the power' and 'hope' which acts as 'an anchor of our souls'.
Whereas the Word challenges our minds towards faith in Jesus Christ, the ministry of the Holy Spirit deals with the transformation of our souls..our sentient (feeling) being.
I find it interesting that the Holy Spirit is the one who can be quenched..as if the world of the feelings of God. The Holy Spirit is also peace and joy, and only one that can be blasphemed against of which sin cannot be forgiven.
I find it interesting also that Jesus never claimed to 'will' anything..and yet did so much.
Another interesting observation is that through Jesus Christ and his shed-blood, we are born again in our spirit-beings..of which is the heart of our essence. And it appears that the ministration of the Father..who is the supreme essence of the Godhead by virtue of his Will..the Father's ministry, while working through his Son by the Holy Spirit..may have to do with the glorification of our corruptible bodies.
So in working from spirit to soul to body…it is a reciprocal fellowship that works from the inside-out. Triune to triune.
I could be wrong, but these are some thoughts I have on the subject:)
(AMP) Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
(CEV) Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.
(ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(GNT+) ος3739 R-NSM εν1722 PREP μορφη3444 N-DSF θεου2316 N-GSM υπαρχων5225 V-PAP-NSM ουχ3756 PRT-N αρπαγμον725 N-ASM ηγησατο2233 V-ADI-3S το3588 T-ASN ειναι1511 V-PXN ισα2470 A-NPN θεω2316 N-DSM
(KJV+) Who,3739 being5225 in1722 the form3444 of God,2316 thought2233 it not3756 robbery725 to be1511 equal2470 with God:2316
(MKJV) who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
(RV) who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,
(Webster) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(YLT) who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
Her's a few more versions for the mix. Seems to me it's saying that because He was in the form of God, did not have to strive to try and achieve equality.
Hi jahman, not too bad on the whole. A bit murky round the middle with the 2nd Adam touch, but on the whole, not bad.
It should be remembered that even as a child Jesus was about His Father's business. Also, He never sinned, even as a child. Being a parent I totally believe that that is impossible for anyone except the Son of God.
Hi and welcome jah,
Clearly you have approached scripture looking for triune evidence.Why would you do this unless it was a deeper truth to you than what is revealed in the Scriptures?
God is one
He has a son.Hi Oxy,
Look at the greek and you will see that
the sense of the verse is
that the Word
did not have equality by right and
decided not to take equality by force.Did any of the writers ever try to clarify this issue in the scriptures we have? Did they include an explanation in any epistle to the confused and radically monotheistic Jews? Think of the reaction the Jews would have to the concept of the trinity. They would probably need a full epistle just explaining this to them. They never thought that Jesus was claiming to be God himself, Yahweh.
The reason is because everyone the apostles taught grasped the following concepts and were not confused until centuries after the apostles were dead. When the Catholic church arose and falsely clarified the issue for the masses.
The Truth:
Jesus was the word of God. The firstborn over all creation. The one who at God's side assisted in creation and spoke on God's behalf. Jesus was the one who revealed the invisible God to the patriarchs just as he came and did for the whole world as the Messiah. Jesus was God's only unique son who was begotten by his Father to be exactly like the Father so that he could precisely and accurately reveal himself to man. His son Jesus he then sent to be mankinds Messiah and while Jesus was among man he claimed to be none other than the word of God, the Son of God and the Messiah. God gave his son all authority and that is why Jesus is confused with the Father.
Because
1) He was begotten to be just like his father in nature, form, image and splendor
2) he was given all authority by the Father when he made his son both Lord and Christ, in order to carry out God's will. He was therefor able to perform all the tasks that only God could perform normally if he had not shared his glory and power with his son.The analogy of Joseph and the Pharaoh is a perfect illustration of this concept. After all enemies are placed underneath the Messiah and Son of God's feet then the Son will give back to his Father all authority and then The Father himself will rule his people.
The point is God is holy and perfect and cannot be in the presence of sin. He used his perfect son to carry out the restoration and reconciliation of all things so that the Father can once again be among us and we too can be his sons when Jesus will proclaim us his brothers and then we will share in his inheritence.
I hope this helps.
In Him,
Mercy
Hi Mercy,
Yes the glorious Son of God came.But before he did he emptied himself
and partook of weak flesh
so that he could be exactly as we are,
or we could not follow him
growing up in subservience
to his mother and foster father
and he was a vessel for the Father
to be later filled into him
so God could be revealed
in nature and power to mankind.
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