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Hi MJ,
You say the Spirit is a separate person.Is 61 1f quoted by Jesus about his ministry
“”1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;”
So Jesus says he was anointed by God with His own Spirit.
So how can this be another nameless, and rather neglected, Person in God?Quote (mattyjay @ Aug. 30 2006,22:06) The Doctrine of the Trinity is our best description of a God who is beyond human conception;
To mattyjay.Scripture is a much better source when describing God who is beyond human comprehension.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.Why can't we let scripture show us who God is. There are plenty of scriptures that describe what God is like. Why in addition to scripture do we need Creeds, idols, or any other man-made thing?
Did you know that God is not a man and has never been a man.
Was Jesus a man?
Is Jesus still God, even if God is not and never was a man?Hi MJ,
Your theory is that
God
is a
Trinity.
Then in accord with true scientific honesty I am sure you would be happy to put this theory to a simple test of resilience.
All I ask is that you are willing to test this theory by substitution.
Wherever the Word
“God”
appears in the bible it should be possible to substitute the words
“Trinity God”
without disturbing the meaning.So can we start with perhaps Jn 3,16
Fair enough?
” 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Or what about Acts 10.38” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”
there is no denying on our side of the Son of God whom we call JesusChrist Nick. Its the unbiblical “god the son” that should be resisted. Check it out Nick. Still in darkness on this Nick?
i suggest that we must read the whole chapter of 1john 5:7 in order to understand the oness of GOd, dont stop on verse 7
Hi WS2,
God is One.Jesus showed us God is his Father
Jn 8.54
” 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”If Jesus is God then who is the God of Jesus?
Jn 20
” 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”This is for Nick Hassan and Wind_slasher52. Please ignore my ignorance about what you may have already posted, but I would like to know who you believe Jesus to be?
And is he God?Quote (wind_slasher52 @ Aug. 30 2006,07:49) i suggest that we must read the whole chapter of 1john 5:7 in order to understand the oness of GOd, dont stop on verse 7
Hi wind_slasher52.If you are going to change this discussion to Oneness doctrine, can I suggest that you start up a new discussion called “Oneness” or something descriptive like that.
Oneness doctrine has been discussed in other posts, but I think it should have its own discussion.
Quote (Brian B. @ Aug. 30 2006,08:13) This is for Nick Hassan and Wind_slasher52. Please ignore my ignorance about what you may have already posted, but I would like to know who you believe Jesus to be?
And is he God?
Hi BB,
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.Hi MJ,
You say
“The fact that Matthew emphasises the worship of Jesus first is the main implication within this gospel that Jesus was regarded as more than just a rabbi and more than what the Jews of the time thought the Messiah was: they now regard Jesus as the object of worship, which a Jew would only give to YHWH/Adonai.”
You will know that the word translated as
“worship” here is
“proskueno” 4352
which is the same as used in the sense of
'bow down to' or 'prostrate before'
as a matter of respect
in seven of the times, by the choice of the translators, that the word is used in Scripture.Jesus defined true worship as being of the Father
in Jn 4.23
“23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”Greetings wind_slasher52
Quote (wind_slasher52 @ Aug. 30 2006,01:25) QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE GODHEAD …
4. Do these titles used in Mat. 28:19 mean that there are 3 separate and distinct person in the Godhead? No. They refer to 3 offices, roles or relationship to creation or humanity.
5. Does the Bible use the word three when referring to God ? Only once in 1 Jn 5:7. It speaks of the Father, The Word (instead of the Son) and the Holy Ghost…and it concludes that “these three are one”.
…
9. What did Jesus mean when He said to Philip ? “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father (Jn 14:9) ? Jesus is the express (full) image (substance, revelation ) of (Spirit and invisible) God. Hebrews 1:3,10. Does the Bible say that there are 2 persons in the Godhead ? No
11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person ? Yes, in Jesus Christ 2Cor 4:4, Col 1:19; 2:9, Heb 1:3
…
15. Did Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father ? Yes, Isa 9:6, 63:16
16. When God said in Gen 1:26 “Let us make man in our image and likeness” , was He speaking to another person in the Godhead ? no, He was speaking in a prophetic speech concerning His plan to create man in His image in likeness. The plan God has already started and its not finished yet. The express image and likeness of God with which man will be made to conform is in Christ Jesus. He is the perfect pattern of God’s likeness and image. One day God’s plan of creating man in His image and likeness (Like Jesus Christ) will be completed and finished.
…
19. Does the bible says that Jesus is the almighty? Yes. Revelations 1:8
…
22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelations 4:223. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that he was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the old testament incarnate.
…
26. does the bible say that God, who is a word, was made flesh? Yes. John 1:1 – 1427. for what purpose God was manifested into flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9-14
28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. 1 timothy 3:16
…
30. Does the bible say that there is only but one Lord? Yes. Isa.45:18; Ephesians 4:5
…
33. How could the church belong to Jesus(Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God(1Cor. 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.34. Will God give his glory to another? No. Isa.42:8
…37. What is one thing that God cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2
…
39. How many names of the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9
40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9
41. Does the bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8
42. Why, then was Jesus able to walk upon the sea of Galilee(Matthew 14:25)? Because he is God the creator. Colosians 1:16
43. Is God the only one who can forgive sins ? Yes, Isa 43:25, Mk 2:7
44. Jesus forgave sins also in Mk 2:5-11, Because he is the same God the savior in the flesh
45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes, 1 Jn 5:20
…
48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus ? Yes Acts 7:5949. Did Thomas ever called Jesus God ? Yes Jn 20:28
50. How could Jesus be the saviour, when God the Father said in Isa 43:11”besides me there is no saviour? Because God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself. 2 Cor 5:19
51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us ? Yes, Mat 1:23
52. Did Jesus ever say that I and My Father are one ? Yes, Jn 10:30
…
56. Can trinitarians prove that 3 divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John ? Absolutely Not. The one omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person is visible and present. Jesus Christ the Lord. Mat 3:16-17
57. Does the Bible say that God shed His Blood ? Yes. Acts 20:28, 1Jn 3:16 God is able to do this because God had taken upon Himself a human body…. the body of Jesus Christ
58. The Bible teaches us that God is coming back with all His saints 1 Thes 3:13 Are two coming back ? No. Only one is coming back “ our great God and saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2:13
4. Do these titles used in Mat. 28:19 mean that there are 3 separate and distinct person in the Godhead? No.
The Father speaks of the ONE GOD.
The Son speaks of the ONE GOD's Son.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the ONE GOD, which operates in Christ, which in turn, operates in his church.5. Does the Bible use the word three when referring to God ?
The Bible NEVER uses three in ref. to GOD
Knowledge has increased … there is now so much evidence to show that
the “Comma Johanneum” / “Johannine Comma” i.e. 1 John 5.7 is an interpolation.
John did not write it
It came into the text around the 5th cent. It was a saying that was used to bolster the erroneous doctrine of the trinity.
This saying was written in the margin of some Mss. And eventually scribes either erroneously or deliberately added it to the text.
Do the research. As far back as the 17th cent. when the KJV was published, researchers have pointed out that 1 John 5.7 is an addition. Erasmus knew it was an interpolation; and made a silly promise allowing the Catholics to forge a Greek Ms. with this verse in it, and Erasmus because of his silly vow, added it to the Textus Receptus! It wasn't in his first two editions!9. What did Jesus mean when He said to Philip ? “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father (Jn 14:9) ?
Jesus is also the image of the invisible GOD! [Col 1.15]
Of course, the image of someone/something is NOT also the object itself!10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.
In fact, the Bible does not even speak of any person(s) in the Godhead! It doesn't use the phrase, person(s) in the Godhead!
11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person?
Again, the Bible doesn't use this terminology.
And none of the verses you supplied speak of 'the Godhead being revealed in anyone!'15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? … Isaiah 9:6; 63:16.
If you asking whether Isaiah say that the Messiah would be the one GOD, the Father?
Isaiah says no such thing! The Messianic King whom the ONE GOD, the Father, will enthrone [Isa 9.7] is called in the Hebrew of Isa 9:6, 'the father of the age' to come.
It is one of the epithets given to the Messiah. Verse 6 is speaking of the MessiahLikewise, the scriptures call Abraham, 'father'! [Gen 17.5, Josh 24.3, Luke 1.73, Acts 7.2,
Rom 4.16 the father of us all, etc]
Isaiah called Abraham, father! Isa 51.2 Isaiah also called Eliakim, father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
Just as this title does not make Abraham & Eliakim, Almighty
GOD; neither calling the Messiah,
'the father of the age', make him Almighty GOD!16. When God said, “Let us make man in our image” (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? NO!
It appears that He was simply speaking to His heavenly host as in Gen 3.22, 11.7, Isa 6.8
Nevertheless, GOD acted alone. He created all things by Himself … alone [Isa 44.24]19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? NO!
Rev 1.8 is speaking of the LORD GOD. [Even some Mss. actually have 'Lord God' in the Greek text]
Don't be fooled by trinitarian red-lettering.
John's salutation to Christ ends with the Amen in verse 7. Verse 8 speaks of Almighty GOD.22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.
And it wasn't the Messiah. The Messiah is depicted as being in the midst of the throne alongside the 24 elders & the 4 beasts. The Lamb that was slain takes the book out of the right hand of the One on the throne! [Rev 5.6-8]
23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that he was the first and the last?
Seeing that Jesus is GOD's ultimate Agent & Representative; he shares certain attributes/titles.
In Hebrew thinking, the Agent is even as the Principal whom the Agent represents. The Jews call this, The Law of Agency
Jesus is the Agent of Almighty GOD [The Principal].
Therefore, as the Agent, the Agent can be conferred the same titles and authority of the Principal. However, the Agent is still distinct from the PrincipalBesides the fact, the phrase 'first and last' in Rev. may have been used in a different sense then the phrase in Isaiah. Remember, GOD has NO beginning and He has no end! So the phrase is not being used in the sense of describing GOD as Almighty or Eternal. It is most probably being used in the sense that GOD knows completely everything to do with His plan for mankind from the beginning to the end. Compare the fact, that Jesus in like manner, is called the author and finisher of our faith [Heb 12.2]
Strangely enough, the Scriptures do speak of Incarnation i.e. god incarnate; in Acts 14:11-16. One should take the apostles' advice on this subject in vs. 15.
26. does the bible say that God, who is a word, was made flesh?
The Bible NEVER says that GOD is a word!!!
The Bible says that GOD's word was made flesh.
Incidentally, the majority of English translations before the KJV translated John 1:3-4 as:
(John 1:3-4) All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made. 4 In it was life; and the life was the light of men.In other words, William Tyndale plus others, brought out the sense of what John was talking about in his prologue. He is talking about GOD's word!
A word is an it! (Compare Isa 55.11) Not a person! Not Almighty GOD!
John 1:1-4 just like 1 John 1:1-3 (same writer) is speaking of the word of GOD.27. for what purpose God was manifested into flesh?
Hebrews 2:9-14 does NOT speak of GOD. It speaks of Jesus the Messiah, GOD's Son [v.9 But we see Jesus]; Even in v. 12 the Messiah speaks of singing praise to GOD alongside his brethren, in the midst of the church/congregation.
28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh?
Knowledge has increased. It appears now that 1 Tim 3.16 originally said
(1 Tim 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: He who was manifest in the flesh …Incidentally, even in the 17th cent., Isaac Newton wrote a treatise exposing the forgeries of
1 John 5.7 & 1 Tim 3.16.30. Does the bible say that there is only but one Lord?
Yes indeed. However, the word 'lord' is used in at least 3 different ways in Scripture.
It even has different Hebrew words to show the differences of meanings & use.LORD in capitals in the OT is GOD's name i.e. YAHWEH. [Appears over 6700 times]
Lord (capital L) in the OT is generally GOD's title, Adonai. [Appears 449 times]
Then there are the Hebrew words 'adon' & 'adoni'
'Adon' simply means lord, master or owner. It is used about 5 times when speaking of GOD; the other 25+ times it speaks of human masters/owners.Adoni which means 'my lord' or 'my master' appears 195 times in the OT including Psalms 110.1
It is never used in ref. to deity. It is used in ref. to humans and sometimes angels.
And it is used in Psalms 110.1 to speak of the Lord Messiah.The NT uses the Greek word 'kurios' for all the above usages/nuances of 'lord'
Kurios is used also for master and 'Sir!'Psalms 110.1 is used by Jesus of Nazareth & the Apostles as a prooftext defining the Lordship of the Messiah. The Hebrew word adoni, informs us that the Messiah no matter how highly exalted is nevertheless a human being, not deity.
Thus, Jesus of Nazareth is the Lord Messiah. He is NOT the Lord GOD.
He is NOT Adonai YAHWEH! He is Adonai YAHWEH's human son!Seeing that kurios in the NT is used for YAHWEH, Adonai, Adon, & Adoni, etc; one must look at the context to see in what sense is the word 'lord' being used. Is it speaking of the LORD GOD or is it speaking of a human being?
Is it speakig of a lord or a master? Is it being used to call someone 'Sir'?
Is it speaking of the Lord Messiah?Note the context!
(One cannot simply quote a OT verse which uses the word 'lord' and then quote a NT verse which uses the word 'lord' and tie the two together.
UPCI's so-called 'wheel of prophecy' appears to work based on this misconception & false equivalence!
The wheel ties some unrelated OT/NT verses together because they both used the word 'Lord'!)Therefore, Isa 45.18 speaks of the LORD GOD; whilst Eph 4.5 speaks of the one man whom the LORD GOD has made, Lord & Christ, Jesus of Nazareth!
The Lord GOD has made solely one man, Lord of all [Acts 2.36, 10.36] …
hence there is 'one Lord' i.e. one Lord Messiah [Col 3.24]
However, this does not change the fact that GOD will always be the LORD GOD; hence he will always be the Messiah's Lord & GOD!! [Matt 11.25, John 20.17, Rev 1.6, 3.12, 1 Cor 15.27, etc]33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)?
Because Jesus being GOD's Son has had all things delivered unto him. Jesus is the firstborn thus the heir of all things which includes the church.
[John 16.15, Eph 1.20-22, Heb 1.2, Matt 11.27, 28.18, John 3.35, 13.3, 17.2, 1 Cor 15.27]
(John 16:15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.34. Will God give his glory to another?
Isa 42.8 Context!
GOD will not give His glory to another except whom it has been foreordained for i.e.
Isa 42, verse 1 … the servant of GOD i.e. the Messiah. Read all 8 verses.
[See also Matt 12.18, John 17.1ff, 2 Pet 1.17]Acts 3.13 actually reads in the Greek that “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his servant Jesus;
The same Greek word is used in Acts 4.27,30 subtly translated 'child' by the trinitarians because of the obvious connotations it would have on their theology if they had correctly translated it 'servant' as in Acts 4.25.
The fact is in fulfilment of Isa 42, John 17.1ff, GOD has indeed glorified His servant, Jesus.37. What is one thing that God cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2
He al
so cannot die! The MT text of
Habakkuk 1:12 “Are you not from long ago, O YAHWEH? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O YAHWEH, for a judgment you have set it; and, O Rock, for a reproving you have founded it.”39. How many names of the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9
Note. LORD in caps hence:
(Zec 14:9) And YAHWEH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YAHWEH, and his name one.
Compare (Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH our God is one YAHWEH: or YAHWEH is one!41. Does the bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8
42. Why, then was Jesus able to walk upon the sea of Galilee(Matthew 14:25)?
Because he is God the creator.NOPE! Otherwise what does it make, Peter?? He walked on water! [Matt 14.29]
Is he thus also GOD the creator. Now we have three Creators!! GOD, Jesus & Peter (using your logic)
NO! OF COURSE NOT! Both Jesus and Peter walked on water by the power of Almighty GOD, the one Creator of the heavens and earth!
Everything that Jesus did, he did through the power of GOD. Jesus had no power of himself.
[Acts 2.22, 10.38, John 14.10, 5.19,30; 8.28]43. Is God the only one who can forgive sins ? Yes, Isa 43:25, Mk 2:7
44. Jesus forgave sins also in Mk 2:5-11, Because he is the same God the savior in the flesh!NOT SO! Otherwise what would it make the apostles. They could forgive sins also [John 20.23]
Remember, Mark 2.7 are the words of the disbelieving scribes. Not then the most reliable witnesses to use to inform us, who can & cannot forgive sins!
Jesus the Messiah demonstrated before all, that GOD had given him authority to forgive sins. (Mark 2:10) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power [AUTHORITY Gk. Exousia] on earth to forgive sins, …
Those who believed on him understood what GOD had done through him and glorified GOD accordingly.
(Mat 9:8) But when the multitude saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power [AUTHORITY Gk. Exousia] unto men.Jesus likewise gave such authority to his apostles to forgive sins.
Forgive = Remit … the very same Greek word is used, APHIEMI [John 20.23]45. Is Jesus the true God? NO!
1 John 5.20: Jesus the Son of GOD has given us an understanding that we may know the true GOD. Therefore keep from idols (verse 21)
Don't take my word for it. Let's hear it from Jesus himself:
(John 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father …
(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus ? NO!
Look again at Acts 7.59 in your Bible. You will notice that the word God is in italics. That means, it was added by the translators. The word for 'God' is not in the Greek text!
Read it thus: And they stoned Stephen, calling upon and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.49. Did Thomas ever called Jesus God ? Yes Jn 20:28
Study Exo 4.16, 7.1, Psalms 82, Exo 22:8-9,28.
When one understands how Almighty GOD could call Moses, 'God'; how the judges were called gods; how those to whom the unbroken word of GOD was sent were called gods by GOD! As stated by Christ himself. [John 10.34-36] Then one will understand in what sense Thomas could rightly call the resurrected Messiah, 'God'.Basically, men are called 'God'/elohim in scripture because as Almighty GOD's agents, they represent Him. The Messiah is GOD's Ultimate Agent & Representative.
See also Psalms 45.6-7
Let us not forget:
(John 20:17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(John 20:31) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.'God' in John 20:28 is therefore being used Messianicly.
Thomas because GOD raised Jesus from the dead, finally believes that Jesus is indeed the Messiah;
and in light of Psalms 45:6-7,11; 110:1; Thomas calls him 'my Lord & my God'
John recorded this so that we would believe alongside Thomas that Jesus is indeed the Christ, the Son of God, who has ascended to his GOD & Father, to the disciples' GOD & Father!
Thus, the Messiah, the Son of GOD has ascended to the ONE GOD, his Father50. How could Jesus be the saviour, when God the Father said in Isa 43:11 ”besides me there is no saviour?
In the same way that Othniel & Ehud were saviours [subtly translated as deliverer in Judg 3.9,15; however same Hebrew word]; in the same way that GOD gave Israel a saviour in 2 Kings 13.5; in the same way that GOD gave saviours in Neh 9:27; see also Isa 19.20, Obad 21.
There is no contradiction! These saviours did not contradict the fact that Almighy GOD alone is Saviour.Just as these men were raised up as saviours in times of need, GOD likewise (Acts 13:23) Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
There is no contradiction!GOD our Saviour raised up Christ on the scene to be the Saviour of the world.
(1 John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.There is no contradiction!
There is ONE GOD our Saviour, who raised up a man on the scene to be the Saviour of the world.
Hence, Jesus the Messiah is also our Saviour.
No contradiction!51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us ? NO!
It says that his name shall be called Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
That is the meaning of the name.
No doubt, through Christ Jesus, seeing that GOD was with him, GOD was indeed with us!
Compare: (Luke 7:16) And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
(Acts 10:38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.52. Did Jesus ever say that I and My Father are one ? Yes, Jn 10:30
And Jesus also prayed to GOD the Father that we be one even as he and the Father are one!
[John 17.11,21-22]56. Can trinitarians prove that 3 divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John ? Absolutely Not.
Matt 3.16-17 depicts the ONE GOD speaking from Heaven whilst His spirit descends upon the man Christ Jesus.
So we have:
ONE GOD, the Father; the man Jesus, GOD's Son; the Spirit is simply the spirit of the ONE GOD.Just as in the OT … the scriptures would speak of the spirit of the ONE GOD descending on Moses, the prophets, etc.
There is no trinity.
57. Does the Bible say that God shed His Blood ?
Knowledge has increased. It appears that Acts 20.28 as we know it today in the KJV is not in its original form.
It may have simply said “to feed the church of the Lord, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
The Greek text also was originally worded … the blood of His own i.e. His Son!
Also, again look at 1 John 3.16.
The words of God are in italics. That means, they were added by the translators. The Greek equiv. words are not in the Greek text!
Read it thus: Hereby perceive w
e the love, because he laid down his life for us: …58. The Bible teaches us that God is coming back with all His saints 1 Thes 3:13 Are two coming back ?
Jesus Christ is physically coming back in the glory of his Father. [Matt 16.27, Luke 9.26]
No doubt the invisible, omnipresent GOD will be present in & through Christ even as he was present during Christ's earthly ministry [2 Cor 5.19, John 14.10]BTW, 1 Thess 3.13 speaks of 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.'
And the Greek text of Titus 2:13 speaks of the appearing of the glory of the great GOD & our Saviour.Compare:
ASV: looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;NASB looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
NRSV while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Seeing that Jesus Christ is the brightness of GOD's glory [Heb 1.3];
his Coming/Appearing will therefore be the Appearing of the glory of the Great GOD our Saviour.
We are looking for the “glory” of God, which is stated clearly as being “Jesus Christ.”
(As well of course the fact that Christ will appear in GOD our Saviour's glory. [Matt 16.27, Lk 9.26])Jesus the Messiah, therefore, is the glory of God that we are waiting for, seeing that he indeed, is the brightness of GOD's Glory.
Titus 2.13 is talking about saying “no” to ungodliness while we wait for the appearing of Jesus Christ, who is the glory of God.================================================================
wind_slasher52, I hope the above is of edification to you as well as to other readers …
PS for those who are interested, the original 60 questions can be found at http://www.upci.org/doctrine/60Questions.asp
Thank you Adam,
Do you have more references to the Law of Agency because so many cannot grasp this concept and it causes them to make dangerous assumptions?Hi MJ,
You say at the beginning of your treatise:“• The Doctrine of the Trinity is a Biblical doctrine and maintains sound analysis, especially when looking at the Biblical scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, in the original languages and context;”
Surely if you wished us to believe you are going to do to make an openminded investigation you would not be presenting your conclusions as a starting point? You are here stating it at the beginning as a foundation of which you are to build. Surely the scriptures should be the true foundation as all others would be sand by comparison?
Lk 6
” 47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
The foundation on which you build is catholic doctrine. Are they your masters?
Hi MJ,
You quoted Matt 29.
“16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Eusebius said he had an original copy of Matthew's gospel in his library[later destroyed] and he quoted several times this verse as reading
“baptising in my name”
That seems to explain the behaviour of the apostles in Acts.
Hi ML,
You quote
Mk 14
'61(b)Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?”
62”I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”Then why do you not believe the one who is truth?
To say he is part of a trinity God
is to deny he can be with God
as the Son of God.Hi Mj,
You say speaking of the kenosis
“That goes to show how much Jesus gave up to come amongst us and how much choice was involved in humbling himself in obedience to the Father”What did he give up?
Did he give up his Godliness?
Did he give up his powers?
Did he become less than God, even less than the angels?Heb 2.5f
” 5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”
So in whose power was he working?
His own Godly power?
Or was he a vessel for God to dwell in and work through?God was in him and with him according to scripture.
Was he in and with himself?Hi MJ,
You said
“Jesus took it all one step further, showing the error of the high priest’s interpretations and revealing Jesus’ own deity in the process. In saying, “I am”, Jesus is immediately equating himself with God the I AM, or YHWH/Adonai.”It is difficult if the truth himself cannot make a simple affirmative statement in reply to a direct question without theologians descending on him to announce that in saying
“I am”
he is making a claim of deep significance, in fact claiming equality with God!
What sort of kangaroo court cannot let you answer simple questions with simple answers?
Besides is not God in fact YHWH
“I am who am”?
Then what of this other serious candidate PETER?
Acts 10.21
“21Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I AM he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?”v 28
” 26But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also AM a man.”Or John the Baptist
Acts 13” 25And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I AM? I AM not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I AM not worthy to loose.”
Or Paul,
Acts 23.6
” 6But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I AM a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I AM called in question.”Hi MJ,
You say
“Son of God (which means “equal to God”Then how come the Jews called God their father,
thus making themselves sons of God,
did not also have them claiming equality with God as well?” “The only Father we have is God himself.”
You speak of the deity of Christ and we know that a deity is a god. So you have two gods and if you declare the Spirit to be another deity, which trinitarians seem strangely loathe to do, that makes three.
And this statement of yours needs no elaboration by me
“It also showed that, through Jesus, we too can come to become sons (and daughters) of God. Does this mean we too can become the same as God?Technically yes: “
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