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Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 13 2006,00:32) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2006,00:42) T
E.g., John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.becomes
“For THE TRINITY so loved the world that THE TRINITY gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.You see, your belief actually breaks scripture.
Here are another 100 verses for you to consider.
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmHow does your theology stack up now?
Be honest.Is 1:18 could also learn something here if he were able to humble himself.
I don't remember changing those verses, lolTo me it's a simple matter. Why would the Bible mention the Holy Spirit if the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same?
Act 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured out this which you now see and hear.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
Luk 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?
By the way Nick, putting Trinity in those verses was a bit weak, as was your misuse of the simile of the board.
Hi Oxy,
You didn't change it correct, but the doctrine you espouse does.
If you teach that God is a Trinity or triune, then you should believe your own doctrine enough to see the word “God” in the bible as that Trinity you teach.As you see, you cannot do that without breaking scripture.
Therefore what is the point in promoting a doctrine that breaks or goes against scripture?
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 12 2006,10:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 12 2006,08:15) Hi Oxy,
Did you not know it was the Spirit of God in Jesus that did the work[Acts 10.38] and works through us[Phil 2.13]?
That's true, but it was the Word that created the Heavens and the Earth, and all things were created by Him.The Spirit of God in me will not witness to the lost unless I get off my butt to talk to them.
Hi Oxy,
And who is the God that you tell them about?
God is the God and Father of Jesus, not a trinity.You need to be sure of what you are preaching for your own sakes and that of your hearers, to know that you are not travelling over land and sea to make proselytes more fit for the fire than they are at present.
JN 8.54
“54Jesus answered, “(A)If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; (B)it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God'; “Jn 20.17
“17Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to (A)My brethren and say to them, 'I (B)ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'”True Nick.
God is one, not triune.
Scripture teaches that he is one. Men say that he is triune.
I choose to believe scripture rather than the crafty words of men.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
The son of a man is a man. Is it unreasonable to think of the Son of God as God along with His Father?
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 12 2006,23:34) Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God. The son of a man is a man. Is it unreasonable to think of the Son of God as God along with His Father?
Hi Oxy,
Would you agree with these murderous enemies of God that Jesus was making himself out to be equal with God?
And I thought you said he was that God you now say he is just equal to?To Oxy.
When you are equal to something, it is the same as saying that you are not that thing but like it.
e.g., 3+2=5
3 and 2 are not 5 in identity, but equal 5 in quality/quantity.
Or Chelsea is equal to Manchester United. Or the score was 1 – 1. They can be equal but in identity they are different.
Now regarding Jesus being equal to God, that statement in itself assumes that he is not God, but like him. However the reason the Jews said he was claimiing to be equal was because he was claiming that God was his Father.
So to argue that Jesus was claiming to be God is a misquote of that verse. Jesus' God is the Father. This is what we have been teaching all along. It is for this that we are opposed.
Now regarding equality, Jesus didn't say that yes I am equal, rather he gave them this answer:
19 … “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does…
So why do Trinitarians use this verse to say that Jesus was/is God when it is quite clear that you cannot derive that meaning from John 5:18 or the surrounding verses? Because anything that even remotely looks to back their doctrine up, they use. But as you can see in this case John 5:18 is neither teaching a Trinity nor that Jesus was God.
To say it was/is is to misquote scripture.
The Trinity doctrine can be seen as false when you search the scriptures. Most Trinitarians take quotes from here and there and put them in a different context.
Why can't we just let scripture teach us, instead of telling scripture what it is saying?
Oxy, if you humbled yourself like a child and read the scriptures in innocence, you would see the truth.
The Almighty God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the son of the Almighty God. For this is the truth that the Devil is trying to snatch away from people.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 13 2006,04:34) Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God. The son of a man is a man. Is it unreasonable to think of the Son of God as God along with His Father?
Hi Oxy,Glad you quoted John:
You could say that those Jews with murderous intentions against the Christ were exagerating their cause to make Jesus appear guilty, as they found to serve their purpose. Here are a few verses to illustrate it:
Here they exagerate to say Jesus claimed to be God when he hadn't. Jesus had to make an issue of it and reiterate that what he had been saying is that he is the Son of God, not that he is God. They later finally own up to this in John 19:7 and quote him correctly there:
Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
They staunchly would have nothing to do with Jesus being king of Israel, the Seed of David, and so here make it clear that it is Jesus that is making HIMSELF a king. They tried to get Pilate to reflect this in his inscription and you know the response he gave them.
Jhn 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.Jhn 19:21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that HE SAID, I am King of the Jews.
Nicodemus had asked the pharisees a question earlier at the beginning of these events as follows and notice the answer they gave him!
Jhn 7:50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,)
hn 7:51 Doth our law judge [any] man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
Jhn 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
Can we help it if people choose to misunderstand what we clearly tell them preferring to believe a lie so as to justify their wrongful conduct? According to Nicodemus, one is judged by the law based on what he says and/or does. And by the evidence, they could not have crucified Jesus for claiming to be God since he never did make such a claim. Why then would you be satisfied to think he said so when he clearly didn't?One verse you missed out.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one! If the Father is God, what does that make Jesus?Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 13 2006,04:41) One verse you missed out.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one! If the Father is God, what does that make Jesus?
Come on Oxy, One in Spirit.
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.In the New Kingdom God will be all in all does that make everyone the same God? You Know what it does we will all belong to the God Family but not the same personage.
How about this one? Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Or should we cross this Scripture out too?
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 13 2006,05:07) How about this one? Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Or should we cross this Scripture out too?
Look Oxy I just want the truth. That scripture seems to contradict 1 Cor. 15:28. That the Son when death is defeated He will be subject to the Father.Sorry for that remark Kenrch. It was uncalled for.
When He was on earth the Son only did what the Father showed Him. Because Jesus willingly gave up His life for His Father, His Father exalted Him above all. But the Father is always the Father, and Jesus will joyfully give all to His Father.
Remember the reason Jesus came was to reconcile us to the Father.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 13 2006,05:33) Sorry for that remark Kenrch. It was uncalled for. When He was on earth the Son only did what the Father showed Him. Because Jesus willingly gave up His life for His Father, His Father exalted Him above all. But the Father is always the Father, and Jesus will joyfully give all to His Father.
Remember the reason Jesus came was to reconcile us to the Father.
Oxy i don't know what all the fuss is about?The Father is greater than the Son. You agree?
The Son has all the fulness of the Father but subjects Himself to the Father. You agree?
The Holy Spirit is sent through the Son. You agree?
All three are of the God Family. You agree?
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 13 2006,04:41) One verse you missed out.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one! If the Father is God, what does that make Jesus?
Hi Oxy.,
Jesus called the Holy Spirit in him the “finger of God”[Lk11]
Scripture says God was inIN Him reconciling the world to Himself[2Cor 5]Now if God was IN him
was he also the God
that was IN him?If Jesus was God in perpetual unity with God as one being, then of what significance is the fact that they were one?
Agreed unity is of far more relevance that natural unity.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 13 2006,05:38) Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 13 2006,05:33) Sorry for that remark Kenrch. It was uncalled for. When He was on earth the Son only did what the Father showed Him. Because Jesus willingly gave up His life for His Father, His Father exalted Him above all. But the Father is always the Father, and Jesus will joyfully give all to His Father.
Remember the reason Jesus came was to reconcile us to the Father.
Oxy i don't know what all the fuss is about?The Father is greater than the Son. You agree?
The Son has all the fulness of the Father but subjects Himself to the Father. You agree?
The Holy Spirit is sent through the Son. You agree?
All three are of the God Family. You agree?
Yes Kenrich, I totally agree. Well done my learned friend!To Oxy.
For true believers there is one God the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ.
If God was your Father, you would believe that Jesus came from God.
The point is you just admitted (correctly) that God is the Father and Jesus is from or of that God.
The Trinity teaches that 3 persons are 1 being or substance.
Scripture teaches that God is one person/identity/the Father and that this one God has a son who is the prototype, and many other sons who are modelled after him.Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 13 2006,05:07) How about this one? Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Or should we cross this Scripture out too?
Hi Oxy,
Hebrews 1.8 quotes Ps 45
So let us look at the original context
Ps 45.6-7
“6(K)Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of (L)uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7You have (M)loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has (N)anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows.”So the God referred to here has a God.
God Himself has no God so it does not refer to God Himself.
Nor does it refer to a part of God Himself.
It refers to the divine Son of God.
Jesus is not God Himself
God is his Father and his God.
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