The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi Eli,
“We assert the actual evidence is clear: the word morphe refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way”.
“Like the rest of us, Christ was fully human and had the outward form (morphe), of a human. However, because he always did the Father’s will and demonstrated godly behavior and obedience, he therefore had the outward “appearance” (morphe) of God also.”

Jesus was the outward appearance of God??
Jesus represented His Father?

Are these scriptural?

No
God was in him.

We are neither trinitarian nor unitarian.
Both are nonsense

We are believers

[NickHassan]

Hi Eli,
The biblical unitarian site takes no cogniscence of the order which the Spirit has placed the events of Phil 2.5

” 5(A)Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in (B)Christ Jesus,
6who, although He ©existed in the (D)form of God, (E)did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but [a](F)emptied Himself, taking the form of a (G)bond-servant, and (H)being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, (I)He humbled Himself by becoming (J)obedient to the point of death, even (K)death on a cross.
9(L)For this reason also, God (M)highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him (N)the name which is above every name”

That order written in scripture does not allow the claimed
“outward appearance” aspect of
“representation” or “obedience” to God
as being godly likeness at the BEGINNING of the order of events.

If so it would be the RESULT of the “emptying” and not precede it.

Being found in the likeness of men again would PRECEDE any emptying and humbling and not follow in sequence.

THE ORDER HAS BEEN REVERSED.

God has laid out carefully His Word and does not want us tampering with it's beauty in any way with dire consequences warned about for those who do so.

[Elidad]

Hi Nick, You say:

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 02 2006,08:05)

Jesus was the outward appearance of God?? Jesus represented His Father? Are these scriptural? No God was in him. We are neither trinitarian nor unitarian. Both are nonsense We are believers

Let's take the first statement, “Jesus was the outward appearance of God?”. You say this is not Scriptural. If this is so, please explain to me the following Scriptures;

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

Genesis 1:26-27 says that God made man in His image. If we are the image of God, what does that mean?

If the above Scriptures say that Christ is the image of God what does that mean?

If I say that my son is the image of me, what does that mean?

Next statement, “Jesus represented God” which you also say is not Scriptual. If this be so, what does the following Scripture mean:

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Did Jesus 'come in' His Father's name or not?

If you were to come to me in the name of the organisation you work for (assuming you work), would you be representing that organisation, or yourself?

If Jesus Christ came in the name of His Father, why wasn't He representing Him?

As a counter remark to the above statements, taking it to be your affirmative, you say “God was in Him”. I agree 100%. Scriptural reference being:

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Is this any different than Christ being in us, in terms of the following Scripture?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

If so, how?

Please let me say Nick, you are not computing very well. My wife was a former Scientist; long retired, and even she can't figure out what you are driving at. Evidently you are too smart for us or we are just plain stupid.

Just one last point. If you do not believe in the unity of God then evidently you must reject Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29 as being nonsense statements. These two verses are as about as unitarian as you can get. If you don't believe them as spoken by the Holy Spirit, then how do you believe them?

Back to you for clarification.

May purity of thought and honesty of understanding prevail.

Elidad

[NickHassan]

Hi Eli,
Jesus was not just REpresenting his Father

He was PRESENTING his Father.
His Father LIVED in Him….as Spirit

The Father was in him and he was in the Father just as we can be in Him and He can be in us so that God is all in all.

And as God was In him as Spirit, so God, as Spirit, lives in us.[Eph 3.19]
Christ was a vessel as we too can be vessels for the treasure of the Spirit..

He was given the full authority to work in the name of the Father.
He allowed God to do His work through him.

Those who saw and heard him “saw” and heard God – in him.

His nature was the fruit of the Holy Spirit as shown in Gal 5.
His powers were the gifts of the Holy Spirit.as shown in 1Cor 12

Begotten of God as an image in the beginning he became a glorious vessel for God Himself to be revealed on earth among God's creation that had been made through him.

His outward appearance as a man was neither stately nor majeatic nor even attractive[Is 53].

We are mde in the image of God, and God is not made in our image. God is not of earth so outward appearances are not relevant. The similarity between us and God is from the breath of God which made dust/man a living being-soul and spirit.

Labels are of men and not of God.

Only men would need to be labelled by the obvious statement that God is one.

[Elidad]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 02 2006,11:52)

Hi Eli, Jesus was not just REpresenting his Father He was PRESENTING his Father. His Father LIVED in Him….as Spirit The Father was in him and he was in the Father just as we can be in Him and He can be in us so that God is all in all. And as God was In him as Spirit, so God, as Spirit, lives in us.[Eph 3.19] Christ was a vessel as we too can be vessels for the treasure of the Spirit.. He was given the full authority to work in the name of the Father. He allowed God to do His work through him. Those who saw and heard him “saw” and heard God – in him. His nature was the fruit of the Holy Spirit as shown in Gal 5. His powers were the gifts of the Holy Spirit.as shown in 1Cor 12 Begotten of God as an image in the beginning he became a glorious vessel for God Himself to be revealed on earth among God's creation that had been made through him. His outward appearance as a man was neither stately nor majeatic nor even attractive[Is 53]. We are mde in the image of God, and God is not made in our image. God is not of earth so outward appearances are not relevant. The similarity between us and God is from the breath of God which made dust/man a living being-soul and spirit. Labels are of men and not of God. Only men would need to be labelled by the obvious statement that God is one.

Hi Nick, Sorry, you have lost me. I wont bother responding anymore. This vessel is far too dumb for this sort of talk.

Cheers and peace to you.

Elidad

[Scott]

Come Eli dont give up that quickly!

Nick, I think you may have lost Elli because if the “firing statements” way that your last post is written. It is hard to respond to something that doesnt really have a question but has many statements.

[Scott]

I am certainly not a learned greek scholar. I was just looking at some of the posts using the greek language to underpin promotion of the trinity. I know that to know the greek context about things is important but why get into it at this stage? John says clearly that “o man has at any time seen God” I find this point alone fairly irefutable wether you know greek like the back of your hand or not.

Just a point for whatever it is worth.

[Jill]

Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 02 2006,03:27)

Jill, Welcome! Be forewarned, to hang around here you'll need to read your WHOLE Bible!  Very little gets by the folks here. If you are basing proof of Jesus' “diety” on his miracles, I'm afraid you are going to come up short. Semmy

Thanks Semmy. Now I have a question for you. What type of Forum is this? I just joined…but it seems to be filled with tension. I'm not here to prove anything. I know one thing…Jesus is my Savior and only through him I can be saved. Now all this other stuff…..does it concern our salvation? Do you have perfect knowledge? I sure don't. I can only rely on how I myself can interpet the Bible through study in prayer. If you interpet something different from me….does that make me wrong?

Jill

[seminarian]

Hi Elidad,

You wrote:

“Hi Semmy, I found your above post particularly good. It sits well with understandings that I have reached. However, it has left me puzzled a bit. In an earlier post (page 349) you raised negative comment about Anthony Buzzard, yet if I understand what I have have read of his writings correctly, he to would probably say AMEN to what you have said above.

Hence, would you please explain to me the difference in his views to those that you hold.

Cheers and peace to you.”

Elidid, Thanks for the note.  I can not speak to every belief Sir Anthony Buzzard holds.  I don't know that he would agree with me or not!  

That's unimportant because these are all human perspectives to scriptures and not to be taken as scripture itself.  I really could care less about what Buzzard believes so I'm not going to waste my time offering conjecture on the points we may or may not agree on.

I'm more interested in what Christ himself believed and taught.

Bless ya',

Semmy

[seminarian]

Hi Jill,

Actually, I told you what sort of Forum this was in the first line of my post.  These people
read their Bibles……throughly.  Many of us also are familiar with the original Hebrew, Aramaic
and Greek languages that the Bible was translated from.

So you will not be able to make scripturally unqualified statements such as, “Jesus is God
in human flesh” without being corrected by what the Bible itself says about who Jesus is.
I don't have all the answers either nor is my reasoning infallible.  However, that which I DO
know, I will share.  For Paul said to “expose those who contradict”, [Titus 1:9].

What you wrote contradicted what God's Holy Word said about His Son.  This was done out of love for God our Father, Christ and you!

Now that I've hopefully clarified that, would you like to actually respond to any of the
scriptures I provided in my post which define who our Lord Jesus is?  My experience is
when people can not discuss what was posted with scripture, they tend to want to
talk about everything else.

Bless you much!

Semmy

[WhatIsTrue]

Nick,

Let me remind you of how our current dialogue got started.  I was posting to someone else about matters that did not require a response from you.  Yet, you decided to correct my understanding because you perceived that you had greater knowledge on this subject matter than someone like me, whom you have described elsewhere as having a “two-dimensional” view.

Here are your words:

Quote

For those who only have human eyes there is the real human aspect of all these events. But there is also the view that goes deeper than the flesh that gives an insight into the spiritual aspects of all life that is unseen on earth but is more than equally true. To just see earthly things is to rob us of more relevant heavenly truths.

You profess to have insight, and now I am testing that insight by asking a few simple questions.  Surely it is not unreasonable to ask you to finish the “lesson” that you voluntarily decided to teach me.

In your last two posts to me, you wrote:

Quote

Hi WIT, It is not my view that our body is a tent but that is, as you will know, how Paul described it in 2 Cor 5.1-4. Do you agree with him? Was he not a vessel for the Spirit, that treasure? He said so in 2 Cor 4.7-10 and I believe he was, Christ was and we too can be unto eternity.

And:

Quote

Hi WIT, If you have doubts about me that is fine but perhaps you could address the scriptures in Rom 8 1-, 1Peter 1.11 and 1 Cor 10.4 I offered as we know and agree that is where truth is to be found

Here is my response:

I do not think that you can properly understand the scriptures that you have referenced until you can “rightly divide” the difference between “spirit” and “soul”.  So, I ask you for the third time:

Do you believe the “souls” of dead men are confined to “Hades”, or are their “spirits” confined there?

Personally, I don't think that you can answer the question because what you have been teaching over the last several days has been inconsistent and inherently confusing.

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
We are all hopefully attempting to walk together on the path of truth. All are welcome to put their opinions as to where the path goes on from here and to share their experiences as to how they got here.

But we all see through a glass darkly and none has the pure light alone. Anyone who posts in this public forum can expect all othere to offer other insights that may differ to ours and if we are humble enough we may all continue to learn.

Sometimes in difficult passages it is as if we are trying to cross a river and have to choose carefully the scriptural stones to put our feet on lest we fall. Sometimes we do fall and need the help of others to be restored to a safe position.

I am ignorant and welcome correction and so do most others on the path.

[Jill]

Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 02 2006,17:01)

Hi Jill, Actually, I told you what sort of Forum this was in the first line of my post.  These people read their Bibles……throughly.  Many of us also are familiar with the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages that the Bible was translated from. So you will not be able to make scripturally unqualified statements such as, “Jesus is God in human flesh” without being corrected by what the Bible itself says about who Jesus is. I don't have all the answers either nor is my reasoning infallible.  However, that which I DO know, I will share.  For Paul said to “expose those who contradict”, [Titus 1:9]. What you wrote contradicted what God's Holy Word said about His Son.  This was done out of love for God our Father, Christ and you! Now that I've hopefully clarified that, would you like to actually respond to any of the scriptures I provided in my post which define who our Lord Jesus is?  My experience is when people can not discuss what was posted with scripture, they tend to want to talk about everything else. Bless you much! Semmy

I'm glad you have absolute truth.

[camrezaie]

Hey this is my first post on this board, I have pretty much read just about all 3500 posts on this bored and done research on everything everyone has said. I'm only 18 years old right now and I went to the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses from ages 1 to 11. I never really cared until about 2 months ago and since then ive put over 350+ hours of research into the bible. First of all I'd like to start off by saying I do not believe in the trinity doctrine and I came to this conclusion only after i proved it to me self through and through. I want to ask everyone this question: what good has the trinity doctrine done for church? you know what it has done? it has ultimately caused divisions in the church and is the main difference between most churches, Romans 16:17 tells us to keep away from those who cause division and 1 Corinthians 1:10 also disapproves of division. looking at that alone, one can justify that the trinity doctrine is all together a false creed. Another interesting point i want to make about John 1:1 is that if you look at the greek scriptures and the greek wordage used for the theos explaining “the god” and the theos explaining “the word” you can see there is a difference here, and again if you look at John 20:28 and look at the theos there used to describe Jesus it is the same as the theos used to describe “the word” in John 1:1. Any time it refers to jesus or any one else like in these scriptures, Acts 28:5-6, 2 Corinthians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, John 10:34-35, the “theos” describing these who are not “the god” never uses the same wordage for theos as it does for when actually explaining the almighty god. but then some say oh look at the other verses talking about almighty god it uses the same wordage for “theos” as it does when talking about jesus or other gods… well this is LOGICAL, think about it, this basically proves that we can say god the father is divine and he is THE divine, but the greek wordage never says we can refer to jesus as THE divine but only divine or god-like or “a god”. the last issue i would like to address with this verse is that people claim the new world translation is incorrect for putting an “a” there… well if people werent so ignorant and looked at all of the greek grammar like in acts 28:5-6 and 12:22, there is an “a” there in the NIV version and in my version before the word god, well compare that with the wordage in John 1:1, there is no greek word there that is translated to “a”…

i have also addressed the other “proof texts” of the trinity:

Colossians 2:8-10: Romans 1:20, greek wording shows that Godship or Godhead means “divine nature.” 2 peter 1:4 says we can participate in divine nature, does this make us god almighty with eternal power and invisible qualities that is says in Romans 1:20?

1 John 5:20: Read it carefully, the verse in 19 says we are the children of God, in 20 it refers to him who is true which is talking about God, and we are in him who is true, so we are in God, and even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life, it only makes sense that its talking about God since in the previous sentences it uses him and his to refer to God himself, why would it suddenly switch to Jesus when the previous sentences are talking about knowing the true one, God. To further back up this point go to Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3 and John 8:42.

John 5:18-19: the jews accused jesus of making himself of equal status with god, jesus denied this in those verses and also in John 10:33-36, wouldn’t that mean the trinity is making the same mistake as the jews did?

Philippians 2:6: jesus says we should have this same attitude in the sense that we should not consider equality with god something to be grasped, this doesn’t mean that Jesus was equal to god but just because he was in human form he didn’t consider himself to be because Jesus said we should have the same attitude, okay so that would be like us saying that and meaning we really are equal to god but don’t consider ourselves to be just because we are in a human form, that’s nonsense. Jesus calls us brothers in Hebrews 2:11 but we know that jesus is greater than us so he is like our older brother because the bible says he was the first in all creation Colossians 1:15 and we know this makes us god’s offspring or children proved here Acts 17:29 jesus also claims hes not equal in these verses: Mark 10:18, John 5:19, John 6:38, John 7:16. was jesus lying to us?

Isaiah 45:23 and Philippians 2:10-11: so what? This does not prove the trinity, god exalted him to this position and made his name above everyone elses, of course knees will bow to jesus just as they will to God. Jesus was anointed to be in this position of lord the same way that Pharaoh, king of Egypt, put Joseph as lord of egypt in Genesis 41:41-43. but Pharaoh had the power to take that away from him because he was king, he gave him that position and he can take it away. Just as god has given jesus this power like it says in Acts 2:36.

Okay wow, all of these don't prove the trinity unless you twist them around, these are considered to be ambiguous verses by many that could go either way, OKAY THEN WHY NOT USE THIS LOGIC: there are MANY many MANY solid verses that are clear and contradict the trinity in a ton of ways (i have around 70-80 right now that i found my self and i will post them all in another post after this one), so why not believe those verses first and then formulate the meanings of the other verses so that they correlate with the solid ones, that is what any logical and rational person would do, instead people want to believe what the tradition of men says instead of what the bible says… make a list please of the verses that could support the trinity but could go either way and the ones that are SOLID proof against the trinity, i have about 10-15 which are ALL ambiguous against hundreds… i dont care who u are or how much or little you know about the bible, it is the most simple and clear thing that i have ever seen in my entire life…

[camrezaie]

Romans 8:29
29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Mark 1:24
saying: “What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz•a•rene´? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”

John 3:33-35
He that has accepted his witness has put his seal to it that God is true. 34 For the one whom God sent forth speaks the sayings of God, for he does not give the spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

Luke 22:42-44
42 saying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” 43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 But getting into an agony he continued praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.

Luke 2:52
And Jesus went on progressing in wisdom and in physical growth and in favor with God and men.

Luke 6:12
In the progress of these days he went out into the mountain to pray, and he continued the whole night in prayer to God.

Luke 18:19
19 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life giving spirit

John 20:17
Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.

Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz•a•rene´, a man publicly shown by God to YOU through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in YOUR midst, just as YOU yourselves know,

Acts 2:34-36
Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.”

Acts 3:13
13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom YOU, for YOUR part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate’s face, when he had decided to release him

Acts 7:55
55 But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand,

Acts 10:38
namely, Jesus who was from Naz´a•reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

2 Corinthians 11:31
31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, even the One who is to be praised forever, knows I am not lying.

Ephesians 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4 just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world,

Ephesians 1:17
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him;

1 Thessalonians 3:11
Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus direct our way prosperously to YOU

1 Timothy 2:5, 6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion,

1 John 5:1
1 Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one that caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one.

Jude 1:25
25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen.

Proverbs 8:22
“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.

2 Corinthians 4:4
among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

Malachi 2:10
10 “Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another, in profaning the covenant of our forefathers?

Mark 7:9
Further, he went on to say to them: “Adroitly YOU set aside the commandment of God in order to retain YOUR tradition.

Romans 3:4
Never may that happen! But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, even as it is written:

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the holy ones,

John 17:3
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: 2 “Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.”
3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

1 Corinthians 4:6
6 Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and A•pol´los for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” in order that YOU may not be puffed up indiv
idually in favor of the one against the other.

2 Peter 1:20, 21.
For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

Deuteronomy 6:4
4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

Galatians 3:20;
Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one.

Isaiah 42:8
8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

Exodus 20:2, 3
2 “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.

Isaiah 45:5
5 I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God. I shall closely gird you, although you have not known me,

Psalm 83:18
18 That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Colossians 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Revelation 3:14,
14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La•o•di•ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

Proverbs 18:22
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago

Colossians 1:16
because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

If jesus were god, the devil would not have been able to tempt jesus and it is proved here:
MATTHEW 4:1
1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.
Matthew 4:8, 9
8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”
James 1:13
13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.
Deuteronomy 32:4
The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he

Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service

If jesus were god, how could he have been made lower than angels?
Psalm 8:5, 6
5You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones,
And with glory and splendor you then crowned him.
6You make him dominate over the works of your hands;
Everything you have put under his feet

*Hebrews 2:5-9
but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].

James 2:19
You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

Mark 10:18
Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God

John 5:19
Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 6:38
because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me

John 7:16
Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.

Why would god have to approve himself?
Matthew 3:16, 17
After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

Luke 4:18
“Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release,

If he was god then wouldn’t he have said why have I forsaken myself?
Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice: “E´li, E´li, la´ma sa•bach•tha´ni?” which means, when translated: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

if he was god then wouldn’t he have said into his own hands he entrusts his spirit?
Luke 23:46
And Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” When he had said this, he expired.

After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. If jesus were god, then this verse would be false, but we know that every verse in the bible speaks truth.
Habakkuk 1:12
Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, for a judgment you have set it; and, O Rock, for a reproving you have founded it.

John 1:18
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

If jesus were god wouldn’t he know everything?
Mark 13:32
32 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.
Why would he need to LEARN obedience if he were god?
Hebrews 5:8
8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;

two separate individuals are witnessed here, no tri god head or anything or that sort.
Acts 7:55
But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand,

God’s active force not god himself, the ‘s signifies that god has possession of the force
Genesis 1:2
2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.

Why would it talk about god raising jesus up from the dead and giving him glory and then say that “so your faith and hope might be in god” if jesus was truly god?
2 Peter 1:20, 21
True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of YOU 21 who through him are believers in God, the one who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory; so that YOUR faith and hope might be in God.

Luke 5:17
In the course of one of the days he was teaching, and Pharisees and teachers of the law who had come out of every village of Gal´i•lee and Ju•de´a and Jerusalem were sitting there; and Jehovah’s power was there for him to do healing.

Isaiah 46:9
9 Remember the first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me

image of god, not god himself… just as god created man in his image
2 Corinthians 4:4
among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through

[epistemaniac]

hey there cam….

you said “Hey this is my first post on this board, I have pretty much read just about all 3500 posts on this bored…”

bored? I can relate 😉

I am glad you came to make your beliefs your own rather then simply swallowing the information coming from Bethel hook line and sinker based on the supposed authority of the organization alone…. unfortunately that alone does not guarantee freedom from error…

you said “I want to ask everyone this question: what good has the trinity doctrine done for church?”
really, this is sheer pragmatism… the question is not what has happened as a result of the belief, but rather, is it true or not. Once that is established the ramifications of the belief can be looked at. As it is, atheists could and in fact ask the same question in regard to the existence of God or religion in general.. they ask “what good has religion ever done for mankind? it has led to persecutions, wars, inquisitions? etc etc but just because they have a certain perspective on the utilitarian nature of religion, ie what the ramifications of the belief system might lead to for this or that person, rather, the question still remains, is it true or not? If it (the existence of God) is true then regardless of what some people have wrongly done with that belief, it is still true. The same thing goes for the doctrine of the Trinity. People have disagreed about all sorts of doctrines and they always will, but that alone is not enough to determine the verity or falsity of a given doctrine……

the fact is, I have witnessed to JW's many times, and visited the Kingdom Hall for services etc…. and if you look at the issue in terms of “confusion” or disagreement” I, as a Trinitarian, might well say that it is all the non or anti Trinitarians who have generated all the confusion and disagreement… what would you think of that line of reasoning in so far as disproving JW doctrine of any kind? I am betting you would not find it very convincing. And that is what I think when I look at this objection, it's not very convincing as a proof for or against the doctrine of the Trinity.

That will do for now…..

Blessings, Ken

[Jill]

Gosh…camrezaie has way more scriptures…So I guess he has the knowledge of absolute truth too.

[camrezaie]

lol epistemaniac, i dont understand a word your saying… i was laughing the entire time reading it… but the thing is were not talking about comparing what an atheist and a theist believes… the fact is that whether you believe in the trinity or not your a theist… which subjects you to following what the bible says.. not let me ask this question to theists, what good has the trinity done for any religion? is it going to save you from eternal destruction just because you believe in it? what has the trinity done for religion in general? it has DEFINITELY and UNDOUBTEDLY caused many conflicts and division among the church… im going to do what the scriptures say in romans and judge based on the “fruits” of the trinity and the people who created it, the fruits of the trinity are division, the bible is clearly against this… and that is absolutely why im not going to put my faith into some document that was influenced by imperfect men… end of story…

[NickHassan]

Hi and welcome cam,
I am convinced that only the Holy Spirit can loosen the grip on the religious of the fossilised false “foundation”of trinity theory.

It has been established as orthodoxy for 1700 years and to let go of it to be founded on the Rock of the Word of God is seemingly impossible for some.

[Jill]

Hey camrezaie ….don't even try. I think this is a closed forum. Anotherwords…if we say anything different…we will be banned. I think it is best for us to leave.

[Author]

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