The Trinity Doctrine

[Sultan]

Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 18 2006,21:18)

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 14 2006,12:18) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 13 2006,21:54) It was not christ that did the miracles, but the Father working through Him. You know that. You just want to argue, I'm disappointed. Joh 5:19 Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, “THE SON OF MAN CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF”, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise. So you are saying the scriptures are false? Address the scriptures and not me. I gave you two. Please address them are they fasle? Are you saying God was not in Christ as the scripture says? Are you saying power did not go out of Christ to heal the woman with the issue of blood? Sultan, Joh 5:19 Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, “THE SON OF MAN CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF”, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise. Does this scripture not say that the Father was in Christ and it was by the Father that Christ did the Father's work? That's what I'm saying! So now what?

I just needed clarification. Because of the Trinity teaching many are afraid to acknowledge that God was in Christ. I was just checking to make sure that you were not denying that God was in Christ doing the work.

Also sometimes I may challenge or ask questions just to help clarify for others who may be new to the info, it's not always a direct attack, but an opportuinity to help get the info out there. Be well my friend.

[david]

“JEHOVAH IS GOD.” (Ps 100:3)

Is Jesus God Almighty?
It's true that he is referred to as God or Mighty God. And everything about him matches up with what the word “God” means.
Other's were called gods–judges, angels, Satan–and the word god applies to all of them as they are all “mighty.”

But is Jesus God Almighty?
Jehovah is referred to as “Almighty” 43 times.
This is because there is nothing that he cannot do.

Jesus, is mighty, and can be called a God, but how often does the Bible describe him as Almighty?

If Jesus and Jehovah are equal and both truly God, why is Jesus only called God a few times? Why does the Bible speak of as Jesus having a God, but not of Jehovah having a God?

And here's some fun math. We know Jesus is clearly referred to with the word “God” (Mighty one) a few times, and there are a few more times that people try to apply to him. Even if all these references were to Jesus being called God, they would amount to about nine times, as far as I can tell. 9 times.

HOW DOES THAT COMPARE WITH HOW MANY TIMES JEHOVAH IS CALLED GOD?
If they are equal and both truly God, would the numbers not be somewhat equal?

Expressions we find in the Bible:

Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 time

LITERALLY A THOUSAND TIMES WE ARE CLEARLY TOLD THAT JEHOVAH IS GOD–these are texts that are not confusing and can't be disputed.
Literally, 2 or 3 times, the word God is used with reference to Jesus.

How is that equal?

[truebelief4u]

While I do not agree with all of the JW's research, neither do I dismiss it out of hand.  SOME of their research is very, very good…and the “trinity” happens to be an area where they are right on the money.

The error most people make is in trying to defend the trinity in retrospect because it is such an entrenched doctrine.  However, the fact is, the concept itself did not exist in Christianity until the late 3rd/early 4th century, and is purely a product of the Roman Church. [This is admitted by the Roman Church, which SHOULD be sufficient unto itself as showing it is a purely manufactured doctrine.]

The PROPER thing for the “church” to do would be to simply admit is was in error adopting the doctrine….however, I seriously doubt any modern day mainstream “church” is going to do this.  To do so would be to lead Christians to begin asking some embarrassing questions about other “errors,” and the mainstream churches are simply not going to open that can of worms. [They have enough trouble keeping members as it is!   ]

At some point, one must simply ask oneself, am I to follow one of the man-made institutions calling itself a “church,” or am I going to research Scripture and the history of the text so I can get as close to the original as possible and then FOLLOW THE BIBLE?  God/Christ told us to examine all things so that we may ascertain that which is true, and we are also warned about the man-made false doctrines, etc….this is why God told us to STUDY….unfortunately very few actually “study,” rather they simply follow whatever their particular church tells them is “correct.”

The “trinity doctrine” BEGAN as an argument between Athanasius and Arius in the late 3rd century, and even the Roman Church had such a problem with it that it was not formally made a doctrine/dogma of the Roman Church until the Council of Trent in the 16th century [and some elements of the Roman Church are still arguing about it even today]. Prior to the invention of this “trinity doctrine” by the Roman Church, early Christianity did not believe in any “trinity,” and understood that the proper “order” of authority (and certainly not co-equal in nature was God, Christ, and both God's/Christ's use of the “holy spirit.”  The Hebrews for thousands of years had understood that there is only ONE “God (Yahweh),” and He acts through the “holy spirit.” The Hebrews well understood the “spirit” was not a person, but was the active force of Yahweh, which He used to get things done.  What TODAY'S so-called “churches” teach, and what the Bible actually said are two very different things.

[david]

Quote

Expressions we find in the Bible: Jehovah God–50 times the [true] God Jehovah–4 times Jehovah their God–39 times Jehovah the [true] God–8 times. Jehovah is in truth God–1 time Jehovah is God–1 time Jehovah is my God–1 time Jehovah is our God–1 time Jehovah your God–455 times Jehovah our God–105 times Jehovah my God–40 times Jehovah his God–29 times Jehovah is a God–7 times Jehovah the God of–204 times Jehovah a God–1 time

How many times is the holy spirit referred to as: “God”?

I haven't actually checked yet. Does anyone know? It took quite a while for me to search through the entire Bible and find the 1000 TIMES or so where Jehovah is called God. So if there's someone who has already checked and could save me the time, that would be great.

How many times is the holy spirit referred to as God?

Anyone?

David.

[Woutlaw]

Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 20 2006,17:52)

While I do not agree with all of the JW's research, neither do I dismiss it out of hand.  SOME of their research is very, very good…and the “trinity” happens to be an area where they are right on the money. The error most people make is in trying to defend the trinity in retrospect because it is such an entrenched doctrine.  However, the fact is, the concept itself did not exist in Christianity until the late 3rd/early 4th century, and is purely a product of the Roman Church. [This is admitted by the Roman Church, which SHOULD be sufficient unto itself as showing it is a purely manufactured doctrine.] The PROPER thing for the “church” to do would be to simply admit is was in error adopting the doctrine….however, I seriously doubt any modern day mainstream “church” is going to do this.  To do so would be to lead Christians to begin asking some embarrassing questions about other “errors,” and the mainstream churches are simply not going to open that can of worms. [They have enough trouble keeping members as it is!   ] At some point, one must simply ask oneself, am I to follow one of the man-made institutions calling itself a “church,” or am I going to research Scripture and the history of the text so I can get as close to the original as possible and then FOLLOW THE BIBLE?  God/Christ told us to examine all things so that we may ascertain that which is true, and we are also warned about the man-made false doctrines, etc….this is why God told us to STUDY….unfortunately very few actually “study,” rather they simply follow whatever their particular church tells them is “correct.” The “trinity doctrine” BEGAN as an argument between Athanasius and Arius in the late 3rd century, and even the Roman Church had such a problem with it that it was not formally made a doctrine/dogma of the Roman Church until the Council of Trent in the 16th century [and some elements of the Roman Church are still arguing about it even today]. Prior to the invention of this “trinity doctrine” by the Roman Church, early Christianity did not believe in any “trinity,” and understood that the proper “order” of authority (and certainly not co-equal in nature was God, Christ, and both God's/Christ's use of the “holy spirit.”  The Hebrews for thousands of years had understood that there is only ONE “God (Yahweh),” and He acts through the “holy spirit.” The Hebrews well understood the “spirit” was not a person, but was the active force of Yahweh, which He used to get things done.  What TODAY'S so-called “churches” teach, and what the Bible actually said are two very different things.

Amen brother

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Mar. 24 2006,06:27)

Quote Expressions we find in the Bible: Jehovah God–50 times the [true] God Jehovah–4 times Jehovah their God–39 times Jehovah the [true] God–8 times. Jehovah is in truth God–1 time Jehovah is God–1 time Jehovah is my God–1 time Jehovah is our God–1 time Jehovah your God–455 times Jehovah our God–105 times Jehovah my God–40 times Jehovah his God–29 times Jehovah is a God–7 times Jehovah the God of–204 times Jehovah a God–1 time How many times is the holy spirit referred to as: “God”? I haven't actually checked yet.  Does anyone know?  It took quite a while for me to search through the entire Bible and find the 1000 TIMES or so where Jehovah is called God.  So if there's someone who has already checked and could save me the time, that would be great. How many times is the holy spirit referred to as God? Anyone? David.

Once that I know:

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not LIED NOT UNTO MEN, BUT TO GOD.

Is this right?

[Is 1:18]

Quote

MARK 12:29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD [kurios] OUR GOD IS ONE LORD [kurios]; Who is the “Lord” in this passage?

I didn't get an answer to my question.

[Is 1:18]

Quote

LORD (YHWH) is not the same word as lord in the New Testament.

Isn't it interesting that when Mark quoted the most sacred and venerated of all OT scriptures (to the Jews), the shema (Deut 6:4), the word YHWH has been translated as kurios in the NT? If there is one God (theos) and one Lord (kurios), why then is “kurios” used in the shema? Also consider this passage:

LUKE 2:21-40
21And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

22And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord [kurios]

23as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “EVERY firstborn MALE THAT OPENS THE WOMB SHALL BE CALLED HOLY TO THE LORD[[kurios]“),

24and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord [kurios], “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS.”

25And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

26And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's [kurios] Christ.

27And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law,

28then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God [theos], and said,

29″Now Lord [kurios], You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word;

30For my eyes have seen Your salvation, 31Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,

32A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Your people Israel.”

33And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him.

34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed–

35and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

36And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher She was advanced in years and had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,

37and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers.

38At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God [theos], and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

39When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord [kurios], they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

40The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God [theos] was upon Him.

Looks like “kurios” and “theos” are used interchangably by Luke. Perhaps, gramatically speaking, the title “Lord” may not denote something that is 'less than deity' after all?!

Quote

Did you know that YHWH (LORD) has a son?

Yes, but the pivotal question is “when did He become a Son?” Here is Gabriel the angel's answer:

LUKE 1:35
The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Quote

You must be confused if Jesus is the only Lord (i.e., one Lord Jesus Christ as Paul taught).

All i'm trying to point out is if you use passages like 1 Cor 8:6 to prove that the Father is exclusively God (theos) and Jesus is exclusively Lord (kurios) then you have many contradictory scriptures to deal with.

 

[truebelief4u]

I think what is happening here is that posters are not considering the changes made in the Biblical text over the centuries….what the “modern” texts say is not necessarily what the original (or oldest) texts say. I think perhaps a number of people here need to do some serious “textual research,” and learn the facts of life regarding the changes made to the text over the centuries…..if anyone thinks they can just pull a Bible “off the shelf” today and be reading an accurate text, they are sadly mistaken. I'll just give a couple examples, and y'all can take it from there….
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm
http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/doug/1john5_7.html

ACCURATE Bible Study requires that you are using an ACCURATE TEXT……You may be surprised at what you learn if you angage in some in-depth textual research.

[Cubes]

Hi Is,

I agree that God and Lord appear to be used interchangeably and I don't see how it's different from the OT.

Acts 26:1Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You are permitted to speak for yourself.”
So Paul stretched out his hand and answered for himself: 2 “I think myself happy, King Agrippa, because today I shall answer for myself before you concerning all the things of which I am accused by the Jews, 3 especially because you are expert in all customs and questions which have to do with the Jews. Therefore I beg you to hear me patiently.

[Cubes]

Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,16:20)

I think what is happening here is that posters are not considering the changes made in the Biblical text over the centuries….what the “modern” texts say is not necessarily what the original (or oldest) texts say.  I think perhaps a number of people here need to do some serious “textual research,” and learn the facts of life regarding the changes made to the text over the centuries…..if anyone thinks they can just pull a Bible “off the shelf” today and be reading an accurate text, they are sadly mistaken.  I'll just give a couple examples, and y'all can take it from there…. http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/doug/1john5_7.html ACCURATE Bible Study requires that you are using an ACCURATE TEXT……You may be surprised at what you learn if you angage in some in-depth textual research.

I appreciate the info. This would be entirely new for me and I don't mind confessing my skeptism here. I hope to be proven wrong.

[Sultan]

Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,11:20)

I think what is happening here is that posters are not considering the changes made in the Biblical text over the centuries….what the “modern” texts say is not necessarily what the original (or oldest) texts say. I think perhaps a number of people here need to do some serious “textual research,” and learn the facts of life regarding the changes made to the text over the centuries…..if anyone thinks they can just pull a Bible “off the shelf” today and be reading an accurate text, they are sadly mistaken. I'll just give a couple examples, and y'all can take it from there…. http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/doug/1john5_7.html ACCURATE Bible Study requires that you are using an ACCURATE TEXT……You may be surprised at what you learn if you angage in some in-depth textual research.

The link on 1 John is great. Good stuff.

[emma123]

If Jesus is not God then we have creature worship.From the Old Testament and the New we see God's decree concerning worship.We are told in Ex:14:34 that “you shall worship no other gods.” In Ex 20:1-6 we are told ” You shall have no other gods before me”,and “you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” Very clear here. Worship God alone. Jesus tells us the same thing in Mt.4:9-10. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if He would worship him. Jesus 'response echoed Exodus. He stated ,”You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only you shall serve.” So if Jesus accepted worship He would be in violation of God's decree. Did He accept worship? Jesus received worship from a leper Mt.8:2 , from a blind man Jn.9:35 ,from his disciples Mt.14:33. This was not just a middle eastern custom of bowing to someone. When Jesus was worshipped by His disciples in Mt.28:9 they held His feet and worshipped Him. Now the question must be asked why didn't He rebuke them as the angel rebuked John in Rev. 22:8-9 when John tried to worship him. Also when Cornelius tried to worship Peter he was rebuked by Peter. Jesus never once rebuked anyone for worshipping Him. Why? We must also look at Heb.1:6. It states when He( the father God) again brings his firstborn into the world He says,” let all the angels of God worship Him. Would the same God who decreed man to worship Him alone break that decree and have His angels worship Jesus?God declared in Is.42:8 He would not share His glory with another yet Jesus says in Jn.17:5 “And now O Father glorify me together ,with Yourself,with the glory which I had with you before the world was.God said in Is.45:23,”To Me every knee shall bow.”(worship) . Paul declares the same of Jesus when he said in Phil.2:10 at the name of Jesus every knee will bow(worship). You must honor the Son as you honor the Father.Worship can only be given to God and if Jesus received it and God decreed it then Jesus must be God

[truebelief4u]

QUOTE: “Worship can only be given to God and if Jesus received it and God decreed it then Jesus must be God.” END QUOTE.

Aren't you forgetting that God gave all power to Christ to act as His emmissary on earth, and it is only through Christ that we can get to God? If Christ WAS God, we'd already “be there” simply by accepting Christ….the point is you have to GO THROUGH Christ to GET TO God….and this certainly does not imply “equality of nature” between God/Christ….in fact, it points directly to Christ being subservient to God! [Which is another argument against the “trinity.”]

[Is 1:18]

Quote (emma123 @ Mar. 25 2006,20:28)

If Jesus is not God then we have creature worship.From the Old Testament and the New we see God's decree concerning worship.We are told in Ex:14:34 that “you shall worship no other gods.” In Ex 20:1-6 we are told ” You shall have no other gods before me”,and “you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” Very clear here. Worship God alone. Jesus tells us the same thing in Mt.4:9-10. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if He would worship him. Jesus 'response echoed Exodus. He stated ,”You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only you shall serve.” So if Jesus accepted worship He would be in violation of God's decree. Did He accept worship? Jesus received worship from  a leper Mt.8:2 , from a blind man Jn.9:35 ,from his disciples Mt.14:33. This was not just a middle eastern custom of bowing to someone. When Jesus was worshipped by His disciples in Mt.28:9 they held His feet and worshipped Him. Now the question must be asked why didn't He rebuke them as the angel rebuked John in Rev. 22:8-9 when John tried to worship him. Also when Cornelius tried to worship Peter he was rebuked by Peter. Jesus never once rebuked anyone for worshipping Him. Why? We must also look at Heb.1:6. It states when He( the father God)  again brings his firstborn into the world He says,” let all the angels of God worship Him. Would the same God who decreed man to worship Him alone break that decree and have His angels worship Jesus?God declared in Is.42:8 He would not share His glory with another yet Jesus says  in Jn.17:5 “And now O Father glorify me together ,with Yourself,with the glory which I had with you before the world was.God said in Is.45:23,”To Me every knee shall bow.”(worship) . Paul declares the same of Jesus when he said in Phil.2:10 at the name of Jesus every knee will bow(worship). You must honor the Son as you honor the Father.Worship can only be given to God and if Jesus received it and God decreed it then Jesus must be God

Nice post emma123,
I was going to find a post I wrote a while back for David but you have covered most of what I said. I think the bolded part of your post is a key point. I believe in every instance in the NT where “worship” was given inappropriately (and promptly rebuked by the recipient) the worshipper fell down. This obviously is a pointer to the fact that the act goes well beyond polite deference.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,20:51)

Aren't you forgetting that God gave all power to Christ to act as His emmissary on earth, and it is only through Christ that we can get to God?   If Christ WAS God, we'd already “be there” simply by accepting Christ….the point is you have to GO THROUGH Christ to GET TO God….and this certainly does not imply “equality of nature” between God/Christ….in fact, it points directly to Christ being subservient to God! [Which is another argument against the “trinity.”]

This in untrue.

Subservience by no means invalidates the trinity. The pre-incarnate Word took on flesh and became a man. He was born under the Law (Gal 4:4) and therefore had His Father not become His God (and all that that connotes) then He would have been a transgressor of the law, and could not have been our perfect sacrifice! Functional/relational subordination by Christ to His Father does not equate to ontological inequality (which is necessary to disprove trinitarianism).

Here is a case in point:
If you propose that relational sunordination DOES disprove the trinity then, using the same logic, you must also accept that 1 Corinthians 11:3 disproves a woman’s humanity:

1 CORINTHIANS 11:3,4
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

The head of a woman is man. This is solely a matter of authority – NOT ontology. The woman is still 100% human, she is not any LESS human than man. This is very simple to understand Truebelief4u, I hope you can grasp it.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 25 2006,17:15)

As for the “when” question… I am sure that you've posted it at various times before, but may I ask you kindly to present us with Christ BEFORE he was begotten.  We can try looking at it from your perspective and examine things through that avenue. All my best.

Hey Cubes,
I think i've probably written a few thousand words to you in an attempt to convey my understanding of this. I really don't know how much clearer I can be. Do you want me to to simply post all my previously written material?

[Woutlaw]

Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,20:51)

QUOTE:  “Worship can only be given to God and if Jesus received it and God decreed it then Jesus must be God.” END QUOTE. Aren't you forgetting that God gave all power to Christ to act as His emmissary on earth, and it is only through Christ that we can get to God?   If Christ WAS God, we'd already “be there” simply by accepting Christ….the point is you have to GO THROUGH Christ to GET TO God….and this certainly does not imply “equality of nature” between God/Christ….in fact, it points directly to Christ being subservient to God! [Which is another argument against the “trinity.”]

truebelief,

Man you are out of sight. I never looked at it that way. Wow.

[emma123]

I would like to challenge the above statement that God the father is the almighty God and Jesus is the mighty God. To be sure Jesus is called ” Mighty God “in Is.9:6. However the Father is called ” the Mighty God in Is.10:21.This is definitely the Father as it states the remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. God is referred to as the God of Jacob in Ex.3:6 . Thus the question:Do we have two Mighty Gods?. Seems improbable if there is only one God. If Jesus is God the problem no longer exists;Which He is and therefore it doesn't.

[seekingtruth]

Quote (Woutlaw @ Mar. 26 2006,03:11)

Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,20:51) QUOTE:  “Worship can only be given to God and if Jesus received it and God decreed it then Jesus must be God.” END QUOTE. Aren't you forgetting that God gave all power to Christ to act as His emmissary on earth, and it is only through Christ that we can get to God?   If Christ WAS God, we'd already “be there” simply by accepting Christ….the point is you have to GO THROUGH Christ to GET TO God….and this certainly does not imply “equality of nature” between God/Christ….in fact, it points directly to Christ being subservient to God! [Which is another argument against the “trinity.”] truebelief, Man you are out of sight. I never looked at it that way. Wow.

I've got to agree that is a very good point.

[Author]

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