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Oneofthelordsgenerals,
Here is another. Do you agree or disagree and why?
Quote Placing Jesus' name in John 1 is inappropriate and out of context. In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth through His spoken Word and not through His begotten Son. It was through the Son that God reconciled the us to Him, but it was through His Word that He created the Heavens and the Earth. Herein lies another error of the teaching of the Trinity. When all are co-equal then there is no real authority,and understanding of roles and position get's confused, but according to scripture the God the Father created all thing alone and by Himself.
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:“ I am the LORD, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
Who frustrates the signs of the babblers,
And drives diviners mad;
Who turns wise men backward,
And makes their knowledge foolishness (Isa. 44:24-25)Now if the Trinity is true then this scripture would contradict Genesis 1:26 where the scriptures speaks of Us creating, but if we understand the Bible according to what it says, God the Father spoke, the Word created through the Spirit (power of God) then you could say Us (Father, His Word, and Spirit), Or God could say He did it alone. Because there is only one Creator. Yahweh. The Word was Yahwehs avenue to create, but He who commands the Word is greater than the Word. The Word was subject to Yahweh.
Just a side note:
The Word became flesh (John. 1:14)
Yahweh Highly exalted Jesus (Phil. 2:9)
When the end comes the Son will then again be subject to Yahweh and not co-equal.(1 Cor. 15:20-28)Yahweh gave Jesus the right to be on His right hand, and all power in heaven and Earth, and when redemption is complete (us, the earth,etc.) then the Son will be subject to Yahweh that Yahweh will be all in all. Of course the Trinitarians never believe that the Son is subject to the Father because according to them He is Co- Equal, but once again the Bible disagrees with their erroneous claims.
Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 01 2006,21:21) Oneofthelordsgenerals, Here is another. Do you agree or disagree and why?
Quote Placing Jesus' name in John 1 is inappropriate and out of context. In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth through His spoken Word and not through His begotten Son. It was through the Son that God reconciled the us to Him, but it was through His Word that He created the Heavens and the Earth. Herein lies another error of the teaching of the Trinity. When all are co-equal then there is no real authority,and understanding of roles and position get's confused, but according to scripture the God the Father created all thing alone and by Himself.
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:“ I am the LORD, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
Who frustrates the signs of the babblers,
And drives diviners mad;
Who turns wise men backward,
And makes their knowledge foolishness (Isa. 44:24-25)Now if the Trinity is true then this scripture would contradict Genesis 1:26 where the scriptures speaks of Us creating, but if we understand the Bible according to what it says, God the Father spoke, the Word created through the Spirit (power of God) then you could say Us (Father, His Word, and Spirit), Or God could say He did it alone. Because there is only one Creator. Yahweh. The Word was Yahwehs avenue to create, but He who commands the Word is greater than the Word. The Word was subject to Yahweh.
Just a side note:
The Word became flesh (John. 1:14)
Yahweh Highly exalted Jesus (Phil. 2:9)
When the end comes the Son will then again be subject to Yahweh and not co-equal.(1 Cor. 15:20-28)Yahweh gave Jesus the right to be on His right hand, and all power in heaven and Earth, and when redemption is complete (us, the earth,etc.) then the Son will be subject to Yahweh that Yahweh will be all in all. Of course the Trinitarians never believe that the Son is subject to the Father because according to them He is Co- Equal, but once again the Bible disagrees with their erroneous claims.
True that, Sultan.I am still trying to understand how the Hebrew ended up w/ US in the first genesis mention of it since the original language doesn't seem to readily shed light on this. Any scriptural insights from you or anyone would be greatly appreciated.
More than likely that the “us” in Gen 1:26 is talking about angels.
(Forgive me for linking to other articles all the time, but there's no use in me reinventing the wheel!)
There's an article on this here
Quote The Trinity has been preached in scripture. The Church has been preaching the doctrineof the Trinity for thousands of years. The Jehovahs Witness belief is a lot less old. One of the lord's generals,
It took a few hundred years to decipher and define the trinity doctrine. I believe what the earlier Christians believed before the trinity doctrine was formalized in the 3d or 4th century. My belief preceeds the apostasy that was fortold and isn't strikingly comparable to the pagan beliefs of ancient cultures all over the world.I know you can quickly put down, ok, not 5 or 6, more like 15 or so scriptures that are fuzzy or can be taken more than one way and can be taken to imply a trinity if given enough work, but I find literally thousands of scriptures that say that Jehovah is God, and that do not teach the trinity.
If we could go through your scriptures one by one, instead of putting them all down in one shot, and saying, “see, this prooves it,” it would be easier for me to go through everything you say and not only pick the weak points, as you claim I am.david.
Hi OOTLG (One of the Lord's Generals):
Rebuttals for your position:
Quote Ok let's use The New World translation for your sake; 1 Timothy 3:14 I am writing you these things, though I am hoping to come to you shortly, 15 but in case I am delayed, that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household, which is the congregation of [the] living God, a pillar and support of the truth. 16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’
Jesus said that no one has seen God (The Father). And no one justifies God or declares him righteous. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. Christ is the express image of someone, not that one himself or there would be no need to say that he is the image of himself. You would not be the image of yourself. You are simply you however your kid could be said to be the express image of you in mannerisms, resemblance and attitude.
Concerning Is 9:6 (KJV)
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
1. Christ is given by someone. Unto us a son is given.
a. Giver gives gift/present to someone(s) (John 3:16)
b Recipient receives the gift that is being given. (Is 9:6)
In between the giver and the recipient is the gift that is being transferred: [/I]there is one God and one mediator between God and men who is the man Jesus Christ. 1 Ti 2:52. He is the mighty God and the Prince of Peace.
We also know that Jesus has said of himself on at least one occasion that he has a God but we've never heard the Father make such a statement. Both statements therefore are true: Jesus is the Mighty God but Jesus also has a God.
He is highly exalted for he is high, but he sits at the right hand of the Highest/Power and his mom conceived him by the overshadowing power of the Highest.The Father has not declared himself to be a Prince, nor has any of the prophets or apostles. If he did, it would mean that he was sired by a king… which happens to be true in Jesus' case but not of the Father's.
3. Eternal/everlasting father. Well then, Jesus the eternal and everlasting father has repeatedly declared himself to have a Father, whereas the Father of Jesus has never made such a declaration. What now? There is a readily logical explanation given throughout scripture so that we don't need to jump and fall into a web of confusion making a triune being of the son whom the Father gave, through whom many are brought back to the Father of all.
Quote (Sammo @ Mar. 01 2006,22:12) More than likely that the “us” in Gen 1:26 is talking about angels. (Forgive me for linking to other articles all the time, but there's no use in me reinventing the wheel!)
There's an article on this here
Thank you, Sammo. I'll check it out. I agree you needn't reinvent the wheel.Before I go on though, my question is not so much who the “US” are, but rather how it was decided that:
`asah [06213] = means “let us make”
and
tselem [06754] = means “in our image”
The outline of biblical usage in strong's lexicon doesn't include pronouns. So how was it determined to put the pronouns in… ? Do you see what I mean?
Tselem simply means image(s), likeness, resemblence.
And `asah is a verb, to do, accomplish, fashion etc.
Since the translators had not had prior instances of the word being used in such fashion as they translated it, how could they have made their conclusions unless those words were commonly understood in the Hebrew to imply such plural pronouns?In any case, I shall take a look at your reference…it may touch on it.
Thanks again.I don't know much about languages, but words generally come in different forms depending on their case, and whether or not they're singular or plural. And this is confusing for English speakers, because this doesn't really seem to happen in English very much!
So even verbs can have different endings, depending on whether or not they're singular or plural.
In Gen 1:26, I assume that 'asah' and 'tselem' both have plural verb-endings. Spend 15 minutes with a Hebrew grammar book to find out what these would be, and 5 minutes with an Interlinear version of Gen 1:26, and there's your answer
OOTLG
Quote JOHN 20:27 Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.” (Here Jesus is still called God by Thomas, God not god. And he doesn't rebuke it)
The bible does call Jesus mighty God/god so Thomas was right.
The angels of God are called God/god in Psalm 8 when it says that Christ was created a little lower than the angels or elohiym. So by that we could technically call the angels God/god. Fact is that it is true that there are many Gods/gods as has often been scripturally cited here and these are appointed by YHWH himself, but he is distinguished from them all because he is the Most High God from whom they all came forth or were created. I acknowledge that Christ as the Son, is exalted by the God most high to be worshipped by all others in heaven and on earth. It is a matter of ORDER, therefore.Besides that, it pays to read the surrounding accounts throughout the gospels about our Lord's death and resurrection… whom he saw, what he said, what was said to him, how he was received, etc. When Thomas made that declaration, no one else was acting as though the Father had showed up. Everyone was cool and chilling. Two disciples had earlier dined w/ him on the road to Emmaus and am sure were now present when Thomas made his declaration.
It does not make Thomas' statement untrue but it does also show that the majority of the disciples were not understanding something new of Jesus… this was still Jesus, the son of the living God…. the mighty God of Isaiah, in fact, who he claimed to be all along. Not the Most High God.
Also Jesus had said to Mary Magdalene some days or weeks earlier soon after the resurrection, “go and tell my brothers…”
The Father has no brothers as far as we know.
Mary Magdalene who was very close to Jesus called him, “Rabboni” at her first sight of him following the resurrection. She ought to have known if Jesus was YHWH, don't you think? I mean they were tight. She wouldn't call YHWH rabboni, would she?
Also Jesus did say at the time to Mary that he was going to his Father and hers, to his God and her God. What should we conclude from these things?Right up till he was taken up into glory, he acknowledged the Father to be greater and certainly a separate individual.
Why haven't you done the same?Acts 1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be *witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 01 2006,19:27) 2 CORINTHIANS 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
We hold that Christ is the only begotten son and image of the Most High God, not the person of God Most High himself.
On the other hand, Trinity doctrine makes him out to be: a triune being who is at the same time his own Father and son. That is what is erroneous and false.We do not find the gospel veiled. The trinity is another story!
Quote PHILLIPIANS 2:5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (God the Father, never says Jehovah God, But the first part of the trinity)
Not sure of your point here. Where does the Trinity come in again? YHWH is the Father. It is he who exalts his son, Yeshua.
Quote 1 TIMOTHY 6:13 In the sight of God, who preserves all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen. (You say Jesus is the only one to have immortality, and only Potentate{only ruler to be bound by no law])
1 Tim 6:15-16 refers to the Father.
(Titus 2:11-13) I know from Paul's other teachings that he does not consider Jesus to be the Father nor does he equate the two. When comparative scripture(s) equates the two and gives them equal ranking, then we can perhaps begin to talk. There are no such scriptures to my knowledge. Thus Jesus rules over all except over the Father. The Father rules over all including over Christ for he is his God.
Quote 2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ: (So do they share the same righteousness or is this talking about one person.)
I know from Peter's writings in general that he considers Christ to be the Son of God, not as God Almighty himself. So There are two persons being spoken of. Scripture also teaches us that the Father is the giver of all good gifts and the source of everything. Was it not by his Spirit that his only begotten son was conceived? Is he not the one whom Christ bears the image of? The righteousness therefore is his to begin with and to impart, as the life and light which is in Christ.
Quote JEREMIAH 23:5 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will certainly reign and act with discretion and execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel itself will reside in security. And this is his name with which he will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.” (Jesus is this sprout whom is called, by NW Jehovah Is Our Righteosness. So whos righteoesness is it)
YHWH shall raise unto David a righteous Branch.
The name of the Branch shall be called YHWH Our Righteousness. YHWH is our righteousness.
Jesus himself said of YHWH that only he is good. Does Jesus lie? Also please consider the song of Moses and of the Lamb in Rev 15:3f which is their witness of the Father:Rev 15:3 And they were singing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb:
“Great and marvelous are your actions,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations.*
4
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come and worship before you,
for your righteous deeds have been revealed.”All good originate from the Father through Christ to us because he (Christ) purchased our pardon w/ his own shed blood.
OOTLG, I've got to go now but hope to return in a few days to finish. Thx.
Actually, I thought to finish tonight.
John 17:9: Regarding Jesus' glory. Jesus was and is glorified by the Father. He highly exalted him and told him to sit at his right hand, calling him his own son which according to Hebrews is an honor he did not bestow on anyone else. Jesus could truthfully and in that authority command and accept glory.
If Lord always meant YHWH, then Abraham could also be considered so and a whole bunch of other people that were not so savory in the OT. I think you mean LORD. As far as I know, Jesus does not refer to himself as LORD/YHWH. It would have been easy enough for him to simply say: I AM The Father. But what he said is, I and the Father are one.
He even added that the Father is greater than he and than all.The opening verse of Revelation states that it was God who gave the revelation to Jesus who through an angel gave it to John. (KJV).
Revelation 1:4 explains 1:8. This speaks of the Father.
Rev 22:12 (Alpha & Omega): All I can say is that everything has its order as Paul writes:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
There are various beginnings and endings, firsts and lasts. Christ has his order which is above that of all creation. Above his order is that of the Father.
Nebuchadnezzar is also referred to as the king of kings. And he was, as was Napoleon for that is what emperors are but they belong to a different order.
The Father in fact has no beginning as he is the one who sits on the throne and liveth for ever and ever.
Exodus 34:13 and Deut 6:13 as relates to God being a Jealous God and the worship of Christ as the Son and Lamb of God. Also Jesus being a God/god as opposed to the God.
Since God has exalted our worthy saviour, Jesus Christ, and asked that every knee should bow before him and every tongue acknowledge him as Lord, we obey and worship the true God in so doing. After all, we are commanded in scripture to heed various laws in society and to give honor to whom honor is due, and to respect authority. We do that as best as we can because we are a God fearing people.
Jesus is a God/god and a Lord/lord:
“The Lord said to my Lord, “sit at my right hand ….'” Mark 12:36 (2 lords). One is the Lord and the other is a Lord.Hebrews 1:8 & 9
“but unto the son he said, “thy throne o God is forever and ever…thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity therefore GOD even thy God hath anointed thee (Is 61, Luke 4:18f);
Following that, logically, John 1:1 shows two individuals… not one entity.Take care until next time.
There are only 3 items (that we are aware of) in all that exists, that were not created, they are;
The Father, All knowing, Almightily, the source of all things, eternal (I literally could go on forever).
The Son, the begotten, used by the Father in the act of creation, sent to the world 100% man, became our sacrifice for sin, ascended to the Father, our only access to the Father (all the books in the world wouldn't cover Him either).
Holy Spirit, seems to be referred to with some personality traits but on the whole, scripture does not truly portray the Holy Spirit as a “person” as we think of a person. This could be due to our lack of understanding of the Spiritual realm or as I've read somewhere in the forum it could be that it is simply the active will of God. I'm not sure scripture provides sufficient information for us to draw any definitive conclusions.
There are two meanings to “trinity”
trin·i·ty (trĭnʹĭ-tē) noun
plural trin·i·ties1. A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
2. Trinity Theology. The union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
Someone has argued that since other pagan sources contain “trinities” it cannot be of God. I would argue that Satan counterfeits the truth (sorry I just never cared for that type of argument). However, I do not believe that scripture portrays a Trinity of 3 equals (def. 2 above) but of a Son having a beginning, in that He came forth from the Father (the one true God) and is totally obedient to the Father, and, The Holy Spirit who has played a major (albeit uncertain) role in Gods dealings with Man.
Paul put it best: 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
If the word “God” is seen more as a title to a position, then as a name, it adds more harmony to the scriptures. Our government is made up of 3 parts executive, legislative, and judicial (no I'm not drawing some kind of comparison to trinity). The President is from the executive branch and his is the highest office. The vice president has almost no duties except to support the President but he is still an executive (and due all the rights and privileges except obedience if differing from the President). Would not some of the uses of the word “God” in scriptures fit better with the idea of a title for a group headed by the Father (Almighty God) with support from His only begotten Son and the Holy Spirit?
To OneoftheLordsGenerals,
Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 02 2006,13:06) First thing is first, I am not claiming that there are three gods. I claim three personas, One God. Second scripture overwhelmingly states the doctrine of the Trinity. I had sent you a pm and I am not sure why you have not re-sent it when i asked you too. Maybe you deleted it but that is ok. I will resay it as best as possible.
Yes you say that God is 3 personas. Therefore you cannot by reason of your belief say that God is a persona, as he is 3. You also cannot call God a HIM, because according to your belief, you should say THEM. God is not one person or mind, rather he is one committee or familyYet scripture calls God 'HIM', not THEY.
Surely God is not one substance that spawns 3 personas, rather God is a persona/mind who has a nature that he shares.
God's persona is surely greater than his nature. For God shares his nature with Christ and with redeemed humanity. Yet we will never be God HIMself.BTW: I do not have a PM from you, I have just checked. You may be confused with the similar post you made in the “Who is Jesus?” discussion. I replied to that post about 30 mins ago.
thx
Thanks for your last post seekingtruth.
Yes the invisible God manifests himself. He manifests himself in Christ primarily, in us, and even his own creation reveals him.
Yes God is the Almighty. At his right-hand is Christ, and at Christ's right hand are his people.
Remember the parable of the vine. Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. But the Father is the vine dresser. It is even said that God exists outside his own creation as not even the heavens and earth can contain him.
If we were to see the throne, we would see Christ seated on it. Around him would be the glory of the invisible God shining out to all eternity.
Just as light passess though a prism and shows white light's individual colour, so it is that God is manifest in his son and is the full expression of him. Christ shines all the attributes of God in bodily form. He is the glory of God, and only through him, may we come to the Father. For there is no other name whereby we can be saved and fellowship with God Almighty.
Yet even Christ teaches us that the Father is greater than himself and all that Christ can do is from the Father. It stand to reason that God is the source of all things that are good, and Christ is the primary way that God reveals these things to his creation. We must respect this and believe it, for the messiah taught us these things.
Take care and may God continue to bless you.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2006,05:56) Hi Kenrch, Thanks for your post.
Your statement:
God=Father and Son will be all in all.But doesn't scripture teach that:
- God=Father;
- the Father will be eventually in all;
- God has begotten a son who has his nature; and
- we too can share in God's divine nature.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but just one god,the father,from all things came and for whom all live, and there is but on lord,Jesus Christ through all things came and through all things live.So there is one God (1st commandment).
Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God (El) create us?
Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?Yet the son can be one with God, and we can be one with God too. In fact we can be one with Christ and each other as well.
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.The distinction is that there is one God (the person/identity) and there are many who have/share God's nature.
Jesus has God's nature and we too can share in God's nature.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.Hense: there are many gods, but there is one true GOD, or one original God, (Almighty) from where ALL came. Even Christ came from God. Believing that Christ came from God )not Christ is God) is very important if we wish our faith to be built on truth.
John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
t8,I have been trying to get back in the forum without success. It kept giving me an error on your end, I think
The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father and Son have the same Spirit.
Luk 10:21 In that hour the “Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy”. Jesus said, “I praise you, Father”, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these things from wise and intelligent people and revealing them to little children. Yes, Father, this is what pleased you.
Please notice:
In that hour the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy. Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,…As soon as the Holy Spirit showed up Jesus began talking to the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Father.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
When two or three gather in Jesus' name; “Who is in our midst”?
The Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit is Jesus.Paul said:
1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that “God may be all in all”.I never said that Jesus didn't have His own “nature”. Each of us have our own “nature” but we have a taste of the same Spirit. That Spirit (I pray) will make all of us “one” Just as the Father and Son are one.
The Father and Son and “all” His children have the same Spirit.
That is what makes the Father and Son one. If the Father and Son are “not” one in Spirit then please tell me how are they “one” and how are we to be “one”.I know that scripture says that “the Lord is one”. That's what Jesus said He and the Father are “one”. My question is How are the Father and Son made “one”?
Would you say that your spirit is “you”? If we had the same spirit then we wouldn't have this conversion; we would think alike.
Jesus and the Father have the “same Spirit”. They think alike. When “everyone” has the Spirit of the Father then we too will be “ONE”.
1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, “that God may be all in all”.
God is one, but He will be all in all. How could this be?
If the Holy Spirit is “not” the Spirit of God and Jesus then what is the Holy Spirit?
Looking forward to truth,
Peace be with you
[U][/U]
Hi Kenrch
Quote The Father and Son and “all” His children have the same Spirit.
That is what makes the Father and Son one. If the Father and Son are “not” one in Spirit then please tell me how are they “one” and how are we to be “one”.I know that scripture says that “the Lord is one”. That's what Jesus said He and the Father are “one”. My question is How are the Father and Son made “one”?
What I believe to be the truth is that God is a SPIRIT and lives in the realm of spirits.
He is lord of the Spirits.John 4
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth.Romans 1
When they knew God, they glorified him Not As God, neither were thankful; but became Vain in their Imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
And changed the glory of God
into an image made like man,
and an images like birds, or four footed beasts, or creeping things.When He formed us from the dust of the Earth He breathed the breath of Life into Adam.
That breath of life is a part of HIM (a part of his Spirit),
now when humans mate the two spirits joining sparks DNA into joining
and creates a new spirit anchored to flesh (new but still part of the original piece of God)
We are all part of the same Spirit,
we are all anchored to flesh.1 John 4
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.We all have minds of our own that make us individuals dependant on the choices we make,
we can live for the flesh and die OR
We can live for the spirit and the body still dies
and when the body dies that portion of Gods spirit
returns to Him
(corrupted by sin to differing degrees)
When each piece of HIM returns corrupted He sets it aside in a place He has created for them to awaite the final day of judgment.As I see it that is how we can all be of one spirit and also different from everyone else.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 02 2006,21:51) There are only 3 items (that we are aware of) in all that exists, that were not created, they are;
Hi seekingtruth,I think you are right. God is eternal and the son is begotten. God through his son created ALL things, which includes us. But God through Christ, didn't create Christ. Christ came from God alone.
That means that Christ is not created and he is after all called the ONLY begotten of the Father. Everything else came from God, but THROUGH Christ.
The Holy Spirit is also not created, but there is just one Spirit and one faith as it is written. It is also written that God is Spirit. So if the Father is the only true God and God is Spirit, then what are we to conclude?
I read once that the Greeks believed that all things were either uncreated or created. If this is so, then Greek philosophy was an inadequate model when describing Christ. We cannot say was he uncreated (God) or created (creation), when scripture tells us that he was begotten.
Greek thinking doesn't seem to have room for Christ. He is neither God, nor creation. Scripture tells us that he is between God and creation/man. Paul said that the Greeks seek wisdom, but Paul gave them the foolishness of the gospel which offended their pride.
Here we are, approximately 2000 years later, and people believe that Christ is either God or created, so Greek philosophy certainly left it's mark. But those who teach that Christ is begotten as scripture says, seem to suffer persecution from those who say he is God and also from those who say he is but mere man.
I leave you with the words of Origen back in the 200s (approximately).
Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos (gods), and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, …
Hi kenrch,
Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 03 2006,01:03) I have been trying to get back in the forum without success. It kept giving me an error on your end, I think
You should have access. The Forum was down for 1 day about 2 weeks ago, due to upgrades. Apart from that outage, I am not aware of any others, or problems with logging in.If you want to describe the symptoms in the “Help Desk” discussion, I will look into it. Although you obviously have access now.
Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 03 2006,20:03) Paul said:
1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that “God may be all in all”.I never said that Jesus didn't have His own “nature”. Each of us have our own “nature” but we have a taste of the same Spirit. That Spirit (I pray) will make all of us “one” Just as the Father and Son are one.
The Father and Son and “all” His children have the same Spirit.
That is what makes the Father and Son one. If the Father and Son are “not” one in Spirit then please tell me how are they “one” and how are we to be “one”.I know that scripture says that “the Lord is one”. That's what Jesus said He and the Father are “one”. My question is How are the Father and Son made “one”?
Would you say that your spirit is “you”? If we had the same spirit then we wouldn't have this conversion; we would think alike.
Jesus and the Father have the “same Spirit”. They think alike. When “everyone” has the Spirit of the Father then we too will be “ONE”.
1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, “that God may be all in all”.
God is one, but He will be all in all. How could this be?
If the Holy Spirit is “not” the Spirit of God and Jesus then what is the Holy Spirit?
Looking forward to truth,
Peace be with you
Hi kenrch,Yes I agree that it is in spirit that Jesus is one with the Father, and we are one with them and each other.
Is the spirit of a man our identity or who we are? I personally do not think so. I believe that we are souls. That we have bodies to house our soul that stitches us to the physical realm and spiritual bodies when we will live in that realm. I also think that our soul is dead without the spirit. The spirit is the part of God that gives us life and the soul is our identity.
The Holy Spirit is God's spirit. God breathed/spirit into Adam and Adam became a living soul. Without the spirit he was dead.
Even the son is alive because of God.
John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
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