The Trinity Doctrine

[seekingtruth]

I believe that Jesus is fully God as much as he contains as much of God as beings in our reality can comprehend. God created (at least) 2 realities that we are told of, our physical reality and the spiritual reality (there could be more but that is all we're told of or have any interaction with).

The point I'm trying to make is that God is greater then our reality alone or even the combination of ours and the spiritual (something that we cannot currently even comprehend). As I said before I believe that when God made our reality Jesus was begotten as a new manifestation and being of the Father he was then the method of creation. God the Father is greater then the Son but the Son is our only way to the Father. At any rate we are pushing the limits of what can be extrapolated from the imformation God has provided to us.

I cannot be dogmatic about the above and I'm open to further insight. I am not a skilled linguist
and could never hope (without help from God) to discuss the greek/Hebrew as I have not even begun to master english. However I do try to interpret meanings on how they fit best with the rest of scriptures.

Thank you

[Eliyah]

David,

You might ought to read this last post from Posted: Feb. 02 2006,09:53 concerning the Etymology of that word ' g-d ', as it was syncretistic practice for thousands of years.

However, just because each culture re-defined its own meaning for a word title name, does not mean that YHWH accepts man's re-defined meaning of an idol title name that was used and meant for heathen nations other deities.

For even T8 recognizes that the word ' g-d ' can refer to anything, and even satan the devil, for that is exactly who it does apply to.

Read that Etymology word search and you will see that the title of ' god ' is a title for jupiter and to the devil and his demons.

at ….https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=314;st=260

before you continue to dis-honor Him with all these idol title deities that you call Him by using the word ' g-d ', the very true Creator YHWH whom you claim is only worthy alone to worship.

The title of 'g-d ' is actually a title for satan and demons.

[truebelief4u]

Perhaps this will lay to rest the question of the authenticity of Matthew 28:19 .. .. .. please note what former Cardinal Ratzinger (now the Pope) had to say about it: http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm

Bluntly put, the “trinity dogma” is a pure fabrication of the early Roman Church. Formalizing it began with the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., and the finalization occurred during the Council of Trent (1545-1563 A.D). No Hebrew, nor early Christian, considered the “Holy Spirit” to be a person . . the Spirit is the active force/will of God, used to accomplish his purposes. It was the Roman Church that magically transformed the “Spirit” into a “person,” not the Bible.

Like many other of today’s entrenched doctrines, dogmas, and traditions, it is a product of the Roman Church, not the Bible. If most Protestants understood just how many of their teachings and traditions are pure fabrications of the Roman Church they would likely have heart failure.

I will not address other altered verses as they seem to have been pretty well covered in this thread. Suffice it to say the Roman Church, for 1200 years or so had a penchant for rearranging and altering things to suit themselves, and Protestantism adopted most of these things wholesale. [And why not; the Roman Church owned virtually every manuscript in existence, and weren’t about to give them to the Protestant rebels! And, the “traditions” had become so entrenched in Christianity, the Protestants didn’t give them much thought, adopting them as well.]

Today’s Christian leadership, for the most part, hasn’t got a clue! They are simply repeating what they have been taught by the “church,” and never give a thought to where it came from, whether the Scripture is accurate, or the tradition is correct. [Or worse, like some, they come up with some “new” version of Christianity and really get out in la-la-land.]

Perhaps this is why the Bible tells us to examine all things so that we may know that which is true, and to avoid false teachings and man-made traditions that have no Biblical authority?

QUESTION: As Matthew 28:19 is proven to be a spurious verse, and ALL other baptismal verses (See Acts 2:38 for example) make it a point to specifically state to baptize “in the name of Jesus,” are those who were baptized using the Matthew formula in need of fresh baptism?

And finally, for those who, for whatever reason, cling to the disproven Matthew formula, I would point out that to baptize “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,” is not baptizing in any “name” at all….those are TITLES, not NAMES. For those who cling to this formula, you’d have to be baptized in the name of YAHWEH, YASHUAH, and . . . hmmmm, got a problem here…the Holy Spirit doesn’t HAVE a NAME! [Understandable, since it is not a person.] Perhaps the Matthew formula believers should reconsider, and accept the fact that the verse/formula is incorrect, and go along with what the accurate texts show to be the correct formula, to baptize “in the name of Jesus.” [Or Yashuah, if you want to be technical.]

[Admin]

Quote (Eliyah @ Feb. 04 2006,03:11)

David, You might ought to read this last post from Posted: Feb. 02 2006,09:53 concerning the Etymology of that word ' g-d ', as it was syncretistic practice for thousands of years. However, just because each culture re-defined its own meaning for a word title name, does not mean that YHWH accepts man's re-defined meaning of an idol title name that was used and meant for heathen nations other deities. For even T8 recognizes that the word ' g-d ' can refer to anything, and even satan the devil, for that is exactly who it does apply to. Read that Etymology word search and you will see that the title of ' god ' is a title for jupiter and to the devil and his demons. at ….https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=314;st=260 before you continue to dis-honor Him with all these idol title deities that you call Him by using the word ' g-d ', the very true Creator YHWH whom you claim is only worthy alone to worship. The title of 'g-d ' is actually a title for satan and demons.

Eliyah,

This discussion is about the Trinity doctrine. It is not about Baal Gad or other teachings you promote. You are welcome to have a say like anyone, but stick to the subject. You have already started up a discussion about Baal. That is the appropriate place to discuss that. As the Super Admin, I have the ability to ban any member from this Forum if they go outside the rules.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 04 2006,22:02)

I believe that Jesus is fully God as much as he contains as much of God as beings in our reality can comprehend. God created (at least) 2 realities that we are told of, our physical reality and the spiritual reality (there could be more but that is all we're told of or have any interaction with). The point I'm trying to make is that God is greater then our reality alone or even the combination of ours and the spiritual (something that we cannot currently even comprehend). As I said before I believe that when God made our reality Jesus was begotten as a new manifestation and being of the Father he was then the method of creation. God the Father is greater then the Son but the Son is our only way to the Father. At any rate we are pushing the limits of what can be extrapolated from the imformation God has provided to us. I cannot be dogmatic about the above and I'm open to further insight. I am not a skilled linguist and could never hope (without help from God) to discuss the greek/Hebrew as I have not even begun to master english. However I do try to interpret meanings on how they fit best with the rest of scriptures. Thank you

Hi seekingtruth,

I challenge you to let the scriptures teach you rather than putting your own opinion on scripture.

Try these scriptures on for size.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 3:22-23
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas {That is, Peter} or the world or life or death or the present or the future all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

John 20:17
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Is Jesus, God, in these scriptures. If not then who is he?

[seekingtruth]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2006,02:53)

Hi seekingtruth, I challenge you to let the scriptures teach you rather than putting your own opinion on scripture. Try these scriptures on for size. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. Is Jesus, God, in these scriptures. If not then who is he?

How are you?

Let me first say that what I have written is my opinion of what the scriptures teach.

I must not have not put it well, since as I see it, my statement was in complete harmony with the verses you quoted. As a matter of fact you quoted I Cor 8:6 and it states “there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came” (notice all things came from Him as the source), “and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” notice “through whom all things came, as in the conduit. Jesus was not the originating source the Father was.

Don't get me wrong there is none greater (except the Father) in all of creation. I believe as the begotten he contains within himself the very essence of God to the extent that it is part of our reality (I believe that the Father exceeds our reality).

Until quite recently (and for 20 years) I believed that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were an unexplainable three in one beyond our comprehension (as this was what I was taught). But the word begotten keep speaking of a beginning and as I sought the Lord on what this meant he gave me this revelation.

Remember that God has not called many wise but he has provisions to help those of us not gifted as scholars (as I believe many of you are), if we ernestly seek after truth.

To anticipate what would have been my reply a few years ago I'm sure some will question the source of the revelation, as did I, but as I went to scriptures this revelation added a harmony to the scriptures that was lacking prior to it (this is in my opinion the best test).

I know I've done a poor job of presenting my case, it would be hard enough if I was a scholar.

By the way I still do believe that Jesus is deity and worthy of worship and without Him we have no access to the Father, I pray we are not arguing semantics.

[seekingtruth]

T8
one more thing, as I didn't see how what I wrote conflict with the scriptures you listed, I would appreciate it if you would spell it out (I tend to be dense). Truth is more important to me then any opinion I may have.

Thank you

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Feb. 03 2006,03:58)

JOHN 17:3 “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (Note, two are mentioned here.  One is the ONLY TRUE God.  The other is the one whom this only true God sent forth, Jesus Christ.  In my experience, the one doing the sending is usually above the one sent.) It's true, Jesus is called Mighty God, in Isaiah, but only our Heavenly Father is ever called “Almighty God.” 1 CORINTHIANS 8:5-6 “For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” Coldfusion, I'm wondering what you think of these scriptures. david.

David are there any other scriptures that suggest that there are “more” than one God?

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Taking in context aren't these scriptures speaking of Idols as other gods. There is none other God but one 1Cor. 8:4.
How many gods did the Egyptians have. Weren't the Roman Emperors called lords etc. Even my JWs friend at work says the same. I know that the Morman's believe that their are more that one god. They contend that Our father is but one god who owns a part of the universe.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 05 2006,23:32)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2006,02:53) Hi seekingtruth, I challenge you to let the scriptures teach you rather than putting your own opinion on scripture. Try these scriptures on for size. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. Is Jesus, God, in these scriptures. If not then who is he? How are you? Let me first say that what I have written is my opinion of what the scriptures teach. I must not have not put it well, since as I see it, my statement was in complete harmony with the verses you quoted. As a matter of fact you quoted I Cor 8:6 and it states “there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came” (notice all things came from Him as the source), “and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” notice “through whom all things came, as in the conduit. Jesus was not the originating source the Father was. Don't get me wrong there is none greater (except the Father) in all of creation. I believe as the begotten he contains within himself the very essence of God to the extent that it is part of our reality (I believe that the Father exceeds our reality). Until quite recently (and for 20 years) I believed that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were an unexplainable three in one beyond our comprehension (as this was what I was taught). But the word begotten keep speaking of a beginning and as I sought the Lord on what this meant he gave me this revelation. Remember that God has not called many wise but he has provisions to help those of us not gifted as scholars (as I believe many of you are), if we ernestly seek after truth. To anticipate what would have been my reply a few years ago I'm sure some will question the source of the revelation, as did I, but as I went to scriptures this revelation added a harmony to the scriptures that was lacking prior to it (this is in my opinion the best test). I know I've done a poor job of presenting my case, it would be hard enough if I was a scholar. By the way I still do believe that Jesus is deity and worthy of worship and without Him we have no access to the Father, I pray we are not arguing semantics.

Great, I agree with you. I look forward to learning and sharing the scriptures together.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 06 2006,00:15)

T8 one more thing, as I didn't see how what I wrote conflict with the scriptures you listed, I would appreciate it if you would spell it out (I tend to be dense). Truth is more important to me then any opinion I may have. Thank you

No probs. Probably my fault for not seeing what you were saying. Sometimes one tends to get use to persecution or conflict, but it is refreshing to find someone who really wants the truth and is humble enough to admit that he doesn't know everything. Good on you. May you find the teasures that God has hidden away for you.

[jbl]

I'd like to comment on “more” than one God.
Men are gods, Satan is a god, the Father is God, (2Cor. 4:4, Psalms 82:6, Ephesians 1:3), etc. I know this is old knews, but 'god' is a title given to more than just the Almighty God.

11 “Who among the gods is like you, O LORD ?
Who is like you—
majestic in holiness,
awesome in glory,
working wonders?
Exodus 15:11

No one is like Yahweh. Is it speaking of idols? Well, idols are not mentioned once before this scripture nor are they after.

I'm curious what everyone on this network believes idols are. Are they the figment of man's imagination or inspired? I believe they're inspired by wicked spirits.

16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods
and angered him with their detestable idols.
17 They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—
gods they had not known,
gods that recently appeared,
gods your fathers did not fear.
Deuteronomy 32:16, 17

Over half the world worships images of their gods. Are they all fictional and unreal? Is it coincidence every society on this planet has believed in higher spirit beings. Why have these spirits told people to do things not always correct (i.e. drinking blood, sacrificing)? Why have they all crafted images of them? I do not believe that these Non-Christian gods are fake. Hindhu deities have performed miracles in the past.

Because Yahweh acknolwedges that these idols are gods, and because these demons are behind them, I believe demons are gods. I'm only man and imperfect so perhaps I am mistaken, I don't know. I do feel that that this should be worth consideration.

[kenrch]

If there is more than one god then our God made them. If you believe that then you believe in one God, my God, our God! I see no scriptural proof of another God. Yes we are gods to the animals. No! there is only one God (see acts 17:22-30).

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

[kenrch]

There are false gods of clay. Statues of lizards, golden calfs, etc. Money will be a god, if you let it. There are gods but not the “real” God.

[david]

Quote

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Taking in context aren't these scriptures speaking of Idols as other gods.

Kenrch, I'm really not sure what point you're making. “whether in heaven or in earth,” many gods.

Quote

There is none other God but one 1Cor. 8:4. How many gods did the Egyptians have. Weren't the Roman Emperors called lords etc. Even my JWs friend at work says the same.

You say there is none other God but one. But your very next sentence asks how many gods the Egyptians had. This is where understanding comes in: There is only one true God. (John 17:3) There is only one is described as being “alone,” the “most high.” (Ps 83:18)

Quote

There is none other God but one 1Cor. 8:4. How many gods did the Egyptians have. Weren't the Roman Emperors called lords etc. Even my JWs friend at work says the same.

And so do I. There is only one true God, Jehovah, the Father, the “Almighy,” the “most high.” But others could be described as god, or gods, either because of their might or because of their being worshipped. Remember, even a person's belly could be called a god, if food is your main thing in life.
Kenrch, I might need a clearer explanation of what you're saying.

david.

[david]

Quote

There are false gods of clay. Statues of lizards, golden calfs, etc. Money will be a god, if you let it. There are gods but not the “real” God.

Right, exactly. But besides this, Jesus, for example is called a God. Looking at the meaning of the original Hebrew word, and that word does fit him. It certainly fits him more than it fits Satan, mighty as Satan is. So, whether in heaven (the angels were called gods) or on earth, many can be called a god, or gods, but to us, as the scripture goes, there is actually one God. Or as John 17:3 says, the only true God. Unlike any other “mighty” one, he alone is “Almighty.”

[seekingtruth]

I believe “god” refers to our treatment of something as god (putting our faith, trust, adoration into it) but there is only one Who is God

[Cubes]

Quote (david @ Feb. 11 2006,23:24)

And so do I.  There is only one true God, Jehovah, the Father, the “Almighy,” the “most high.”  But others could be described as god, or gods, either because of their might or because of their being worshipped.  Remember, even a person's belly could be called a god, if food is your main thing in life.

In agreement to what you are saying David, recently my family and I were watching an episode of the Crocodile Hunter. A very large crocodile had trespassed into a certain village and was terrorizing the villagers. It affected the community's way of life, even the brawny fishermen did not want to go fishing at night anymore. So Steve Irwin and his team from the Australian Zoo were called to the rescue and were able to capture, contain, and with the help of the villagers who had never handled a crocodile that closely before, transport and release the crocodile in a different territory. His effort was to educate the villagers in how to safely coexist with crocodiles so that a siting should not automatically result in killing of a crocodile out of fear.

Well, when it was all over, I felt that he was worshipped as a god. I would not be surprised if songs have been written of him… but certainly, they honored him w/ the highest honor their people had to give and it was something to see their gratitude, admiration, homage etc.

Watching that episode was a good example I felt, in illustrating, that although there are many gods, we understand that there is only one true God. The One Most High God on whom all other gods depend and have their being. And that One True God, according to Jesus Christ, the prophets and apostles, is The Father.

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Feb. 11 2006,23:29)

Quote There are false gods of clay. Statues of lizards, golden calfs, etc.  Money will be a god, if you let it. There are gods but not the “real” God. Right, exactly.  But besides this, Jesus, for example is called a God.  Looking at the meaning of the original Hebrew word, and that word does fit him.  It certainly fits him more than it fits Satan, mighty as Satan is.  So, whether in heaven (the angels were called gods) or on earth, many can be called a god, or gods, but to us, as the scripture goes, there is actually one God.  Or as John 17:3 says, the only true God.  Unlike any other “mighty” one, he alone is “Almighty.”

Act 17:24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

All the Roman gods no matter how many were false gods. I don't believe there are any “real” gods but Jehovah (Yahweh).

As I said before the latter day saints believe there are more Gods that Jehovah. Jehovah is our God. Zeus is a God of different people and worlds. I don't believe that. I believe that Jehovah (Yahweh) is the one God of everything in this universe or any other universe star or anything that be.

Does that make sense?

[Sultan]

Yes. In other words Yahweh is not just a God by title, but by His very being. He is true deity. He defines deity. Others are called gods, but are nothing. The term god is just a title. It's funny how what you're saying is Bible, but it seems that sometimes people just want to disagree for the sake of disagreement.

[Sultan]

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 11 2006,22:21)

Quote (david @ Feb. 11 2006,23:24) And so do I. There is only one true God, Jehovah, the Father, the “Almighy,” the “most high.” But others could be described as god, or gods, either because of their might or because of their being worshipped. Remember, even a person's belly could be called a god, if food is your main thing in life. In agreement to what you are saying David, recently my family and I were watching an episode of the Crocodile Hunter. A very large crocodile had trespassed into a certain village and was terrorizing the villagers. It affected the community's way of life, even the brawny fishermen did not want to go fishing at night anymore. So Steve Irwin and his team from the Australian Zoo were called to the rescue and were able to capture, contain, and with the help of the villagers who had never handled a crocodile that closely before, transport and release the crocodile in a different territory. His effort was to educate the villagers in how to safely coexist with crocodiles so that a siting should not automatically result in killing of a crocodile out of fear. Well, when it was all over, I felt that he was worshipped as a god. I would not be surprised if songs have been written of him… but certainly, they honored him w/ the highest honor their people had to give and it was something to see their gratitude, admiration, homage etc. Watching that episode was a good example I felt, in illustrating, that although there are many gods, we understand that there is only one true God. The One Most High God on whom all other gods depend and have their being. And that One True God, according to Jesus Christ, the prophets and apostles, is The Father.

Very applicable analogy.

[Author]

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