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Nick? Are you going to answer FYI?
Hi,
I thought the inquisition was over!What did Thomas mean?
Did he mean Jesus was the God?
Or did he mean he was “his God”
Or did he mean that in seeing Jesus he saw both Jesus and the Father in him?By the way are you in Jesus Christ?
Hi Nick Hassan.
I think Thomas meant that Jesus was his God. Is he your God also Nick?Hi Nick Hassan.
I didnt mention worship. Please dont change the subject. Here was my question “Is he your God also Nick?”. I suppose ill have to assume its a no unless im told otherwise. Does it concern you that you and Thomas have different views on Christ?Hi K,
Do you understand the words of Thomas?
Jesus said whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
My God is Yahweh.Hi Nick Hassan.
My God is also YaHWeY.Hi Berean2005.
You asked the question. What are your thoughts?Hi kenosis and FYI,
You need to make your mind up who your God is. If your God is a trinity God it is not the creator God of the bible. It is a strange god of the babylonians.Worship is given to the Lamb in Revelation. The elders fell down before Him… and sang a song to Him – now if that is not worship then I don't know what is.
If all authority has been given to him by the Father and he has been exalted to a place above all others, then surely Jesus is deserving of worship. He gets the same acclaim as does the Father in the second part of Rev 5. Strength, honour, glory and blessing is bestowed upon him by the elders, the angels around the throne, the 4 living creatures and the ten thousand times ten thousand people…. now that is a lot of worship I suggest.
So yes I do worship him and will do so for eternity. For the price he paid for my sin and for the fact that he overcame and has given us the chance to have relationship again with the Father. He was the only one found to be worthy to take the scroll from the Hand of God. He is worthy of our worship. This passage in Revelation is evidence of worship given to the lamb, so why is this such an issue.
Also at his birth, the angels worshiped him… So I guess we have reason to do like wise. Heb 1:6
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. When we worship the Son we do so because he was obedient to death, this act was what has made him worthy. In honouring and worshipping Him as Lord we show our love to the Father.
Quote (Artizan007 @ June 21 2005,11:42) Worship is given to the Lamb in Revelation. The elders fell down before Him… and sang a song to Him – now if that is not worship then I don't know what is. If all authority has been given to him by the Father and he has been exalted to a place above all others, then surely Jesus is deserving of worship. He gets the same acclaim as does the Father in the second part of Rev 5. Strength, honour, glory and blessing is bestowed upon him by the elders, the angels around the throne, the 4 living creatures and the ten thousand times ten thousand people…. now that is a lot of worship I suggest.
So yes I do worship him and will do so for eternity. For the price he paid for my sin and for the fact that he overcame and has given us the chance to have relationship again with the Father. He was the only one found to be worthy to take the scroll from the Hand of God. He is worthy of our worship. This passage in Revelation is evidence of worship given to the lamb, so why is this such an issue.
Also at his birth, the angels worshiped him… So I guess we have reason to do like wise. Heb 1:6
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. When we worship the Son we do so because he was obedient to death, this act was what has made him worthy. In honouring and worshipping Him as Lord we show our love to the Father.
Yes, and when we worship Christ it honors our Father God!Hey Nick, both the Saducees and the Pharisees were right and wrong and Jesus showed them up for what and who they were. I lean towards your view on a number of things, but sometimes your answers bemuse me. If you are a teacher – teach, and just so you know, it may take a lot longer than you expect for the penny to drop. After three years the disciples were almost just as clueless as when they first started. Not saying that anyone out there is clueless but we are all on a journey and are learning lessons – daily. Each day you learn new things to balance what you learned yesterday. Surely that is how we grow. Not all revelation comes at once. Glory to glory, faith to faith, revelation to revelation… Mar 4:28 For the earth brings out fruit of itself, first the blade, then the ear, after that the full grain in the ear… its a process my friend.
This is a forum for discussion about God, Trinity or not, or you are just doing exactly what you say you are defending. If truth is revealed in the correct mannor then the change process can take place. It took revelation for Peter to realise who Jesus really was. So if God has revealed something to you that I have not had, teach me but don't expect me to grasp it right away. I am on a journey sir and loving every step of the way. We are all learning and relearning.
Encourage, with truth is my suggestion and here is Paul's:
Phi 1:15 Some indeed even preach Christ because of envy and strife, and some also of good will.
Phi 1:16 Those, indeed, preach Christ out of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds.
Phi 1:17 But these others preach in love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel.
Phi 1:18 What then? Nevertheless, in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached. And I rejoice in this. Yet, also I will rejoice.
Phi 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,You have taught me alot… and what i have learned I am greatful for.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2005,11:28) Hi kenosis and FYI,
You need to make your mind up who your God is. If your God is a trinity God it is not the creator God of the bible. It is a strange god of the babylonians.
Nick,No it is not for me to “make my mind up”.
I have been bought with a price and am not my own, I belong to another – God, who bought me with His blood.
I have quoted numerous scripture and am more than capable of posting it again.
My God is my Saviour, and I confess no other. YHWH – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Nick,
Are we really going to debate this again? We have been down this road.
You consider the orthodox view of God as “heretical”, the true believers know you and those who believe as you are heretical:
Jude 1: 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
I had hoped we could maintain a positive dialogue, are we to retrace the former steps? If so I am able.
You are more than aware that we serve One (echad) God!
Benedictions and blessings: Whereas in the OT the benediction form was STRICTLY that of YHWH, in the NT, the 'multiple agents' creep in.
Old Testament examples:
May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face shine upon us, (Ps 67.1)
Say to them: “The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace.” (Num 6.23f)
Eli would bless Elkanah and his wife, saying, “May the LORD give you children by this woman (I Sam 2.20)
(But compare the benediction/prayer of Jacob in Gen 48: “Then he blessed Joseph and said, 'May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm — may he bless these boys. '”// here we have the Angel, but it is obvious from the construction that the three-fold phrases are ALL the same agent–'he'.)
New Testament cases:
2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13.14) [Notice the source of blessing has 'expanded' to a trinitarian source!]Rom 1.7 (and 2 Cor 1.2, 1 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.2, Phil 1.2): Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Notice the double source of grace/peace)
Rom 16.20: The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (notice: grace comes from Jesus alone?)
I Cor 16.23: The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you.
Rev 1.4: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. (Notice: grace comes from BOTH again)
Eph 6.23: Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Notice: dual source)
2 Cor 1.3-4: Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort (Note: single-source, the Father)
Gal 1.3: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Notice: dual-source)
Main Entry: dox•ol•o•gy
Pronunciation: däk-'sä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Etymology: Medieval Latin doxologia, from Late Greek, from Greek doxa opinion, glory (from dokein to seem, seem good) + -logia -logy — more at DECENT
: a usually liturgical expression of praise to GodGlorify – (1.) To make glorious, or cause so to appear (John 12:28; 13:31, 32; 17:4,5).
(2.) Spoken of God to “shew forth his praise” (1 Cor. 6:20; 10:31).
Glory – (Heb. kabhod; Gr. doxa). (1.) Abundance, wealth, treasure, and hence honour (Ps. 49:12); glory (Gen. 31:1; Matt. 4:8; Rev. 21:24, 26).
(2.) Honour, dignity (1 Kings 3:13; Heb. 2:7 1 Pet. 1:24); of God (Ps. 19:1; 29:1); of the mind or heart (Gen. 49:6; Ps. 7:5; Acts 2:46).
(3.) Splendour, brightness, majesty (Gen. 45:13; Isa. 4:5; Acts 22:11; 2 Cor. 3:7); of Jehovah (Isa. 59:19; 60:1; 2 Thess. 1:9).
(4.) The glorious moral attributes, the infinite perfections of God (Isa. 40:5; Acts 7:2; Rom. 1:23; 9:23; Eph. 1:12). Jesus is the “brightness of the Father's glory” (Heb. 1:3; John 1:14; 2:11).
(5.) The bliss of heaven (Rom. 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18; Heb. 2:10; 1 Pet. 5:1, 10).
(6.) The phrase “Give glory to God” (Josh. 7:19; Jer. 13:16) is a Hebrew idiom meaning, “Confess your sins.” The words of the Jews to the blind man, “Give God the praise” (John 9:24), are an adjuration to confess. They are equivalent to, “Confess that you are an impostor,” “Give God the glory by speaking the truth;” for they denied that a miracle had been wrought.
Worship – homage rendered to God which it is sinful (idolatry) to render to any created being (Ex. 34:14; Isa. 2:8). Such worship was refused by Peter (Acts 10:25,26) and by an angel (Rev. 22:8,9).
“glory” (from dokeo, “to seem”), primarily signifies an opinion, estimate, and hence, the honor resulting from a good opinion. It is used (1) (a) of the nature and acts of God in self-manifestation, i.e., what He essentially is and does, as exhibited in whatever way he reveals Himself in these respects, and particularly in the person of Christ, in whom essentially His “glory” has ever shone forth and ever will do, John 17:5,24; Heb. 1:3; it was exhibited in the character and acts of Christ in the days of His flesh, John 1:14; John 2:11; at Cana both His grace and His power were manifested, and these constituted His “glory;” so also in the resurrection of Lazarus, John 11:4,40; the “glory” of God was exhibited in the resurrection of Christ, Rom. 6:4, and in His ascension and exaltation, 1 Pet. 1:21, likewise on the Mount of Transfiguration, 2 Pet. 1:17. In Rom. 1:23 His “everlasting power and Divinity” are spoken of as His “glory,” i.e., His attributes and power as revealed through creation; in Rom. 3:23 the word denotes the manifested perfection of His character, especially His righteousness, of which all men fall short; in Col. 1:11 “the might of His glory” signifies the might which is characteristic of His “glory;” in Eph. 1:6,12,14, “the praise of the glory of His grace” and “the praise of His glory” signify the due acknowledgement of the exhibition of His attributes and ways; in Eph. 1:17, “the Father of glory” describes Him as the source from whom all Divine splendor and perfection proceed in their manifestation, and to whom they belong; (b) of the character and ways of God as exhibited through Christ to and through believers, 2 Cor. 3:18; 4:6; Â of the state of blessedness into which believers are to enter hereafter through being brought into the likeness of Christ, e.g., Rom. 8:18,21; Phil. 3:21 (RV, “the body of His glory”); 1 Pet. 5:1,10; Rev. 21:11; (d) brightness or splendor, (1) supernatural, emanating from God (as in the shekinah “glory,” in the pillar of cloud and in the Holy of Holies, e.g., Exod. 16:10; 25:22), Luke 2:9; Acts 22:11; Rom. 9:4; 2 Cor. 3:7; Jas. 2:1; in Titus 2:13 it is used of Christ's return “the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ” (RV); cp. Phil. 3:21, above; (2) natural, as of the heavenly bodies, 1 Cor. 15:40,41; (II) of good reputation, praise, honor, Luke 14:10 (RV, “glory,” for AV, “worship”); John 5:41 (RV, “glory,” for AV, “honor”); John 7:18; 8:50; 12:43 (RV, “glory,” for AV, “praise”); 2 Cor. 6:8 (RV, “glory,” for AV “honor”); Phil. 3:19; Heb. 3:3; in 1 Cor. 11:7, of man as representing the authority of God, and of woman as rendering conspicuous the authority of man; in 1 Thess. 2:6, “glory” probably stands, by metonymy, for material gifts, an honorarium, since in human estimation “glory” is usually expressed in things material.
The word is used in ascriptions of praise to God, e.g., Luke 17:18; John 9:24, RV, “glory” (AV, “praise”); Acts 12:23; as in doxologies (lit., “glory-words”), e.g., Luke 2:14; Rom. 11:36; 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Rev. 1:6. See DIGNITY, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP.
“to make obeisance, do reverence to” (from pros, “towards,” and kuneo, “to kiss”), is the most frequent word rendered “to worship.” It is used of an act of homage or reverence (a) to God, e.g., Matt. 4:10; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor. 14:25; Rev. 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16; 19:10 (2nd part); 22:9; (b) to Christ, e.g., Matt. 2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6, in a quotation from the Sept. of Deut. 32:43, referring to Christ's Second Advent; Â to a man, Matt. 18:26; (d) to the Dragon, by men, Rev. 13:4; (e) to the Beast, his human instrument, Rev. 13:4,8,12; 14:9,11; (f) the image of the Beast, Rev. 13:15; 14:11; 16:2; (g) to
demons, Rev. 9:20; (h) to idols, Acts 7:43.
Note: As to Matt. 18:26, this is mentioned as follows, in the “List of readings and renderings preferred by the American Committee” (see RV Classes of Passages, IV): “At the word 'worship' in Matt. 2:2, etc., add the marginal note 'The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man (see chap. Matt. 18:26) or to God (see chap. Matt. 4:10)'.” The Note to John 9:38 in the American Standard Version in this connection is most unsound; it implies that Christ was a creature. J. N. Darby renders the verb “do homage” [see the Revised Preface to the Second Edition (1871) of his New Translation].
“to revere,” stressing the feeling of awe or devotion, is used of “worship” (a) to God, Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7; Acts 16:14; 18:7,13; (b) to a goddess, Acts 19:27. See DEVOUT, No. 3.
akin to No. 2, “to honor religiously,” is used in Rom. 1:25.
“to serve, to render religious service or homage,” is translated “to worship” in Phil. 3:3, “(who) worship (by the Spirit of God),” RV, AV, “(which) worship (God in the spirit);” the RV renders it “to serve” (for AV, “to worship”) in Acts 7:42; 24:14; AV and RV, “(the) worshipers” in Heb. 10:2, present participle, lit., “(the ones) worshiping.” See SERVE.
“to act piously towards,” is translated “ye worship” in Acts 17:23. See PIETY (to show).
Notes: (1) The worship of God is nowhere defined in Scripture. A consideration of the above verbs shows that it is not confined to praise; broadly it may be regarded as the direct acknowledgement to God, of His nature, attributes, ways and claims, whether by the outgoing of the heart in praise and thanksgiving or by deed done in such acknowledgment. (2) In Acts 17:25 therapeuo, “to serve, do service to” (so RV), is rendered “is worshiped.” See CURE, HEAL.
denotes “an object of worship” (akin to A, No. 3); Acts 17:23 (see DEVOTION); in 2 Thess. 2:4, “that is worshiped;” every object of “worship,” whether the true God or pagan idols, will come under the ban of the Man of Sin.
“will-worship” (ethelo, “to will,” threskeia, “worship”), occurs in Col. 2:23, voluntarily adopted “worship,” whether unbidden or forbidden, not that which is imposed by others, but which one affects.
for which see RELIGION, is translated “worshiping” in Col. 2:18.
Note: In Luke 14:10, AV, doxa, “glory” (RV), is translated “worship.”Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2005,11:28) Hi kenosis and FYI,
You need to make your mind up who your God is. If your God is a trinity God it is not the creator God of the bible. It is a strange god of the babylonians.
Hi Nick Hassan.
This kind of post is not helpful. I have already told you who my God is (YaHWeY), so what do I have to make my mind up about? If the tri-unity is demonstrably false then it should be easy for you to prove this by explaining the scriptures that support the doctrine, within a unitarian framework. If i post you some of them would you be willing to do this? Please answer yes or no.Hi Atrizan007.
For you, is Jesus “God” or “a god”?Hi Nick Hassan.
Oh I should also mention that i will not inundate you with scriptures, perhaps 5 or 10. And its only fair that you also post me scriptures to explain in a trinitarian framework. So you are quite welcome to post the same number i have posted you, when you have answered them of course. I think this is a good way to see where the truth lies. I hope you will accept.Kenosis wrote:
“Hi Nick Hassan.
Oh I should also mention that i will not inundate you with scriptures, perhaps 5 or 10. And its only fair that you also post me scriptures to explain in a trinitarian framework. So you are quite welcome to post the same number i have posted you, when you have answered them of course. I think this is a good way to see where the truth lies. I hope you will accept.”I wholeheartedly agree!
Gentleman,
I see a lot has transpired since the last time I was here. It seems that the discussion has exploded in my absence. Nevertheless, from what I skimmed, it would appear that some basic facts have yet to be established, so I hope to help in doing so.
Trinitarians,
Here is a simple question and a challenge for you:
Do you believe that scripture alone should establish the fundamental doctrines of the faith, or do you believe that we inherit our fundamental beliefs from tradition?
If you answer the former, then here is my challenge to you:
Construct a definition of the Trinity using scripture alone – no interjections of your interpretations, just the scriptures themselves, arranged in whatever order you like, in such a way as to explain the Trinity doctrine.
When you fail at this task, you will then be confronted with this basic truth:
The Trinity doctrine is a belief established by tradition. You can take that doctrine and read it back into scripture if you so choose, but you will not find it taught anywhere in the scriptures themselves.
If you don't believe me, take the challenge and prove me wrong if you like!
FYI,
It's good to see you actually discussing the issue openly these days!
Quote (Guest @ June 21 2005,21:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2005,11:28) Hi kenosis and FYI,
You need to make your mind up who your God is. If your God is a trinity God it is not the creator God of the bible. It is a strange god of the babylonians.
Hi Nick Hassan.
This kind of post is not helpful. I have already told you who my God is (YaHWeY), so what do I have to make my mind up about? If the tri-unity is demonstrably false then it should be easy for you to prove this by explaining the scriptures that support the doctrine, within a unitarian framework. If i post you some of them would you be willing to do this? Please answer yes or no.Hi Atrizan007.
For you, is Jesus “God” or “a god”?
Hi K,
I challenge you to show me specifically from scripture that Buddha and Allah are not God. I know and you know they are not but where is it written they are not? The words themselves do not appear in scripture. Neither does trinity.We show what is written about God. Trinity is not written so it is up to you to prove we should step off the safe path into speculation. You should show us where God advises us to take these steps and how it will improve our relationship with Him to do so.
It is you who brings a new doctrine, not us.
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