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Hold on K.
A little early for judgement wouldn't you say? We have hardly met.You explanation so far is rather thin on substance. How can it relate to the incarnation based on the greek?
I was just comparing your theory which was unsubstantiated with Artizan007s theory which seemed to be well supported. As ive already noted, i agree with his. Just my observation.
Hi K,
Well come on work with me. We are trying to grasp the truth here and not compete. No one has it all and we can all learn from each other.Hi Nick Hasan,
Very well, i will do some study and might make a post later. In the mean time can i ask that you provide some scripture to support your theory that the Son was begotten before His incarnation? Thank you.Hi,
The reason I have not done so yet is that I feel it relates to this exact matter at hand. Once we can agree as to what this means we may be closer to the truth. These are precious words we study that deserve more care than some others show to them.OK?Just a quick question, if the HS is not a person – then what has been sent? A power source, a breath a non-entity etc. Then how is it said that you baptise in the Name of the HS as well as the Name of the Father and of the Son. Surely you would not baptise in the name of the HS if it were just God's Spirit and surely God knows the use of language and would not say this if it is not exactly what He intended to say. He would have just said in the Name of the Father and the Son surely. Why include this in the name of if it means nothing. Just a thought.
Acts say “And you will receive power after the HS is come upon you. That would mean you will receive power when the Spirit of God, God who is Spirit comes upon you? So you are saying that God's Spirit was sent from within God and came to us to dwell upon us. Is that not just like the concept of the Trinity. Something from within God but part of Him and dwelling in two places at the same time.
Also that implies that God as a Spirit has a spirit. What exactly do you mean by that? Does that not imply that God has a spirit body? Or that God has multiple spirits. One in heaven and one sent to earth. So if you can clarify what you mean it will help. Thanks
Also, If God and Jesus are separate how then can the Holy Spirit be both the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of God. That is saying that two individuals join their spirit to make one Spirit surely.
I kind of understand why you think what you do. But Jesus calls Him the Comforter and uses personal pronouns to describe the HS.
So is that translated wrong too in your view? Is this not what the Unitarians believe?
I will look some more on this as i have not really studied it that much. I guess it is a good thing to look at.
Thanks
Acts 13: 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
It would appear that the Word took on flesh and dwelt among us refers to the incarnation. But the status of “first-born” or “only-begotten” is in this scripture applied directly to the resurrection of Christ from the dead, not His birth into a human body.
OT scripture is also quoted to confirm. Also, many times in the NT scriptures Christ is “specifically” reffered to as the “first-born from the dead”.
So the Hebrew writer is referring to Christ being raised from the dead as “begotten”:
Hebrews 1:5 – For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
the glory, as of the only begotten of the Father;
a glory becoming him, suitable to him as such; the very real glory of the Son of God; for the “as”, here, is not a note of similitude, but of certainty, as in (Matthew 14:5) (Psalms 2:8) and the word is here called, “the only begotten of the Father”; which cannot be said of Christ, as man; for as such, he was not “begotten” at all: nor on the account of his resurrection from the dead; for so he could not be called the “only begotten”, since there are others that have been, and millions that will be raised from the dead, besides him: nor by reason of adoption; for if adopted, then not begotten; these two are inconsistent; besides, he could not be called the only begotten, in this sense, because there are many adopted sons, even all the elect of God: nor by virtue of his office, as magistrates are called the sons of God; for then he would be so only in a figurative and metaphorical sense, and not properly; whereas he is called God's own Son, the Son of the same nature with him; and, as here, the only begotten of the Father, begotten by him in the same nature, in a way inconceivable and inexpressible by us:
Hi Artizan007
Just posting on the fly. This is intended perhaps just to add to the questions you've raised concerning the Holy spirit, rather than dissolve them. Two scriptures come to mind that say that it is the spirit of a man that knows the man, and the spirit of God knows God or something close to that. So that's something to think about. The other scripture goes some thing like “the God of all comfort…” and applies to the father as do most of the God scriptures in the NT. This seems to line up with the scriptures that say of God Almighty [Father] that “only thou art holy” and “Father of Lights” and “The Only True God.” This is not to say that Christ is not the True Vine, The Truth or the Light, but even we also, through him, are to some extent, if we abide in Christ. And how does God accomplish this, through his Holy Spirit, first to Christ and also through Christ to us.
So, here is something else to consider: If the Holy Spirit is a Third person, then why is it that Christ or the Apostles do not address HIM but address the Father or Christ instead? I could be overlooking some scriptures to this effect. Now we know that the holy spirit speaks… but isn't that God's way of communicating directly with the Prophets and Apostles (barring angels)? If God wanted to inspire an apostle to write an Epistle, how would he go about doing it? If he wanted to talk with a prophet? He'd either send an angel or do it by his spirit. I can't think of other examples. So that the holy spirit is God's way of personally reaching and communing with his servants, among other things.
Yet, it is telling that these people who receive communication THROUGH or by means of the holy spirit, also do not address the Holy Spirit but tend to give their response to the Father or Christ. I think that is significant. It lines up with the fact that Christ calls the Father, his Father rather than the holy Spirit. And also during his baptism, that although the Spirit was manifested for all to see, the Voice that was heard came from heaven… else, two persons should have spoken…after all, both are spirit…
I recently called my sister in Africa to congratulate her on the birth of her newborn. Regrettably I couldn't be there in person but through the means of the man-made technology, I could speak to her, hear her voice, hear the baby's cry and be a part of the experience somewhat. I later noted that she knew it was I on the phone and enjoyed my PRESENCE, and yet, she understood that I was in the U.S. while my voice was transmitted across the globe… oh it was my voice alright (in soundwaves that could be mapped and visualized), but I was thousands of miles away. She did not consider my voice to be a “second” identity of me, but she could say, for example that cube's on the phone, or she's on the phone or that's her voice …. and in that the pronouns would be personal. If she lied to my voice, she would have lied to me or grieved me, etc. But when she spoke, it would be directed to me, the person she knows, not to the voice… although by voice, we commune.
What I understand is that the Apostles know that no man has seen God. He just doesn't show up to talk in person with us but communes with us nonetheless through/by his Spirit. It gives you an idea how so very high and lifted up he must be. We have no idea. In revelation, they can't even behold his face. So it stands to reason that he would have this method of fellowship with us and it makes sense because that is the general attitude that is reflected by the persons in the Bible.
“Cast me not from thy presence, take not thy spirit from me…” Uphold me with thy right hand, and the like. It clearly points to a person and individual, but it is the Person of the Father.Hope it lines up with scripture for you.
Romans 8:9 – But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1 Peter 1:11 – Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Also:
1 Cor. 2: 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Yes FYI,
It is beautiful is it not? The Holy Spirit of God poured out by God into the Son of God and then into us so that we are one in the Son and with him in his Father God.Quote (Guest @ June 20 2005,18:02) the glory, as of the only begotten of the Father; a glory becoming him, suitable to him as such; the very real glory of the Son of God; for the “as”, here, is not a note of similitude, but of certainty, as in (Matthew 14:5) (Psalms 2:8) and the word is here called, “the only begotten of the Father”; which cannot be said of Christ, as man; for as such, he was not “begotten” at all: nor on the account of his resurrection from the dead; for so he could not be called the “only begotten”, since there are others that have been, and millions that will be raised from the dead, besides him: nor by reason of adoption; for if adopted, then not begotten; these two are inconsistent; besides, he could not be called the only begotten, in this sense, because there are many adopted sons, even all the elect of God: nor by virtue of his office, as magistrates are called the sons of God; for then he would be so only in a figurative and metaphorical sense, and not properly; whereas he is called God's own Son, the Son of the same nature with him; and, as here, the only begotten of the Father, begotten by him in the same nature, in a way inconceivable and inexpressible by us:
Yes FYI,
He is not the only Son.
The word “mmonogenes” or “only begotten” is one word and does not relate to the other fact that he is also the ONLY “only begotten Son”If Christ was standing before a Disciple, would it be acceptable for that Disciple to bow before Jesus, and say to Him, “My Lord and My God” ?
“If Christ was standing before a Disciple, would it be acceptable for that Disciple to bow before Jesus, and say to Him, “My Lord and My God” ?”
Yes Berean2005. I am a bond-servant of Christ. He is my Lord and God.
I will most certainly kneel and proclaim Christ is MY LORD & GOD with a hallelujah!
Just like the people when Christ entered Jerusalem.
Will you Nick?
All who will follow Thomas' example say AMEN:
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
I say Amen!
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