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This is interesting in that the verse DOES NOT claim that [Jesus] had glory WHEN the world was… only BEFORE. Yet another scripture claim [Jesus] CREATED the world and all things within… and then another STATES that it was the FATHER who created everything ‘through’ the Son. Well, if [Jesus] only had glory BEFORE the world was, the question is then: ‘What GLORY did he have AS THE WORLD WAS MADE – more glory, but likely, following the logic, LESS OR NONE’? Quite a flaw in trinity ideology, eh?
Yes, the Trinity is a flawed doctrine for sure. The Father created all things through his son. God created all things through the Word. Nothing was created without him. Glory to God through Jesus Christ now and forever and including all the past. You agree right?
Yet some think a man was in heaven prior to his birth?
Strange isn’t it Nick. I wonder why people might think that he had glory with God even before the Cosmos.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Nick, maybe you could write a Bible and delete these scriptures and many others. Then we will have a true Bible right?
t8, I agree only that the Father created all things.
Jesus was not existent in heaven when the world was created so it cannot be that God Created all things THROUGH Jesus.
In fact, rendering the text as ‘God Created through Jesus’, is complete nonsense if Jesus IS GOD!
Saying, ‘The Father Created all things through the son’ Is also nonsense since ALL THREE ‘gods’ Are EQUAL. Here, the Son is SUBORDINATED and receives power from the father. This cannot be if Jesus IS GOD.
Tje REAL PROBLEM is that the trinity was not designed to be scrutinise. It was just designed to be believed BY THREAT of eternal condemnation and death (as it says in the Athanasian creed – which is LATER modified creed from the origins al as HUGE discrepancies were found in the now virtually defunct Apostles Creed!)
t8, all the things you wrote to Nick concerning the ‘Man’ in heaven before the world was, INCLUDE FAKED text.
It is clear that these have been ADDED as they do not follow the theme of the verse.
The trinity translators added in verses to include Jesus where it might declare Father as the sole doer. The things written were done after Jesus rose from the dead and was taken up to heaven but trinity obeyers will see, ‘Jesus in Glory’ as being so ALWAYS BEFORE and forever by ignoring the PRESENT CONTEXT of the verses.
If Jesus is God, Why was he given glory and REWARDED with the spiritually ‘earthly’ throne of king David… is GOD not KING OF THE GREATER HEAVEN – why would becoming ‘King of Earth’ be a REWARD for dying when he already was KING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH?
Trinitarians have become adept at responding with ridiculous answers when the truth is put to them… therefore the truth means nothing to them. Any silly answer is an answer so as long they reply to a question that makes their belief credible in their and their brightens eyes. It also allows them to go away and devise responses that modify their defences in favour of trinity support. Nowadays, Phil 2 is not ‘Jesus emptied himself’ as the verse SAYS, but ‘Jesus dis-availed himself of glory to be God. He stopped using his power as God and humbled himself’ which the verse DOESNT SAY. They say this because they realise that he they can use the verse where Jesus askes the Father to give him [….] the glory… they add ‘BACK’ to make it seem he HAD IT but lost it… er, dis-availed himself of it!
Hi T8,
You believe a man was in heaven prior to his birth?
If so this man was not a man as we know them.
He was conceived in Mary on the earth.
So if he was a man before that he had no mother.
He had no flesh and no inheritance from Adam or David.
You confuse flesh with Spirit.
Jael,….. AMEN, AMEN and AMEN, So good to hear your voice here brother, I WISH and PRAY SO MUCH T8, COULD COME TO UNDERSTAND THIS. This site then would truly become a hugh heaven net, drawing all kinds of people into it, of all faiths and then be pulled into shore and the angels will sort through all caught into the HEAVEN net. I really don’t think it will move much until T8 gets it right. Pray for him all you brothers and sisters,
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Read the truth and weep.
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.
And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
More weeping and gnashing?
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, asking, “Where is the One who has been born King of the Jews? We saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.”
More frustration. Truth does that to people who do not align with it. They come up with all manner of excuses. Let’s hear them.
And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.
What does the antimessiah spirit have to say? I know. He was not the Christ is what I expect to hear from that spirit. Let’s see who speaks this confession.
The trinity is a false doctrine that all true Christians keep well clear of as an ideology.
Jesus was not a pre-existent being that ‘Came in the flesh’ (as in, was a Spirit Being and then changed to put on flesh!).
What ‘Came in the flesh’ was ‘The Word of God’…. Jehovah’s very Word that he would send a saviour (Isaiah 42:1), came to fruition / came true / came into being (all ‘being’ is FLESH).
Scriptures prophesies that this Saviour would be on chosen from among the Jews, and those same Jews knew the time was close for his coming. The very fact that two of the closest believers gave their life to well beyond normal age in belief that they wouldn’t die before the Saviour came showed that the time was close.
Jesus was not Almighty God. He was God’s representative. God TAUGHT HIM from childhood … Jesus did NOTHING as a child nor adolescent except obey his parents and the law… he showed PERFECT righteousness to man and his God… he HAD NO POWER to do anything even as he knew it was his future to be mighty in Spirit.
Mary knew he would be great also and tried to push him into doing things – she got frustrated and confused as to why he didn’t perform great deeds – Jesus had to be firm with her so he wasn’t TEMPTED to ‘taste the forbidden fruit of power before his time’.
When the time was right, Jesus was ….SENT INTO THE WORLD… First, baptised as a sign – the Holy Spirit ANOINTING him (SETTING HIM ASIDE FOR PRIESTHOOD OR/AND KINGSHIP) as THE CHRIST (‘the anointed one’)
Was Jesus ‘THE CHRIST’ before he was ‘ANOINTED’… No! But was DESTINED to be so!!
Was Jesus ‘THE SAVIOUR’ before died on the cross? No! But he knew that if he passed the temptation tests that he was DESTINRD to be so!!
A prophecy is not a fact until it is fulfilled…
Nick doesn’t believe that Jesus was born the Christ, the saviour, nor the Lord even though it is written and also declared by an angel.
Jael…good to hear from you, your exactly brother, but T8, doesn’t get it. He thinks prophesy is fulfilled when spoken. So he places Jesus as a preexisting being, instead of a prophecied human being that was to come into existence as a ordinary human being, and latter to become the anointed and perfected human one of God, in so doing he, without understanding why, moves Jesus’ idenity away from his actual human roots, through the loins of king David, and his “exact” idenity with us.
Jael go read some of what JODI has written here, it will delight you brother.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Gene, yes… Jesus was prophesied to be the son of God. Prophesy is ‘of the future’, just as the Apostle wrote: ‘We were told that man would be theruler over all things but as yet we have not seen that occur’ (paraphrased). And has Jesus taken his seat on the spiritual throne of his forefather, king David? And has Death been subdued and destroyed?
– Three, as yet, unfulfilled prophesies!
Going back… Think that Adam could do all things that Jesus did if he had remained sinless… but to some generation of his offspring. That is, msn would sin at some stage in his generations… it need not have been Adam. If Adam had not sinned then he himself would be that Son of God (Luke 3:38) who might have been the sacrificial lamb.
Remember that God was extremely angry with Adam for sinning. God certainly did not expect that Adam would be the one to sin. What! Not even one generation of mankind can endure?
You, I, t8, and all other believing Christians know that God was holding out on destroying mankind in the hope that even ONE PERSON of mankind would live a life in accordance with his laws. How many generations from Adam (Or rather, Abraham!!) to days of Jesus? Not one was found – not even David nor Solomon. The Jews knew that a Saviour was coming… absolutely! But they thought wrong on what that Saviour was meant to do. They desired a warrior Saviour to save them from the Romans just as they were saved from enslavement, persecution, and death, in the past.
They most certainly did not believe that Almighty God himself was going to come… That does not fulfil a prophecy. The Saviour was a HUMAN from mankind. [A] God wrapped in human flesh cannot be a sacrifice.
More to say… but if I were to write it here there would it be enough space to hold the writing!!
Jael….please go to the truth or tridition poat and read what Jodi has written and how clearley she explains things brother.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Jael…yes God the Father ,who is spirit, was “IN” Jesus reconciling the world unto himself. THE SPIRIT OF God which was the word of God also m was given Jesus at his baptizm, by John the baptist at the at t h e Jordan River, and the spirit decended on Jesus, that is when he began to preach the kingdom of God after he was tested first. That is when the body of Jesus became the temple of God, just as with us also. Jesus became a spritual son of God at that time, just as we do upon baptizm and recieving of the Spirit of GOD the Father.
All thing are the same, as it was with Jesus, so it is with us, rather for life or death we are the LORDS.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
So you teach that Jesus is not the Christ because he is a mere man and the Spirit or Anointing is God. What you teach is Jesus Christ is the Christ and Jesus is not.
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
Hi T8,
Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God.
Jesus, the messiah, has come in the flesh.
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
What do you not understand?
Please try to understand:
- ’The Word of God’ is not a person. Almighty God made a promise that he would send a Saviour. In the fullness of time Almighty God FULFILLED that promise.
- To ‘Come in the Flesh / Become flesh’ is not about a person – it is about a promise being FULFILLED. That promise was OF a person, a Saviour: The SERVANT of Almighty God (Psalm 42:1)
————————
- A ‘Son of God’ is ANYONE who fully carries out the works of Almighty God: The Father. Since the man, Jesus Christ, is THE ONLY PERSON who fully and continuously carried out the works of Almighty God, he, and only he, can be considered as a HUMAN SON OF GOD. Most scholars EXCLUDE Adam as a once Son of God (Luke 3:38) because they do not want to overshadow or equivafy Adam with Jesus Christ. This is WRONGFUL thinking. Adam was the FIRST human Son of God – BUT he fell away to Sin. Study the Scriptures and you will find repeated analogies: The FIRST SON always SINS and a SECOND is brought up in POSITION to replace that first… check out the children of the patriarchs: Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob…David, Solomon… Scriptures tells it is the SAME with Adam and Jesus: ‘Jesus Christ – the Second / Last ADAM’. But remembering that ‘Adam’ means ‘Man’ and in this case, ‘Holy and Sinless MAN’, it is quite appropriate that Jesus should be seen as ‘The LAST ADAM’. And, scriptural, that he is seen as ‘The ONLY (human) Son of God. Now, of course, it will be interjected: ‘Spirit Angels are Sons of God’… Well, you well know that Spirit ‘Angels’ are not made in the image of God… that there is no salvation for a Spirit Angel that sins.
- ‘Begotten’: Trinitarians claim that the Son was ‘Born from eternity’ and this should mean ‘Never Born’… I won’t say anything here as ‘disingenuous’ is far too weak a word to describe such utter nonsense! Following the theme in the previous bullet point; The Son closest in love and confidence to the Father is the ‘begotten one’. Normally this is THE FIRST BORN (chronologically) Son. Naturally then, if the first born Son sins and is dismissed, the one brought up in his place is now the ‘FIRSTBORN’ (Note the non-space between the words, meaning ‘Not Chronological but Spiritually’, ‘Most Loved’. Obviously until that first son sins, he is BOTH First Born AND Firstborn). Begotten, is used to ascribe a person ‘Born to’ a Father or Adopted /‘Brought UP in position of love, closeness’ to another. Thus Paul ‘begat’ Onesemus …Onesemus was a runaway slave adopted by Paul, who was in prison at the time. It certainly did not mean that Paul birthed him by sexual intamacy with a woman. Paul had many disciples (understudies) but Onesemus was the ‘most loved’, the one who was most fervent in his ‘doing the works of his master, Paul’. Onesemus was a ‘True Son’ of Paul.
T8….We are saying Jesus is the christ (an anointed human being) but you say he was already the christ (anointed one) before his existence on this earth. If he was already ANOINTED at berth then why another baptizm later by John the baptist at the Jordan river?, that is when the spirit of God decended on him as a dove, none of that happened before his baptizm, no testing, no mircles, not sent out into the world to preach the gospel, until after his ANOINTING TOOK PLACE.
YOU are the one denying his baptizm and anointing, at the GORDAN BY JOHN THE BAPTIST, NOT US. Even though scripture clearly show it, Yes it is you who deny the anointing process that took place, not us. We are in agreement with scripture, you aren’t.
Who is denying Jesus came into his prophesied “existence” from the loins of king David, just as we do “in the flesh” , is that not you, because you are saying he aready existed as another being of somekind, were not the one saying that, we totaly believe he came as a flesh and blood human being, who had to be anointed by GOD, TO BE THE MESSAIH (A HUMAN SAVIOR) . But you on the other hand believe, he was “morphed” from another existence, that you have no proof of at all.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
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