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@Rodel David
Welcome to HN. You ask a very important question. Deuteronomy 10:17 says this:
For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
Let me break this down for you:
Jehovah = God of gods + Lord of lords
Now look at what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:6:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Now let’s see who the disciple John reveals as the Lord of lords:
“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Therefore, Jehovah = the Father (the God of gods) + the Son (the Lord of lords)
There are two persons as Jehovah and they are one. Jesus says in John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
As you have discovered, it seems that two distinct Jehovah’s are mentioned in the OT in various passages. In the fullest sense of the position, they make up our one God. They are both individually referred to as God or Lord at times, and sometimes they are both, together as God or Lord. Context and a right understanding of who Jehovah is will bring light to scriptures as the Holy Spirit guides your search.
We can be one with them but not one as them.
I hope that helps!
God bless, LightenUp (LU)
@t8
If God we’re your Father, you would not deny that His Son was Jehovah as the Lord of Lords, imo.
The Father and Son are one as Jehovah, in the fullest sense. Believers are not one AS Jehovah…believers are one IN Jehovah, in Jehovah’s name, as the church body.
LU
No, for us, there is one God the Father. I know you are not ‘us’ that is obvious. You have this other doctrine that I have never heard anyone else believe. I have yet to meet one person who agrees with you. But you can go through life as another that is not ‘us’. It is your life, do with it as you will.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
@t8
It seems to me that the difference between you and me is this:
For you, you have one God and Lord, the Father, and a lessor lord, Jesus Christ.
For me, I have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ.
I believe that I am in line with Christians worldwide as well as Paul who wrote the verse you quote:
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
I do believe that mainstream Christians worldwide believe that Jesus is Jehovah and also the Father is Jehovah and they are two persons together as one God with their Holy Spirit. A simple google search should show you that. I am far from alone on my understanding.
LU, you have taught that both the Father and the Son make up this one God. That is incorrect. There is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And yes, the Father is greater than the son. And God greater than the Lord.
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Nowhere do you read that the Lord made the Father God do you. The son is of God and God is the Most High.
Denying the truth that the Father is the true God and Jesus his son is denying one of the most important of truths. And people who teach others to break the commandments at best are least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
@t8
Please tell me which way you understand the sonship of Jesus before He became a man:
- He was the same type of being as his father. For example, Joseph was the same type of being as his father, Jacob.
- He was a different type of being than his father. For example, an angel is a different type of being than the Father.
- Other, please explain.
LU, it doesn’t make any difference what I believe regarding your doctrine. Your view that both the Father and Son are both the Most High God is not true. This is what you believe right?
@t8
Once again:
Please tell me which way you understand the sonship of Jesus before He became a man:
He was the same type of being as his father. For example, Joseph was the same type of being as his father, Jacob.
He was a different type of being than his father. For example, an angel is a different type of being than the Father.
Other, please explain.
What is your view, #1, #2, or #3. If #3, please explain. This is important to me to help me understand if we have the same view on this or not.
Please answer the question, t8.
@t8
Please answer the above post with one of the three choices. It is not about my doctrine. It is about your view. I don’t want to have to guess. So, just give us your view.
LU,
The Father is SPIRIT.
The Angels are SPIRITS.
Jesus is HUMAN.
Jesus is called ‘Son of God’ and is also ‘Son of the Father’.
God and Father (different TITLES of the most Holy One) DOES NOT PROCREATE.
He only CREATES.
Therefore, ‘Son’ does not mean an offspring of his Spirit person.
It means ‘Someone who DOES EXACTLY what the God and Father directs him to do’.
No one of humanity except Jesus did ‘exactly’ what Yahweh taught and directed him to do: no, not Adam, not Abraham, not EVEN Moses, not David, not EVEN Solomon, even the holy prophets failed to follow god’s direction at some point. Thus they all failed to be perfect in God. The scriptures says, ‘No, not one!’
For the reason they failed, they were human sons of the first human, Adam, and therefore were born in sin through him, yes, for this reason God saw that ‘no one with sin – no, not one!’ could fulfil the role of ‘Christ’ (please, this just means ‘Saviour’. It’s not EXPLICIT to ‘Jesus’. It could well have been ‘Abraham Christ, or Moses Christ, or David Christ’, if they and each had not sinned!!!)
God saw that A MAN WITHOUT SIN would be required. So he went back to basics and CREATED A MAN IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE FIRST MAN: a SECOND ADAM.
Can you see that this was a necessary act. One, the first, imbibed sin and corruption in mankind…a perfect EQUIVALENT second would be required to SAVE mankind.
It is RIDICULOUS to say that God ‘sent HIMSELF’ as a man to save mankind especially as GOD REQUIRED the ‘Blood of death for the blood of sin’ as a sacrifice FROM MAN. (Read the scriptures and see what the purpose of the sacrifice was for and how it was to be achieved) How in heavens could GOD BE THAT SACRIFICIAL LAMB even IF he were to ..,umm.., disguise himself …as a human being.
Lu, WHO would GOD be pleasing if HE HIMSELF ‘DIED’ for his own creation? Not even a human King DIES to save his people… It is unheard of even as a human concept, let alone for an ALMIGHTY GOD!
Jesus is A HUMAN BEING who exemplified the SPIRIT OF GOD. And as such, ALMIGHTY GOD says of him, ‘This is my SON, in whom I am well pleased!’.
Lu, if Jesus were GOD, how would ‘FATHER GOD’ have to be PLEASED with SON GOD if ANYTHING/ONE who IS GOD is by plain reason, PERFECT?
Lu, moreover, if Jesus were ALREADY GOD as (incredibly impossible) SPIRIT PROCREATION of God, why would Father God say to him: ‘THIS DAY YOU HAVE …become… a son to me, and I a Father to you’.
Lu, when did God say this to Jesus? It was necessarily AFTER CREATION so Jesus BECOMING ‘SON OF GOD’ was within creation.
And would have to be AFTER Jesus was BORN.
It would have to after Jesus PROVED HIMSELF TO BE WORTHY. And, Lu, when but after his wilderness temptation under great stress (he was starved and in a weak and vulnerable state…easy prey to use the power of the Holy Spirit that had been put on him… easy to feed himself with rocks turned to bread, easy to give in to the easy way to power by simply bowing to Satan, easy to show of ‘floating to the ground’ in front of the watching Jews.)
Lu, the point of temptation is that the temptee should gain something without the proper means. If as YOU SAY, Jesus was already GOD, what gain by any, let alone underhanded means could be a temptation?
Please go here to ask me your questions so that I’m not being asked about the same topics in more than one thread.
Creating your own doctrine and trying to defend it against the truth of scriptures is a hopeless cause.
Where does any scripture suggest that Almighty God ‘incubated’ another God in himself and then gave birth to him?
Lu, has anyone so far agreed with anything of your personal doctrine?
Jesus was born a man in the manner of Adam. That means he was SINLESS and HOLY. This is what the scriptures we believe and study states. Bringing a self created doctrine has no place in a discussion on the truth or otherwise of the belief of what we call ‘Christian’ scriptures.
I am answering your questions one at a time here: https://heavennet.net/forums/topic/lightenupjael-discussion/#post-818593
Jael,
“Creating your own doctrine and trying to defend it against the truth of scriptures is a hopeless cause.” So why do you do this? Christians throughout Christian history,or at least since the Christian scriptures were collected have been debating this very issue. Do you know nothing of what the Council of Nicea was about? Arians and Athanasians alike agreed Jesus preexisted, and they all called him God;the debate was whether Jesus was the eternal Son-always existed like the Father or a created son and even that before the creation of the world. So LU didn’t create the doctrine and to say it has no place in the discussion of Christian scripture is ludicrous.
“Lu, has anyone so far agreed with anything of your personal doctrine?” I would say the majority of Christians now and throughout Christian history would agree with her much more than you.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Is this not a Christian scripture?
Thank you for your post and support. I agree, I am not declaring anything new. The early church fathers used terms like ‘offspring’ and ‘begotten God’ regarding Jesus/Yeshua and terms like ‘the unbegotten God’ in regards to the Father. That was before the Council of Nicea.
Creating your own doctrine and trying to defend it against the truth of scriptures is a hopeless cause.
Where does any scripture suggest that Almighty God ‘incubated’ another God in himself and then gave birth to him?
Lu, has anyone so far agreed with anything of your personal doctrine?
It does boggle the mind as to why so many feel the need to do such things rather than accept the revelation of scripture. We are clearly told who Jesus is, but many who think they are wise feel they need to go beyond scripture.
Thank you for your post and support. I agree, I am not declaring anything new. The early church fathers used terms like ‘offspring’ and ‘begotten God’ regarding Jesus/Yeshua and terms like ‘the unbegotten God’ in regards to the Father. That was before the Council of Nicea.
These writings clearly define Jesus as the first work of the Father as the Word that was with him. If scripture calls men ‘theos’ and they are humans, then yes Jesus is so much more as he is the only begotten.
There is no excuse for using such to mean that Jesus is also a God, or member of God, or God himself. If you made that case, you would have to include men who are called ‘theos’ as well.
@t8 you said:
These writings clearly define Jesus as the first work of the Father as the Word that was with him.
What writings are you referring to specifically?
@t8
you said: If scripture calls men ‘theos’ and they are humans, then yes Jesus is so much more as he is the only begotten.
At least you can see that Jesus is much more since he is the only begotten. In fact, Peter shows us that He is called YHVH of Hosts by YHVH. Isn’t YHVH of Hosts your God or just YHVH?
LU, I would challenge you to show where scriptures Peter shows that Jesus is called YHWH of hosts by YHWH…
((P.s. ‘Yhwh’ is the PERSONAL NAME of Almighty God of the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, and Christians. Jesus’ personal name …is …. ‘Jesus’ (English spelling).
The TITLE ‘God’ (or THEOS as you put it) is EXACTLY THAT: A TITLE. It means various things surrounding ‘Greatest, mightiest, heroic, noble magnificent, top dog (no pun intended), holiest, …’. Therefore ANYONE within ANY CONTEXT can be ‘GOD / THEOS of that context’.
Jesus Christ himself reminds the Jews that their ALMIGHTY GOD, his Father,YHWH HIMSELF, called MIGHTY men of REKNOWN who received the word of YHWH, ‘GODS’/’THEOS(s)’.
Now I know that the revelation of truth rarely alters the false ideas of the diehard but a few do come to a realisation… Can that be you, in this instance!?
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