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In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. We know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.
Same old worn out argument. You are confused. Those in the boat committed idolatry according to the Decalogue if Jesus was not God.
Will you ever be able to come up with a slam dunk argument?
“Trinitarians are confused. Worship alone does not make something God.”
This is a true statement. You have been slam-dunked more times than I can remember. But to see your defeat requires eyes to see and humility to accept truth over your own ego.
Jesus was worshipped as the son of God while here on Earth. But what about in Heaven with a Jesus in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos? Well let scripture show you the answer:
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him.
Notice that there are two. One is God and the other is not called that God but the Lamb right? Now notice how he is worshipped in Heaven, not as God, but as the Lamb of God. right? These are scriptures KJ, not my opinions right?.
In a loud voice they said: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever.”
Notice the ‘and to the Lamb’ part. The word ‘AND’ in English has a specific meaning of which you understand. It means something like ‘in addition to’. ‘And God’ would mean something like ‘in addition to God’ or ‘as well as God’.
Move onto the next point please. You have been successfully refuted.
Jesus is clearly identified as the only begotten Son of God. It is a reasonable argument to say that Jesus, before he came in the flesh and even before creation, was begotten as the same type of being as the one who begat him.
Correct. And we too can be begotten of God. But we are not YHWH just as Jesus isn’t. We are his sons and Jesus is the prototype son in whom we will be like. He is the image of the invisible God.
Christians recognize that YHVH is both Father and Son-two entities.
Indoctrinated ones indeed might believe that. But we have the scriptures, so there is no excuse if we read.
We agree that we bow our knee to Jesus and call Him Lord to the glory of God his Father.
So we will bow our knee and call him Lord to the glory of God the son too?
Not God the Son, but the son of God.
The Antichrist spirit denies he is the son of God whether that be blatantly like Muslims or subtly like those who teach the Trinity Doctrine.
One says he is but a prophet, while others say he is God. Both are wrong. He is both the son of the living God and the messiah sent by God.
t8
I agree with Paul who tells us our God and our Lord are two entities, Father and Son. 1 Cor 8:6
Unless you believe that YHVH is not both God and Lord, then you will too come to understand that the Father and the Son are both YHVH in unity.
Jesus is the only son ontologically. We will never be. We are adopted. It is like saying that Jesus is adopted like us but that is NOT what the gospel teaches. We are adopted, He is not. He is the true offspring and always was. We become sons, He always was a son. Seems so simple to me. No need for knowing any doctrine to understand the difference between a natural son and an adopted son. Humans have NO chance of becoming natural sons like Jesus. He has always been perfect. We blew it from the beginning. WE CAN NEVER SAY THAT WE WERE ALWAYS PERFECT, CAN WE? JESUS CAN.
You sound confused with the word Lord and the word YHWH which for a certain reason was translated as LORD.
But to clear this up for you, it was God that made Jesus, Lord, not LORD/YHWH. And even if it were true that he made him YHWH, then would that not be strange that he was made YHWH? God is not made in case you didn’t know.
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
But even Paul concurs of whom you claim to agree with. Yet in reality you do not agree with him do you?
So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist…
Oh, to the supporter of ‘beget’ doesn’t mean ‘beget’…To the implier that beget implies something already existing:
Were Cain and Abel already existing when Adam begat them?
For sure, there is a meaning of begat that implies ‘brought to relational prominence’ as the scriptures states: ‘Paul begat Oncesimus while in chains in prison’.
Evidentially this begetting is an adoption by Paul, of the Slave, Oncesimus.
Now, we know Almighty God spoke a relational begetting statement concerning Jesus Christ:
‘Today, I have become to you a Father, and you have become to me, a Son.’
Scriptures states that God spoke these words to Jesus Christ, alone. Therefore it is clear that Jesus Christ is the ONLY son of whom was ever begotten by God.
Does this mean that God has ONE SON ONLY…
Or is it correct to say that God has ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON?
Can responders please address replies that include the facts of the Apostles, and all who subject themselves to the power of the Holy Spirit, as ALSO being ‘Sons, begotten of God’:
All who do the works of God are Sons (children) of God.
Trinity Fallacy attempts to place the adoption of Jesus Christ in the ETERNAL PAST…. They claim VARIOUSLY that:
1) ‘Jesus Christ’ was ‘BORN’ before time (yet … say he was GOD and therefore is NOT A CREATION, yet … is ‘The FIRSTBORN Of/Over creation’!)
2) ‘Jesus Christ’ was ‘NEVER BORN’ but is ‘ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN’ (but can never show any evidence from scriptures. Also this is a contradiction of statement 1) above)
3) They absolutely DISMISS the adoption statement by almighty God (No need to wonder why?)
4) They deny the terms ‘Sons of God’ and ‘Children of God’ claiming these are ‘human adoptions’… No scriptures makes any such claims.
5) Jesus begs the Father that the apostles should be ONE with him in the Father as he is one with the father. Trinitarians claim that this ‘one with the father’ means absolutely that Jesus IS GOD… However the ‘[apostles] being ONE WITH GOD AND JESUS absolutely DOES NOT MEAN that the apostles are (BOTH) GOD and Jesus!! How can anyone follow such desperate and turgid illogical ideology?
Jesus is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD because he is THE ONLY ONE who fully carried out the works of Almighty God, the Father:
‘Father, I have completed the task you sent me to do… Now glorify me with the glory you held for me from before the world was’
This ‘glory’ was a promise to WHOMEVER was that FIRST SON, who did what Jesus did. ADAM FAILED and was REPLACED BY JESUS.
People, do you read scriptures: ‘For he (God) taketh away FROM THE FIRST and giveth unto another (a Second)’
People, do you KNOW YOUR SCRIPTURES:
1) Cain was first but sinned and REPLACED by Seth
2) Ishmael was first but was REPLACED by Isaac
3) Esau was FIRST but sinned and was REPLACED by Jacob
4) Jesse’s first son sinned and was replaced as BEGOTTEN (first) by David.
5) What about Joseph… Eldest son sinned…
6) David’s first and eldest son…
7) ADAM was first HUMAN SON of God….. Who REPLACED ADAM…? (Interestingly, WHY do trinitarians DENY that Adam was SON OF GOD before he fell to sin?)
7) how many more? ‘SATAN’ was god’s highest angelic son…. Anything more need to be said?
The FIRST SON need not be ‘human’ AND the Son BEGOTTEN (replacing the eldest by ORDER OF CLOSEST TO GOD; in the bosom of God) need not be the second not the last son BUT HIM who satisfies the pleasure of the Father; does and completes the works of the Father.
Jael….That is not the way i see it, i believe there is ONLY “ONE” TRUE GOD, all others are false God’s, and those who believe in them are IDOLATAR’S.
peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Add: Angels, SPIRITUAL sons OF GOD, were never destined to ETERNAL positions of power and authority over the human sons made in the image of God. NO ANGEL or heavenly being is MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD.
Angels are ONLY SPIRITUAL HELPERS OF GOD… ‘For God has certainly not pre-destined the world to come to be in subjection to the Angels’
you asked:
Oh, to the supporter of ‘beget’ doesn’t mean ‘beget’…To the implier that beget implies something already existing:
Were Cain and Abel already existing when Adam begat them?
Beget does mean beget. Adam took part in the conception of Cain and Able. Before that conception, they did not exist. From the moment of conception, they existed and they existed for about 8-9 more months before they could be begotten by Adam through Eve.
Btw, all your examples show that the person existed before they were begotten no matter if the word is figurative or literal.
Jesus is the only begotten son of God…a major gospel truth, Jael. He didn’t replace some other previous son, He didn’t become a son…He always was a son, a son of the same type as His Father and the only son at that. He was most certainly not adopted!
Jael,
All other sons were not begotten, they were created, they are not the same type as the Father , just one son is…Jesus.
@t8
Not confused. LORD is a name that is used for the name YHVH, and that LORD is God of gods and Lord of lords. We have one Lord of lords and that is Jesus, we have one God of gods and that is the Father. YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords, two entities in unity…a father and a son.
Jesus always was YHVH with the Father, and that Father made Him “Lord” when He made all things through the Son and for the Son. He was also made Lord as the Son of David.
Most of what you say is unsubstantiated. I do not take you seriously that is the truth.
God made this Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Your doctrine is not compatible.
You like many others have created God in an image of your own understanding.
However, you should receive the light as it would show up the darkness of ignorance and arrogance. Then you would see that the one true God sent his son, the same one he made Lord.
Your doctrine of the Binity like the Trinity and Islam denies Jesus as the son of God. You say he is God instead of his son while Islam says he is prophet, but not the son.
The Antichrist spirit is at work in this world. It will show itself in its denial of Jesus as the son of God and Lord. It is easy to detect as those under that spirit will tell you one way or another that Jesus is not the prototype son of God.
t8,
Rolling my eyes here…It is obvious by your statement of what you think I believe, that you do not take me seriously if you think that I teach that Jesus is God the Father. I have never taught that. You do not understand the term ‘unity.’
For some reason you cannot seem to grasp the idea of an eternal father having within him an offspring ready to be begotten from him and then at one point, actually begotten from him.
You say that what I say is “unsubstantiated” yet I have given you loads of scripture over the years. Our understandings of those scriptures are different at times. For example, In John 1:1 we learn that in the beginning, God was with God. You turn that into something like God was with godliness. Those two ideas are worlds apart. In John 1:18 we learn that no one has seen the invisible God except the only begotten God.
There you go…two who are God and one of them was begotten and calls the other his father. Jesus said they are one which must mean unity.
Kathi,
Good response to t8 though I do not fully agree. You have two problems.
- If the Father of Jesus is a father to him in the sense you say, then the Father MUST also have a father. Who would that be Kathi?
- David was “begotten” by the Father. It says, “This day I have begotten you.” David was not the Father’s offspring “within” him. And Jonah was “begotten” by the great fish when the fish vomited him out. Jonah was not the fish’s offspring.
Jack 🙂
Hi LU,
You said something about Jesus being always perfect.
What does Hebrews 5: 8-9 say?
How does ‘AFTER…learning obedience …and being made perfect’ imply ‘was always perfect’?
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