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T8…..While God can’t be tempted by evil, he can be tempted by foolishness according to JESUS’ response to Satan, “you shall not tempt the LORD your God”. So while evil itself can not , perhaps other things can.
peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
You’re right, T8. Ignoring hi9m is the way to go. Meanwhile, his posts do encourage me to practice up on being witty. For me, online forums are very good places to practice up on your communication skills.
Yes it is true that there is a benefit to all things if we are in Christ. Jesus put up with all kinds of people and it is said that even he learned obedience from what he suffered. We are here to be tested and Nick is a special kind of test.
Hi, t8,
If you follow along with the substance metaphysics of the fathers, then God is viewed as a wholly simple being, meaning no parts, no internal complexity, all alike inside. This is the arithmetic concept of unity, divine or otherwise. And yes, that certainly would mean the if the Father is God, then the Son is automatically ruled out of the picture, and so, too, the Spirit. However, I follow an organic sense of unity or oneness. Each entity is a complex synthesis of parts. So no problem with all three being God.
Your pit about Adam and Eve is interesting. In terms of substance metaphysics, they are wholly separate beings. However, as I said, I reject substance metaoysics and view reality relationally. Each entity is always part of all the others. You really can’t tell where one thing ends and the other begins. All things flow into one another. So, in a very real sense Eve is definitely part of Adam, present in the real internal constitution of Adam and vice versa.
You say you follow an organic sense of unity or oneness with each entity is a complex synthesis of parts. I follow Jesus Christ primarily and the Apostles too. So scripture is how I learn about God. While I can know God personally through his spirit communing with my spirit, , I can get to know about his nature and character from scripture. Scripture is clear about who God is and who is son is. It is simple so all can grasp it. Eternal life is to know the only true God (the Father) and also the one who HE sent.
God has a nature yes, but God is a Father. While I could make the argument that I have a friend who is mad of flesh, that wouldn’t prove that I know him. Because to know him is to know the person himself.
God has a son called Jesus Christ. God made him both Lord and Christ. God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. These are straight out of scripture. They are not hard. Of course they can be an offense to men who consider themselves wise. Even some Christian scholars who have diverted toward Greek concepts and philosophical ideas feel embarrassed at the simplicity found in Christ. But that is the great thing about God. He makes all things that we need simple to grasp and humility is an important characteristic for any child of God. God will reveal more to humble and innocent people then to men who think they can work God our using their own spirit.
When men diverted away from the one true God, they devised gods with their hands and in their vain minds they imagined God with their own spirit and forgot that only from the spirit of God can a man know about God because the spirit of God reveals God. The Trinity is one such vain teaching. It started earlier on as a Binity in fact and the Spirit was added in some 60 or so years later. The Trinity Doctrine developed in time along with other doctrines and traditions that were 100% pagan. Through Constantine the merger of the Church and the world led to a traditional Christianity that was far removed from Christ himself.
T8…..While God can’t be tempted by evil, he can be tempted by foolishness according to JESUS’ response to Satan, “you shall not tempt the LORD your God”. So while evil itself can not , perhaps other things can.
Without studying this indepth or just looking up the Greek, even if Jesus said we shouldn’t TEMPT (same word as tempt found elsewhere) God, it does not necessarily mean that God can actually be tempted, but that we should not even try to tempt him. Personally I just can’t see God thinking “ooh that is tempting, say no say no”.
Your example was in relation to Jesus doing something to prove who he was because it was written that God would act. Thus Jesus said that he wouldn’t do such a thing to force God to act to prove a point. I am not even sure that this is the same exact meaning of temptation when it comes to the flesh or the Devil. It seems to me more of a provocation.
hoghead1,
I seemed to have missed this earlier.
Hello, Kerwin,
I have no trouble with the notion that God can experience temptation. I could put no faith in a God who didn’t experience temptation. Such a God would never understand us who do feel temptations.
After the Council of Chalcedon, in 451, classical christology centered on the doctrine of the two natures of Christ. Accordingly, Christ has two separate, independent natures. There is his human nature, which can change, experience emotion, suffer, be tempted, etc. There is his divine nature, the God part, which is wholly impassible, cannot change, cannot experience emotion or suffering, etc. For my part, I reject this notion. I think it presents only an aloof, cold, indifferent Deity.
James explicitly states:
James 1:13-14Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
That presented the conundrum that the Council of Chalcedon of 451 resolved by endorsing the doctrine of two natures which though broken can be falsely justified by the misuse of certain passages.
God is of the God kind and cannot judged by our standards because he is beyond our complete understanding so he probably can understand our failing as he sent his Son. He also such understanding in other regards such as the practice of marriage. That is more deductive reasoning and not literally written. Here is what Scripture teaches us of Jesus to reveal he is not God but a human with authority above other humans.
Hebrews 4:15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
HI, Kerwin,
I don;’t think you quite get the picture about what I am speaking of, or James , for that matter.What James is talking about is being tempted to the extent you actually carry it out. What I am talking about is a bit different. An effective therapist can empathize with teh feelings of a client withy out desiring to carry them out. Same with God. If you really want to get inside Hitler, you have to become Hitler, become your enemy. Successful commanders can do just that. That, however, definitely does not mean they agree with what their enemy is about to do. Patton beat the hell out of Rommel because he had read his book, knew what Rommel would do, could think like Rommel, see the world through the eyes of Rommel, though he was not a Nazi. To now the thing is to become the thing. Actually, Rommel could empathize with us, could think the way we do, could red our minds. He said we’d invade at Normandy, not Pas de Calais. Phew! Thank God, Hitler couldn’t empathize, couldn’t emotionally identify with us. He insisted we’d invade at Pas de Calais. Had he listened to Rommel, we’d still be fighting to get into Normandy and invade Europe. More later. Best I can do right now. Just got from 12 hours straight duty on a steam locomotive, our Fourth run.
No, that isn’t at all accurate about the actual historical development of the trinity. Also, you have completely missed my b point about organic unity and connectedness. Sorry, but you actually have.
HI, t8,
I do not like talking about other members behind their back. However, since you brought up Nick. No, he is no test at all. He is simply making a pest out of himself with me. I have absolutely no time of day for that kind of nonsense.
Hi hoghead,
You have diverted from what proves itself as truth -scripture-into the fantasy world derived from the imaginations of men.
Show us trinity taught in scripture and you will not need to do this.
No, that isn’t at all accurate about the actual historical development of the trinity. Also, you have completely missed my b point about organic unity and connectedness. Sorry, but you actually have.
Hoghead. I do not have to understand anything regarding the Trinity or Binity or Krishna, Buddha, or whatever. With regards to the Trinity I have looked at and heard just about every variation of the Trinity you can imagine. Some come here preaching this Trinity or that one. But it is really a vain teaching. It has nothing to do with the doctrine of Christ whatsoever.
No one is going to sway me to the Trinity no matter what spin they put on it.
Jesus said: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
BTW, I really want eternal life, so I am not in all seriousness going to trade anything for eternal life. I cannot trade my soul for any intellectual doctrine as that would be utmost foolishness. Not even the whole world is worth that trade.
If you are not really familiar with biblical languages, then I suggest you don’t try and get into setting up some kind of argument based on the Greek text. Going online and grabbing up something quick from some online site is no way near adequate. The minute I see something like that, I know some amateur has jumped in way over his or her head.
So you are a pro then.
Did you know that God hides his wisdom from the wise of this world and reveals it to the innocent? The puffed up proud intellectuals overlook the simplicity that is in Christ. But that simplicity allows all men everywhere to understand the truth. God does not favor intellectuals.
Jesus said: “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”.
Jesus has the last word on this subject. He clearly said that the Father is the only true God. But not all hear his voice, as he said that himself.
Hoghead1,
If you are not really familiar with biblical languages, then I suggest you don’t try and get into setting up some kind of argument based on the Greek text. Going online and grabbing up something quick from some online site is no way near adequate. The minute I see something like that, I know some amateur has jumped in way over his or her head.
The scientific method is propose then test, refine, test, refine,test, refine, …, until something better comes up. If nothing better that the orthodox theory comes up then the orthodox remains dominate. According to you scientists are out of their depth. I have seen at least one case when no one orthodox theory emerged for a while though the expanding has come to eclipse the others as being the orthodox one now. The origins of life may be another one but to my limited knowledge anything to do with that is still pretty much speculation.
I was taught to use online resources though many of the better ones are obtained through paying money.
Hi, Kerwin,
Sorry, but I don’t follow that your comments about the scientific method have to do with my previous post. Also, there is nothing wrong in using online sources, provided you are very careful which ones you are using. Getting into linguistic issues is a very tricky business. You just can’t grab up something form some online source and roll with it. You really need a background in the biblical languages.
Hi, t8,
If you want o call me a pro, go ahead. I did think of doing my doctorate in biblical studies because I am good with languages, but then decided on theology. I well know that dealing with biblical languages and translations, etc., is a very complicated issue. If you are in it for a penny, you are in it for a pound. I am also well aware that many ant to abuse Scripture by turning it into an excuse to be very anti-intellectual. However, as I say, that is an abuse of Scripture and a big excuse to shut off any sort of scholarly criticism. Too many churches have as their motto: Anybody with over an eighth-grade education back of the pews. Simple religion for simple minds, I say. If you want to go that way, that’s fine by me. However, leave me out of it.
HI, t8,
I don’t doubt you have studied some material, I don’t know what, on the Trinity. However, I also do not doubt that you did not give the matter sufficient study. There are simply too many claims you make that do not fit the facts of the case.
Hello Hoghead,
You say “Anybody with over an eighth-grade education back of the pews. Simple religion for simple minds, I say. If you want to go that way, that’s fine by me. However, leave me out of it.” And yet you can’t defend the real trinitarian doctrine of Athanasius or Nicea. Instead you are a modalistic simpleton calling himself a trin.So which is easier to understand, that there is one God in three persons or three personalities in one God? You defend your position with the lame simpleton reasoning that we all talk to ourselves so we are all split personalities.So according to you God doesn’t have multiple personality disorder but rather multiple personality order. That’s quite simple,but not to many of us are our own father or own son with another one of us to boot So you have a new term you like to call “organic connectedness”,like that’s so sophisticated and maybe rocket science. Please move to the front pews of any oneness pentecostal or so called Apostolic church and speak in some tongues.
And don’t even cry that I’m calling you a heretic or attacking you personally 🙂
Hoghead1,
There is tricky aspects to linguistics but it is not rocket science. People learn foreign languages on a regular basis even difficult ones like English. Trial and error teaches a lot of things. The scientific method is essentially trial and error with error being falsification. Using it I can learn more than is actually written as long as the data is available and a way to test it. The internet supplies both.
As for Koine Greek, even experts have difficulties as testified by the difference in English language versions. Most of the translation are possible or full or partial meanings but once in a while the translators become inventive; i.e. the Koine Greek variation of soulish does not translate to physical.
It is called self taught and it has been done, with various degrees of success, for a while.
Hi hoghead,
Why would anyone choose to study theology when Heb 11.6 offers a better way?
Of course you must first believe HE exists ans cast aside the trinity nonsense.
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