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Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:13) Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 09 2008,23:36) Seriously, it is just another story to explain how two more tribes of
people came into being. the story is flawed though. Lot's daughters claimed that they
believed there was no other man alive so thay had to preserve their father's seed
in order to perpetuate the human race.What everyone forgets is that Lot and his daughters went from Sodom to a town called Zoar
while Sodom was being destroyed. They left the town of Zoar to go to the mountains and live
in a cave. Lot's daughters knew that other people were alive in Zoar.
Maybe they were just really ugly. The men in Sodom did not want them and the men in Zoar did
not want them. Only daddy would have anything to do with them, and he had to get drunk first.Tim
Greetings Tim……There realy is no explaination other than Lot had an incestrial relationship with his daugters while under the influence of strong drink….Was he aware of his act after the fact Yes…..Did he think it was wrong Yes and his reaction as a result of the shame and guilt for his transgression was one of violence….The last time I checked Lot was human and we all fall short….I don't think this passage in the OT in any way suggests that incest is permissable,however I does say clearly it is wrong…
Theo,You may be missing the part of the scripture that clearly states that Lot was “unaware” of what was going on…..
Is this false?
Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:13) Was he aware of his act after the fact Yes…..Did he think it was wrong Yes and his reaction as a result of the shame and guilt for his transgression was one of violence
Yes Theodore.
He was so ashamed after the first night that he
did the same thing the next night with his other daughter.Please tell me what the value of this story is in God's inspired book. Since God inspired it I should come away in awe after reading it.
Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 11 2008,06:16) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:13) Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 09 2008,23:36) Seriously, it is just another story to explain how two more tribes of
people came into being. the story is flawed though. Lot's daughters claimed that they
believed there was no other man alive so thay had to preserve their father's seed
in order to perpetuate the human race.What everyone forgets is that Lot and his daughters went from Sodom to a town called Zoar
while Sodom was being destroyed. They left the town of Zoar to go to the mountains and live
in a cave. Lot's daughters knew that other people were alive in Zoar.
Maybe they were just really ugly. The men in Sodom did not want them and the men in Zoar did
not want them. Only daddy would have anything to do with them, and he had to get drunk first.Tim
Greetings Tim……There realy is no explaination other than Lot had an incestrial relationship with his daugters while under the influence of strong drink….Was he aware of his act after the fact Yes…..Did he think it was wrong Yes and his reaction as a result of the shame and guilt for his transgression was one of violence….The last time I checked Lot was human and we all fall short….I don't think this passage in the OT in any way suggests that incest is permissable,however I does say clearly it is wrong…
Theo,You may be missing the part of the scripture that clearly states that Lot was “unaware” of what was going on…..
Is this false?
Greetings Mandy…..When one is under the influence of strong drink,or in our culture,drunkeness to point of black out there is no recall of the here and now until perhaps days latter or possibly never…(P.S. In days gone by Iam speaking from experience)
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 13 2008,22:57) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:13) Was he aware of his act after the fact Yes…..Did he think it was wrong Yes and his reaction as a result of the shame and guilt for his transgression was one of violence
Yes Theodore.
He was so ashamed after the first night that he
did the same thing the next night with his other daughter.Please tell me what the value of this story is in God's inspired book. Since God inspired it I should come away in awe after reading it.
Tim
Greetings Tim…..Point well taken and you have indeed sent me back to the scriptures….Standby I will attempt to answer your question ASAP…Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 14 2008,01:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 11 2008,06:16) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:13) Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 09 2008,23:36) Seriously, it is just another story to explain how two more tribes of
people came into being. the story is flawed though. Lot's daughters claimed that they
believed there was no other man alive so thay had to preserve their father's seed
in order to perpetuate the human race.What everyone forgets is that Lot and his daughters went from Sodom to a town called Zoar
while Sodom was being destroyed. They left the town of Zoar to go to the mountains and live
in a cave. Lot's daughters knew that other people were alive in Zoar.
Maybe they were just really ugly. The men in Sodom did not want them and the men in Zoar did
not want them. Only daddy would have anything to do with them, and he had to get drunk first.Tim
Greetings Tim……There realy is no explaination other than Lot had an incestrial relationship with his daugters while under the influence of strong drink….Was he aware of his act after the fact Yes…..Did he think it was wrong Yes and his reaction as a result of the shame and guilt for his transgression was one of violence….The last time I checked Lot was human and we all fall short….I don't think this passage in the OT in any way suggests that incest is permissable,however I does say clearly it is wrong…
Theo,You may be missing the part of the scripture that clearly states that Lot was “unaware” of what was going on…..
Is this false?
Greetings Mandy…..When one is under the influence of strong drink,or in our culture,drunkeness to point of black out there is no recall of the here and now until perhaps days latter or possibly never…(P.S. In days gone by Iam speaking from experience)
Forgive me for chuckling here a bit…..But brother, when you're “blacked out” I would think it would be aweful difficult to father a child? Am I wrong to assume this guys?
LOL,
MandyQuote (theodorej @ Sep. 14 2008,01:57) Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 13 2008,22:57) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:13) Was he aware of his act after the fact Yes…..Did he think it was wrong Yes and his reaction as a result of the shame and guilt for his transgression was one of violence
Yes Theodore.
He was so ashamed after the first night that he
did the same thing the next night with his other daughter.Please tell me what the value of this story is in God's inspired book. Since God inspired it I should come away in awe after reading it.
Tim
Greetings Tim…..Point well taken and you have indeed sent me back to the scriptures….Standby I will attempt to answer your question ASAP…
Yes, I am standing by as well. These are difficult questions to answer. I fear there isn't any answer. What I fear is that after much study of the written Word……I am finding that I cannot trust it completely. What a shock this is!Lot had lost all of his possessions, his dreams, his wedded daughter(s), his wife… It probably didn't take much to get him to drink to excess. His daughters with no dowry, living in a cave, must of felt it was the only way to have children. Could he perform? scriptures say he did (from long past I do know that strong drink can cloud your judgement, although difficult you can perform, then remember little or nothing). I believe this story speaks to the thoroughness of scripture it always tells the whole story as it relates, no matter what light it shines on the participants.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 14 2008,02:24) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 14 2008,01:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 11 2008,06:16) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:13) Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 09 2008,23:36) Seriously, it is just another story to explain how two more tribes of
people came into being. the story is flawed though. Lot's daughters claimed that they
believed there was no other man alive so thay had to preserve their father's seed
in order to perpetuate the human race.What everyone forgets is that Lot and his daughters went from Sodom to a town called Zoar
while Sodom was being destroyed. They left the town of Zoar to go to the mountains and live
in a cave. Lot's daughters knew that other people were alive in Zoar.
Maybe they were just really ugly. The men in Sodom did not want them and the men in Zoar did
not want them. Only daddy would have anything to do with them, and he had to get drunk first.Tim
Greetings Tim……There realy is no explaination other than Lot had an incestrial relationship with his daugters while under the influence of strong drink….Was he aware of his act after the fact Yes…..Did he think it was wrong Yes and his reaction as a result of the shame and guilt for his transgression was one of violence….The last time I checked Lot was human and we all fall short….I don't think this passage in the OT in any way suggests that incest is permissable,however I does say clearly it is wrong…
Theo,You may be missing the part of the scripture that clearly states that Lot was “unaware” of what was going on…..
Is this false?
Greetings Mandy…..When one is under the influence of strong drink,or in our culture,drunkeness to point of black out there is no recall of the here and now until perhaps days latter or possibly never…(P.S. In days gone by Iam speaking from experience)
Forgive me for chuckling here a bit…..But brother, when you're “blacked out” I would think it would be aweful difficult to father a child? Am I wrong to assume this guys?
LOL,
Mandy
Greetings Mandy……It only takes one…Many a child has been conceived during a fit of drunkeness….You may not remember as well as being barely capable….but it is possible..Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 14 2008,02:26) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 14 2008,01:57) Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 13 2008,22:57) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:13) Was he aware of his act after the fact Yes…..Did he think it was wrong Yes and his reaction as a result of the shame and guilt for his transgression was one of violence
Yes Theodore.
He was so ashamed after the first night that he
did the same thing the next night with his other daughter.Please tell me what the value of this story is in God's inspired book. Since God inspired it I should come away in awe after reading it.
Tim
Greetings Tim…..Point well taken and you have indeed sent me back to the scriptures….Standby I will attempt to answer your question ASAP…
Yes, I am standing by as well. These are difficult questions to answer. I fear there isn't any answer. What I fear is that after much study of the written Word……I am finding that I cannot trust it completely. What a shock this is!
Greetings Tim/Mandy……IMO The time element as well as the frequency in which Lot behaved in the manner he did was consistant with the behavior of a binge drinker or a drug addict for that matter….The sensors are dulled to a point where memory is challendged as well as many other faculties involved with normal functioning….When I examine this scripture and put aside the literal interpretation most readers focus on….I see a man who is behaving badly,knowing it is wrong but succumbing to the lusts of his heart….Make no mistake this behavior is abhorant,but it is forgiveable….I would think that after reading this story…We should not be in awe,but we should see that we all fall short and no matter how repulsive the sin….Gods mercy and forgiveness is always there…Quote When I read things like the story of Lot and his daughters I always think of 2 Timothy. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Ti 3:16Which one of those things is that scripture profitibale for?
Hi Tim.
The moabites and ammonites had to come from somewhere. And now we know how they're related to Israel.
The fact that it's not a pretty story only shows the Bible's candor, in its not sparing the truth when relating events involving Bible personages for our enlightenment. (It helps us to trust the Bible)
Also, God’s Word strongly condemns drunkenness. Of course, this account doesn't show him to be a drunkard, but does illustrate the effects of alcohol.Quote (david @ Sep. 28 2008,16:16) The fact that it's not a pretty story only shows the Bible's candor, in its not sparing the truth when relating events involving Bible personages for our enlightenment. (It helps us to trust the Bible)
Are myths more convincing if they are accompanied by a few grittier myths?Stuart
Quote (david @ Sep. 28 2008,16:16) Also, God’s Word strongly condemns drunkenness. Of course, this account doesn't show him to be a drunkard, but does illustrate the effects of alcohol.
And the effects of alcohol make you want to have sex with your kids? Come on, David.Why can't the honest Christian just admit that there are some story's in the Bible that don't add up. Instead you say this helps us to trust the bible more because these hideous crimes against God's law were not hidden from us but exposed? Perhaps. But then God blesses the same one who broke the laws of incest BUT ennihilated those who broke another law of homosexuality? Something doesn't sound right here.
But I know you can make it sound right, David. Your response will show us how we can believe both that God is love and just EVEN in the light of these contradictions.
Thanks,
MandyQuote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 28 2008,12:11) Hi Theodore,
But wasn't Lot saved because he was the only righteous person in Sodom?Tim
Greetings Tim…..The fact that Lot was the only rightous man in sodom speaks volumes for the behavior of the other residents….I have to say that just as all of us labor to be rightous and there are periods when indeed are,however,we cannot ignore our very nature which is the anthesis of rightousness…and for that reason we all fall short…Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 29 2008,06:25) Quote (david @ Sep. 28 2008,16:16) Also, God’s Word strongly condemns drunkenness. Of course, this account doesn't show him to be a drunkard, but does illustrate the effects of alcohol.
And the effects of alcohol make you want to have sex with your kids? Come on, David.Why can't the honest Christian just admit that there are some story's in the Bible that don't add up. Instead you say this helps us to trust the bible more because these hideous crimes against God's law were not hidden from us but exposed? Perhaps. But then God blesses the same one who broke the laws of incest BUT ennihilated those who broke another law of homosexuality? Something doesn't sound right here.
But I know you can make it sound right, David. Your response will show us how we can believe both that God is love and just EVEN in the light of these contradictions.
Thanks,
Mandy
Greetings Mandy…..Achohol effects every body differently some drunks get violent,some get silly and some succumb to darker side of their nature….God speaks of how the wine can make the heart of the man merry….At same time he speaks of the danger of strong drink and how a drunkard can never enter the kingdom….Let us not the forget the transformation of the water into wine and, I might add that comments among those who sampled it said that the best was saved for last….This did not sound like it was grape juice they were drinking….Jesus raised a cup containing wine at the last supper…..As we all know there are numerous mentions in the bible that speaks to the use and abuse of alchohol….Water into wine. There is another absurd truth claim for which no believer has given any mechanism and for which there is no eyewitness account. Water can only be turned into wine if you add fruit juice and yeast and wait for fermentation to take place. It may seem like magic but it is pretty well understood in terms of the action of enzymes on carbohydrates. So when you say “Let us not the forget the transformation of the water into wine..” let us also not forget that it is perverse to thing that it actually happened.
Stuart
Hi Stuart
I just thought I would post this here in reach, I do like to hear your thoughts.In The Don't Care Basket?
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 10 2008,04:36) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2008,01:27) Are you guys rebelling again?
No T8,Just waiting for an answer to this question.
Are things in the “too hard basket” impossible to answer?When I read things like the story of Lot and his daughters I always think of 2 Timothy.
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Ti 3:16Which one of those things is that scripture profitibale for?
Certainly not instruction in rightenous.
Certainly not doctrine.
It could be reproof or correction except that the bible says nothing about what they did being wrong. It was just one more case where the men of the bible could blame women for what men do.It was eve's fault that Adam ate the forbidden fruit.
It was his daughters fault that Lot got drunk and slept with them.
It was Delilah's fault that Samson came to an untimely end.
It was the virgin's fault that someone raped her and she did not scream loud enough.Did God only create women in order to tempt men?
Tim
Tim.The bible records history whether good or bad. It also contains prophecy and teachings. You have to decipher which is which and it really isn't hard to do.
e.g., Luke 1 says:
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.See what that gospel says about itself? Approaching scripture as the pure words of God where people were sort like zombies programmed for automatic writing is only going to make you either unreasonable in your judgment of scripture, or you will reject it when you see things like you quoted.
If you understand what inspire means, then you can know that I might have been inspired to even write this post, even though I never went into a zombie-puppet state with my fingers just typing out the keys.
People are inspired by all sorts of things. But being inspired by God is the best inspiration.
I think one of the strongest witness in scripture besides the knowledge of health, teachings that seem to encourage the opposite to what you naturally think, yet work wonderfully, would have to be the fact that so much of it is prophecy and has come to pass. It is also not too hard to see that which remains in Revelation coming to past even though it was written around 2 millenia ago.
Yes it would be only ironically in the don't care basket! I does delight me to see Wafa Sultan demolishing muslim clerics with her brutal honesty and her hurricane of a voice. The respect-worthy Imams just don't know how to treat her and I imagine they are doubly miffed that she is a female heretic. Islam desparately needs the same Enlightenment that Western Europe (christian Europe) went through a couple of hundred years ago, which pushed empiricism and reason ahead of religious dogma.
I join her in proclaiming myself a secular human being and express my dismay that anyone could call himself a muslim or christian first and a human second.
Stuart
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