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Georg said:
Quote thinker Is not this supposed to happen in the millennium?
Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Have you been watching “Wild Kingdom” lately?
Annnnd, when did this occur, or did it?
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I suggest you do some real thinking.
Georg,
According to Isaiah 11 this was fulfilled as Christ's first coming. You are amkingGeorg said:
Quote thinker Is not this supposed to happen in the millennium?
Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Have you been watching “Wild Kingdom” lately?
Annnnd, when did this occur, or did it?
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I suggest you do some real thinking.
Georg,
According to Isaiah 11 this was fulfilled as Christ's first coming. You are making the same mistake the Jews of Jesus' day did by expecting an earthly kingdom. There is no “millennium” as I have already pointed out. The word “chilias” is plural. It literally reads “thousands of years.”The Septuagint uses this plural word in its translation of Exodus 20:6 which says that God will show mercy to “thousands.” Even some millennialist commentators admit that “a thousand” is plural and that it refers to an indefinite number:
Quote God uses the term [a thousand] in reference to Himself figuratively, an indefinite or innumerable amount. This same practice is seen in the NT, e.g. 2 Peter 3:8-10 and probably also in Revelation 20:2, 5) Theological Wordbook of the Old testament, p. 48 The ironic thing about this quote is that the authors who said it believe in a millennium. Yet they admit that “a thousand” represents an indefinite number.
Again, the word “chilias' is plural. Keith can easily verify this though he probably will not want to talk about it. Millennialists usually don't like to talk about the plural “chilias.”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,12:18) Georg said: Quote thinker Is not this supposed to happen in the millennium?
Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Have you been watching “Wild Kingdom” lately?
Annnnd, when did this occur, or did it?
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I suggest you do some real thinking.
Georg,
According to Isaiah 11 this was fulfilled as Christ's first coming. You are amking
JackSo all those things happened at 70AD
But they were only for a time?
So when did the child stop playing around the hole of a poisness snake?
When did the Lion stop laying down with the lamb?
Why is there still wars when he said there would no wars anymore?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 06 2009,04:42) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,12:18) Georg said: Quote thinker Is not this supposed to happen in the millennium?
Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Have you been watching “Wild Kingdom” lately?
Annnnd, when did this occur, or did it?
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I suggest you do some real thinking.
Georg,
According to Isaiah 11 this was fulfilled as Christ's first coming. You are amking
JackSo all those things happened at 70AD
But they were only for a time?
So when did the child stop playing around the hole of a poisness snake?
When did the Lion stop laying down with the lamb?
Why is there still wars when he said there would no wars anymore?
WJ
Keith,
The fulfillment of all those things began with christ's first coming. We see that it continues to be fulfilled in the new earth.Quote The Glorious New Creation
17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “ It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD. (Is. 65:17-24)I should have said that those things began to be fulfilled with Christ's first coming. We see that the fulfillment of those things continues in the new earth with no intermediate millennium.
BTW, when are you going to get around to answering the statement in verse 23 which says that they still “bring forth children” in the new earth? The words “descendants” and “bring forth children” and “offspring” are irrefutable proof that procreation continues in the new earth.
Physical death also continues in the new earth (vs. 20). The “new earth” is simply THIS earth covenantally renewed. If any man be in Christ he is a “new creation.” Were you annihilated and then created new? Was sin and physical death eradicated in you as a “new creation?”
We are promised immortality ONLY IN HEAVEN (1 Peter 1:4).
thinker
Hi TT,
Our inheritance is preserved in heaven as 1 Peter 1.4 says, but it does not say heaven is our inheritance.The earth continues to bring forth children for God because Jesus has not yet returned and Acts 2.39 is still in force.
Quote (georg @ Nov. 06 2009,06:07) W J He's all yours.
Georg
Of course I am all WJ's. You do not have the answers. Your books on prophecy say that the lion will lie with the lamb in a supposed millennium. But Isaiah begins it with the first coming of Christ and continues it in the new earth. No intermediate millennium is even mentioned by Isaiah.You anti-trinitarians amaze me. You claim to be anti-traditional yet you hold on to traditional beliefs on prophecy. Your books say that every eye will see Him coming in the clouds in a natural sort of way. This is totally preposterous! It is not possible in the natural sense that His coming could be witnessed in both hemispheres.
It would take some kind of special manifestation for every eye to see His coming. Jesus came right out and said that they would see the “SIGN” of the Son of Man “IN HEAVEN.” Jesus said that if they said, “lo He is here” or “lo, He is there” we should not believe it. He said that His coming is visible “as the lightning shines from the east to the west” and you don't believe it.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,06:50) Hi TT,
Our inheritance is preserved in heaven as 1 Peter 1.4 says, but it does not say heaven is our inheritance.The earth continues to bring forth children for God because Jesus has not yet returned and Acts 2.39 is still in force.
Nick,
Isaiah said that children are brought forth on the new earth (65:23).thinker
Hi TT,
Indeed the children of Israel will know times of blessing when Jesus rules over them from Jerusalem in the Millenium.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 06 2009,04:42) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,12:18) Georg said: Quote thinker Is not this supposed to happen in the millennium?
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Have you been watching “Wild Kingdom” lately?
Annnnd, when did this occur, or did it?
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I suggest you do some real thinking.
Georg,
According to Isaiah 11 this was fulfilled as Christ's first coming. You are amking
JackSo all those things happened at 70AD
But they were only for a time?
So when did the child stop playing around the hole of a poisness snake?
When did the Lion stop laying down with the lamb?
Why are there still wars when he said there would no wars anymore?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) Keith,
The fulfillment of all those things began with christ's first coming. We see that it continues to be fulfilled in the new earth.
Really Jack, where?Jack says that the following quotes happened in 70AD…
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) The Glorious New Creation
You call this the “Glorious New Creation”. Hello, Jack to earth!Jack quotes
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) 17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
Jack says this happened in 70AD. But the scriptures says “the former shall not be remembered”. But it seems that the former is remembered because the current heavens and earth has not passed away. Let’s see what that means…The Apostle Peter says…By the same word “the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire”, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7
Jack says the heavens and the earth burned with fire in 70AD, yet there is no scientific evidence or testimony by any of the apostles or early church Fathers that the “heavens and the earth” burned up. Verse 17 of Jacks quote is that he would “Create” new heavens and a new earth”.
We have historical records of the great deluge yet there is not a wimper any where of a “New Heaven and New earth” that was “Created”, scientifically or historically!
Peter continues…
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. “The heavens will disappear with a roar; THE ELEMENTS WILL BE DESTROYED BY FIRE, AND THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN IT WILL BE LAID BARE. 2 Peter 3:10
Peter says the “The heavens will disappear with a roar”, I submit that Jack has put his head in the sand because there is not a shred of scientific or historical evidence that this happened. Peter also makes sure they understand him and says “THE ELEMENTS WILL BE DESTROYED BY FIRE, AND THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN IT WILL BE LAID BARE”.
The Greek for “elements” is defined as… the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe.
The Greek word for “heavens” invariably is defined as… 1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it a) the universe, the world
The Greek word for “earth” invariably is defined as… 1) arable land 2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
In other words Peter is saying that the present heavens and earth will literally melt and God will create the New.
Peter yet clarifies this point…”SINCE EVERYTHING WILL BE DESTROYED IN THIS WAY”, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 2 Peter 3:11
The Greek word for destroy is defined as “Dissolve”, it is the same word that John uses for destroying the Temple (John 2:19) and destroying the works of the devil in (1 John 3:8)
Jack says this happened in 70AD, but was everything destroyed then? No.
For Peter goes even further to clarify his point…
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. “That day will bring about the DESTRUCTION OF THE HEAVENS BY FIRE, and THE ELEMENTS WILL MELT IN THE HEAT. 2 Peter 3:12There are those words again Jack. “DESTRUCTION, ELEMENTS, MELT, IN THE HEAT!
But Jack says this happened in 70AD.. yet Peter once again says…
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to “a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness”. 2 Peter 3:13
And John in Revelations says…
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: “for the first heaven and the first earth were PASSED AWAY“; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:1
Where is this “New Heaven and New Earth” that is a home of righteousness? Why is there still a sea? Where is the historical record of the “destruction” of the Old by melting its elements (the material causes of the Universe) with fire?
Jack says this happened in 70AD.
So then Jack sets out to prove the New heavens and the New earth has come and he quotes…
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
Jack says this happened in 70AD, but why is there still the voice of weeping and crying?Jack quote
s…Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) 20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Yet we see infants still dying young!Jack says the following has happened!
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
Yet we see men and children dying under a 100 years old, in fact not very many even make it to 100!
Jack quotes…Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat;
Yet we know that men still build and others inhabit. And we know that men still plant and others eat. Where is the fulfillment of these things Jack?Jack quotes…
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble;
Yet we know that children are still brought into this world for trouble!Jack quotes…
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them. 24 “ It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
The Lord has promised this to all his saints before the New Creation!Jack quotes…
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36)
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,” Says the LORD. (Is. 65:17-24)
Then Jack says…Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36)
I should have said that those things began to be fulfilled with Christ's first coming. We see that the fulfillment of those things continues in the new earth with no intermediate millennium.
If these things began in 70AD Jack then why is there no record of such and why after almost 2000 years are wolves eating lambs and lions are not eating straw and serpents are not eating dust?Notice Jack he says… “THEY SHALL NOT HURT NOR DESTROY IN ALL MY HOLY MOUNTAIN,” SAYS THE LORD”!
Why is there still hurting and destroying Jack? Better than that, where is his “Holy Mountain” that these things are supposed to be taking place?
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) BTW, when are you going to get around to answering the statement in verse 23 which says that they still “bring forth children” in the new earth? The words “descendants” and “bring forth children” and “offspring” are irrefutable proof that procreation continues in the new earth.
I just did! You are basing your theory on the premise that the New heavens and the New earth has come. What does that prove?Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) Physical death also continues in the new earth (vs. 20). The “new earth” is simply THIS earth covenantally renewed. If any man be in Christ he is a “new creation.” Were you annihilated and then created new?
Absolutely, I died and was raised in newness of life. The Old has passed away, Annihilated, born again by the Spirit as a Son of God. I am not the same man that was dead in trespasses and sin. I am a “New Man” created in righteousness in Chirst.Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) Was sin and physical death eradicated in you as a “new creation?”
My new man which is Spiritual, the inward man, has eternal life. Jesus said…And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood “has eternal life”, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54
Our hope Jack is that our bodies of sin and death will be changed and made unto his glorious body at his appearing… 2 Cor 5:1-10, 1 Cor 15:50-58
This is to happen at the last trump when Jesus comes again!
But your theory removes the blessed hope. Titus 2:13
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,13:36) We are promised immortality ONLY IN HEAVEN (1 Peter 1:4). thinker
Jack, where is Jesus? Is he in the clouds or is he in heaven? Is he still at the right hand of the Father in the highest place in the Universe or is he in the clouds with the Father at his left hand?You have got a lot of explaining to do bro!
Blessings Keith
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,08:22) Hi TT,
Indeed the children of Israel will know times of blessing when Jesus rules over them from Jerusalem in the Millenium.
Nick,
It clearly says that children are “brought forth” on the new earth. It says that they will be the “descendants” of the blessed of the Lord. Uh, Nick, the word “descendants” means that there is procreation on the new earth (THIS earth covenantally renewed).There is no getting around these statements.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 06 2009,11:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,08:22) Hi TT,
Indeed the children of Israel will know times of blessing when Jesus rules over them from Jerusalem in the Millenium.
Nick,
It clearly says that children are “brought forth” on the new earth. It says that they will be the “descendants” of the blessed of the Lord. Uh, Nick, the word “descendants” means that there is procreation on the new earth (THIS earth covenantally renewed).There is no getting around these statements.
thinker
JackThen you must accept that the “New Covenant” is the “Old Covenant” renewed.
He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. “They will perish“, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment “they will be changed“. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.” Heb 1:10-12
“Perish” is defined as 1) to destroy a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
“Changed” is defined as 1) to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transform
This has not happened yet Jack!
Blessings Keith
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Really Jack, where?
Keith,
What! I gave the passages already. Are you in denial? Isaiah's prophecy of the lion and the lamb and all that was first given in the context of Christ's first coming (11). Isaiah gave the lion and the lamb prophecy again in the context of the new earth (65:17-24). I am not going to duplicate these passages again. Don't be like the anti-trinitarians here who kept avoiding our scripture which says that Christ “will be” subject.WJ:
Quote You call this the “Glorious New Creation”. Hello, Jack to earth!
Are you a “glorious new creation” in God's sight (2 Cor. 5:17)?WJ:
Quote Jack says this happened in 70AD. But the scriptures says “the former shall not be remembered”. But it seems that the former is remembered because the current heavens and earth has not passed away. Let’s see what that means…
Can you recollect being reminded of your sins continually by offering daily sacrifices? The daily reminder, that is, the Mosaic sacrifices have ceased. So we remember our sins no more. This is speaking about the passing away of old covenant things.WJ:
Quote Jack says this happened in 70AD, but was everything destroyed then? No.
It says also that the heaven and earth of Noah's day were “destroyed” (2 Peter 3:5-7). Do we live on a different planet than Noah did? NO! We have the fossils to prove it.WJ:
Quote In other words Peter is saying that the present heavens and earth will literally melt and God will create the New.
No sir! The “heaven and earth” in Jewish thought was Jerusalem. Hear Josephus the Jewish historian:Quote The new heavens and new earth Peter writes about are an echo from Isaiah sixty-five and sixty-six. In those chapters we read where God will pour out His wrath on Jerusalem (which fact happened in AD 70) and on His rebellious people before He creates (spiritually, not physically) the new heavens and new earth. In the New Jerusalem of the new heavens and new earth, physical death will remain (Isa.65:20; 66:24) home building and agriculture will continue (Isa.65:21–22) there will be descendants (Isa.65:23; 66:22), there will be a new priestly group (Isa.65:24 which is describing the believer church – which we believing Christians are! (see 1 Peter 2:9). The new heavens and new earth is referring to the New Covenant, which is the eternal state while we are still in the third dimension (the physical realm) in our earthly bodies. This is the kingdom of God where Christ indwells the believer (Col.1:26–27) a kingdom not made with hands (Dn.2:44–45; Col.2:10–11). A convincing record of the passing away of heaven and earth is found in the writings of Josephus, a Jewish historian who was actually present during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, and afterward wrote of what had happened. His writing is quite an eye opener on the subject of heaven and earth as viewed by the Jews.
“However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world: for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a Heaven peculiar to God…” Josephus, Antiquities, Book 3, Chapter 6, Paragraph 4, Section 123).
“When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests as a place accessible to the common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men” Josephus, Antiquities, Book 3, Chapter 7, Paragraph 7, Section 181).
Josephus is portraying the first century Jewish understanding of “heaven and earth” in these writings. He is describing how the Jews looked upon their place of worship in the Mosaic Tabernacle and later in the Temple as “a heaven and earth.” They believed that their Temple was at the very center of the earth, and saw it as the place where heaven and earth came together, and where God met man. In the quotes just made from Josephus, he calls the outer part of the tabernacle “an imitation of the system of the world” and the “sea and land, on which men live.” By contrast, the inner Holy of Holies he terms “heaven peculiar to God.” There was a fabric veil that separated these two compartments in the Tabernacle and the Temple, which he describes as being “very ornamental, and embroidered with all sorts of flowers which the earth produces.” This last quote is found in Antiquities, Book 3, Chapter 6, Paragraph 4, Section 126.
http://christeternalchristianchurch.com/learningactivity36.htm
WJ:
Quote There are those words again Jack. “DESTRUCTION, ELEMENTS, MELT, IN THE HEAT!
See Josephus again above.WJ:
Quote And John in Revelations says… And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: “for the first heaven and the first earth were PASSED AWAY”; and there was no more sea.
See Josephus again above. And there is a “sea” on the new earth. According to Isaiah's prophecy men will come from ISLANDS to hear about the Lord (66:19). This necessarily means that there is a literal sea on the new earth. In the Revelation the word “sea” is used interchangeably with the word “abyss.” In John's vision the “sea” is the abyss where satan was bound.Paul used the word “abyss” in place of the word “sea” in his commentary on Deuteronomy 30:13 (Romams 10:7). Again, Isaiah's prophecy says that men will travel from ISLANDS to hear about the Lord. So there is a literal sea in the new earth.
WJ:
Quote Where is this “New Heaven and New Earth” that is a home of righteousness?
Peter is speaking about the righteousness which is by faith.WJ:
Quote Where is the historica
l record of the “destruction” of the Old by melting its elements (the material causes of the Universe) with fire?
Peter was speaking about the destruction of the “elements” of the old covenant which were still in place when he wrote. See Galatians 4:3, 9 in reference to the “elements.” It was NOT about the “material causes” of the universe as you say.Did you know that most interpreters do not accept your definition of “elements?”
WJ:
Quote Yet we see men and children dying under a 100 years old, in fact not very many even make it to 100!
In its old covenant context this simply means that believers will not be covenant breakers as they were under the old Mosaic system.WJ:
Quote Yet we know that men still build and others inhabit. And we know that men still plant and others eat. Where is the fulfillment of these things Jack?
It was the Lord Himself who took from them and gave to their enemies as a punishment for their sin (62:8-9). Does God take from you today and give to your enemies as punishment for your sin? Answer: No! The government may take from you but God does not because your sin has been punished in Christ!WJ:
Quote Notice Jack he says… “THEY SHALL NOT HURT NOR DESTROY IN ALL MY HOLY MOUNTAIN,” SAYS THE LORD”! Why is there still hurting and destroying Jack?
“They shall never be destroyed” by wolves and “neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand” (John 10). The serpent also touches them not. Praise you Lord Jesus!WJ:
Quote …where is his “Holy Mountain” that these things are supposed to be taking place?
God's “holy mountain” was Jerusalem. What is the new covenant Jerusalem? It is the Bride the Lamb's wife (Isaiah 60 with Rev. 21).You might want to consider that the futurists have made the same mistake the Jews did in expecting an earthly and carnal kingdom.
BTW, your denial that the new earth of Isaiah 65-66 is the same as Peter's and the Revelation must mean that you think it is not the same new earth. Is there more than one new earth Keith?
Jack
Hi TT,
So fossils are proof for you of history?
Strong evidence is not proof is it?Your base you doctrines on the flimsy tacking together of verses with logic and allegorise what does not fit.
Much like how trinity developed I suppose and swallowing that lie makes other weak things easy to accept?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,04:55) Hi TT,
So fossils are proof for you of history?
Strong evidence is not proof is it?Your base you doctrines on the flimsy tacking together of verses with logic and allegorise what does not fit.
Much like how trinity developed I suppose and swallowing that lie makes other weak things easy to accept?
Nick,
Peter said that the pre-flood earth was “destroyed.” The Greek “apollumi” according to Strong's means “to destroy FULLY” (# 622). So by yours and WJ's logic we are on a different earth than Noah lived on before the flood.You accuse me of allegorizing. Seeing that you condemn this may I assume that you take Isaiah literally in reference to the blessed of the Lord “bringing forth children?” If you allegorize this then you condemn yourself. If you take it literally then you are forced to agree with me that the human race will continue forever.
You should acquire a little more knowledge about these things before you speak yourself into a trap. Yeah that's right Nick. You're trapped now. If you deny that the human race will procreate on the new earth you must allegorize what Isaiah said.
thinker
Hi TT,
Indeed God is still rebirthing His children even now.
you should leave your strange gods behind and come.Hi TT,
The dead of Israel are raised as in Ez 37, bones and flesh, to be ruled by their appointed King, Jesus Christ.
Then will Jl 2 find it's fulfillment.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 07 2009,03:59) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 06 2009,11:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,08:22) Hi TT,
Indeed the children of Israel will know times of blessing when Jesus rules over them from Jerusalem in the Millenium.
Nick,
It clearly says that children are “brought forth” on the new earth. It says that they will be the “descendants” of the blessed of the Lord. Uh, Nick, the word “descendants” means that there is procreation on the new earth (THIS earth covenantally renewed).There is no getting around these statements.
thinker
JackThen you must accept that the “New Covenant” is the “Old Covenant” renewed.
He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. “They will perish“, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment “they will be changed“. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.” Heb 1:10-12
“Perish” is defined as 1) to destroy a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
“Changed” is defined as 1) to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transform
This has not happened yet Jack!
Blessings Keith
Keith,
I am very glad you pointed out that the word “perish” means “to put out of the way entirely.” This is exactly what Peter said about the pre-flood earth. He said that it “perished.” According to Strong's this means to “destroy FULLY” (# 622). So by your logic the earth we live on today is not the same earth that Noah lived on before the flood.
You may as well adopt the theory that sinners will not be punished but annihilated. For the annihilationists apply “apollumi” as you do saying that the unrighteous will “come to an end.”The old and new covenants were the Abrahamic covenant under two administrations.
The earth has indeed been “changed.” It is under Christ now instead of Moses.
Explain how sinners can live on the futurist's notion of the new earth (Is. 65:20).
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 07 2009,06:36) Hi TT,
Indeed God is still rebirthing His children even now.
you should leave your strange gods behind and come.
Nick,
By “rebirthing” do you mean salvation? So you do believe that men will still be getting saved on the new earth after all?thinker
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