The soul

Blocked

Gene,

The dust returns to the earth. The spirit returns to Him who gave it. The soul sleeps with the fathers in Sheol…………until it is again awakened by the infuse of spirit and given another body to dwell within.

mike

March 1, 2011 at 10:31 am#237697

Participant

Mike Boll,

It appears I was unclear. I understand the Jehovah Witness explanation of why Gehenna is used to symbolize the lake of fire and the scriptures used to support that symbolization. I am not aware of Old Testament scriptures from why the idea symbolized by Gehenna was derived. I suggested that some scriptures mentioning pit could very well be such scriptures. I wanted to know if anyone knew any more than those.

March 1, 2011 at 10:33 am#237698

Participant

Gene,

The original word used in Matthew 10:28 is Geenna which is Gehennah, The Valley of Hinnom which according to Jewish tradition was a place where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. In no way can it be translated “Grave”

How do you explain that men can destroy the body and not the soul if you believe the soul dies when the body does?

The word translated “hell” in some versions that could be translated grave is “Hadēs”. Another that is a part of the Hades that is also translated “hell” is “Tartaroō”, aka Tartartus, the place wicked dead go to await the day of judgment.

The Soul is spiritual in form and so sometimes called “spirit” as is the spirit itself. The difference is that the soul is the essential self while the spirit is the essential disposition of the self. An unclean disposition will not return to God while even the soul of the wicked will in order to await its future judgment in Hades. The body decays and thus returns to the earth from where it comes. I have come to believe that the spirit being the essential disposition of the soul goes along with it to await judgment.

Geenna

Hell is the place of the future punishment call “Gehenna” or “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

Hadēs
1.name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2.Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3.later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

Tartaroō
1.the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2.to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

March 1, 2011 at 3:16 pm#237702

Participant

Kerwin……….Men can destory the Body but not the soul because only GOD can recreate another Soul by resurrecting another BODY and adding spirit back into it and the Man will again become a living Soul, or God can Leave the mans Body in the Grave and Both the body and the soul would be destroyed . Why do you think there is a resurrection of a Body in the first place if a Body is not needed in order for a man to become a LIVING SOUL Again.

Kerwin, have you not heard “dust to dust, ashes to ashes, makes no difference if a man is cast into a burning pit outside of Jerusalem or in the ground He still is in a grave and his soul is gone for ever unless GOD resurrects a Body and add spirit back into it.( NOTICE CAREFULLY)all you proofs have to do with the GREEK Mythology's But none of that has to do with the truth of GOD, just PAGAN Concepts brought into “CHRISTENDOM” These false teachings only bring Mythology and cause a sense of mysticism and is far from the SIMPLE TRUTH of GOD> Kerwin when a man dies He is truly dead , nothing more exists , when Jesus died he truly died and he still would be in the grave if God had not raised His body and add spirit back into it. Jesus was truly dead just as he said he was, and after his resurrection he is alive for evermore. The same thing must happen to us in order for us to live for evermore also. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

March 1, 2011 at 3:39 pm#237703

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2011,14:22)

Gene,

mike

Mike………..There you go adding to what is said again, Indeed the dust returns to the earth from which it came and the spirit returns to him who gave it as scripture says, the rest is your rendition of what you think but no scripture Facts to back it up. I quoted the EXACT SCRIPTURE why try to add you two cent to it. Why try to distort what is written? No scripture shows a Soul alive or LIVING without a Body or after the body dies. The reason sleep is used is to portray to us that a resurrection of that same Body is possible by the act of GOD alone. When the apostles said to Jesus about Lazarus sleeping, what was his response? (HE IS DEAD) even though he knew GOD was going to resurrect him shortly. The whole idea of using sleep as a not permanent death experience is to show a resurrection, not a separate SOUL floating around in some Pagan “tartarus or neither world” of ghosts and apparitions . Is all false teachings and Not found in scriptures at all.

March 2, 2011 at 2:47 am#237765

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2011,08:39)

No scripture shows a Soul alive or LIVING without a Body or after the body dies.

Not even this one?

Revelation 6 NIV
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Gene, here's a couple others that speak of soul as separate from body:

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

Psalm 31:9
Be merciful to me, LORD, for I am in distress; my eyes grow weak with sorrow, my soul and body with grief.

Psalm 103:1
Of David. Praise the LORD, my soul; all my inmost being, praise his holy name.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

mike

March 2, 2011 at 10:01 am#237795

Participant

Gene,

I realize you believe in universal salvation which causes difficulties with you understanding scriptures pertaining to Sheol, Gehenah, or the parts of Sheol where the souls of the wicked and righteous dwell in segregation from one another.

I believe this has led you through lack of knowledge to accuse me of mixing Greek mythology with the truth of Christ when the names I used that are linked to Greek mythology were the very ones that I obtained from New Testament Scripture. So in accusing me you accuse those who used those names to symbolize concepts that God spoke of through others in the Old Testament; much as Gehenna is used to symbolize the pit of destruction. As I pointed out previously in another thread Jesus described Hades in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. He even let us know that it was divided in to two sections one of which is Tartartus which is reserved for the wicked and the other which is called a pleasure garden. God inspired the writer to use those words his purpose and that purpose is righteous.

So you should now see that the definitions of two of those locations I previous quoted the Lexicon definitions of correspond to Jesus description is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The third, Gehenna, is mentioned in the book of Revelations and we are told that the grave will be thrown into it, Revelations 20:14.

In addition you state that if the body dies the soul is gone forever unless God recreated a body and adds spirit back into it. That contradicts what Jesus stated as he clearly stated that those whose bodies were dead were still alive when he addressed the Sadducees heresy that there would be no resurrection. Peter in 2 Peter 1:13-14 tells us that he is tented in his body and that he will put that tent aside. He does not say that he will cease to exist until his resurrection. Instead he states he will leave the body. This agrees with what I have previously quoted about the boy who returned to life when God returned his soul to his body.

As for the resurrection, your soul being the essential you is a shadow of who you are. To be a complete human being you must have both a soul and a body; which is why Adam did not become a living soul until his soul entered his body.

Do you understand …

Quote

1)… that when I mention soul I am speaking of the essential self ?
2)…that I am speaking of the essential character of a person I call it spirit?
3)…that I also use the word spirit to mean immaterial spiritual element?

Reference:

Revelation 20:14(NIV)

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

March 2, 2011 at 5:35 pm#237839

Participant

Kerwin………….Soul is translated the Same as Spirit in the bible in many place, in fact most places and that causes the most confusion here, Just look up Soul and see if this is true or not, But Scripture Plainly say a SOUL CAN BE (DESTROYED) IN THE GRAVE OR (hell) A word that means grave not some Gehenna fire out side of Jerusalem in the valley of Hennon as if that would make any difference anyway. And when Jesus talked about the God Destroying a Man He simple said (BOTH) (two things) that can destory a man notice he did not say three thing that can destory a man but two. A man is destroyed if His body is separated from the Spirit in it. He no longer exists. “FOR WHEN A MAN DIES HIS THOUGHTS (PARISH) there is nothing alive after a person dies. A soul is Representative of a complete Person Body and Spirit In it.

Also notice in the Valley of dead bone mentioned in Ezekiel where God explains it clearly Where is ANY SOUL Mentioned in the RESURRECTION of A MAN , He simple showed a Body being reconstructed and then Spirit added back into HIM and he went on to say this was the (WHOLE) HOUSE of ISREAL> No where does scripture show any resurrection of a man without a BODY and that Includes Jesus also. Genesis clearly shows what a (LIVING) SOUL Is, it is a BODY with SPIRIT Added into It. Nothing more and nothing Less. It is absolutely crucial that we are resurected with a Body and Spirit added back into it just as it shows in Ezekiel. All the rest is conjecture and suppositions that came into Christianity by Pagan thought and practices of Greek Mythology which confuses the truth that a man is simply a Body created by God with Spirit in him , just as all the creation of all things that has life in them in this world.

Kerwin Try this Look up the word Soul in (ALL) the OLD TESTAMENT renderings and notice it implies the (COMPLETE BEING) Both body and Spirit, them go to the New Testament Greek translation of that word and it takes on the meaning of SPIRIT without the complete Being. So that is the dilemma here , which is it? And if we include the Greek meaning into what Jesus said about God destroying the Body then (it should read SPIRIT) Not Soul right? where?, In the GRAVE, Why because the Spirit is separated from the Body when a man dies and returns to GOD and the man as a BEING is Gone for ever and unless GOD restores a BODY and Adds Spirit back into It, he never will again become a living Soul, So while Man can destory the Body and we can die, But it is God only who can destory the complete Person in the Grave not man, because God can resurrect a new body and add Spirit back into it or He can simply leave you in the grave and you will no longer exist. It really is simple Kerwin there is not three parts to us , just a Body with Spirit in (IT) very simple to understand.

No need to add any mystery to it brother IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

March 2, 2011 at 5:45 pm#237840

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2011,12:47)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2011,08:39)

No scripture shows a Soul alive or LIVING without a Body or after the body dies.

Not even this one?

Gene, here's a couple others that speak of soul as separate from body:

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

Psalm 31:9
Be merciful to me, LORD, for I am in distress; my eyes grow weak with sorrow, my soul and body with grief.

Psalm 103:1
Of David. Praise the LORD, my soul; all my inmost being, praise his holy name.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

mike

Mike………..If you understood it right you could easily see that soul in the Old Testament represents the (COMPLETE BEING) not just parts of Him. Does not take a genius to figure that out. Look it up and you will see Soul in Hebrew is the (COMPLETE PERSON) if Genesis is not enough for you, Its Meaning changed in the Greek to mean Spirit Check it our. IMO

peace and love…………………………………gene

March 3, 2011 at 3:28 am#237874

Blocked

What about Genesis? Nevermind Gene. I'm tired of discoursing with someone who only says what HE wants to say, but doesn't answer MY points also.

I've asked you if Genesis could be saying that God breathed life into Adam, and he became a living soul……………WITHIN THE BODY GOD CREATED. I got no response.

The Hebrew word “nephesh” COULD refer to life itself, a man, OR just the inner being of a man. Or breath, appetite, mind, desire……………and many other things.

So your statement is one sided.

Likewise with the Greek word “psuche”. It could mean breath, desire, the entire living being, or, as NETNotes writes:

2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not
dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

I don't see “spirit” anywhere in the definitions of “psuche” though.

mike

March 3, 2011 at 12:04 pm#237908

Participant

Gene,

I understand that you would have difficulties with this topic due to your related beliefs but please try to read what I write and consider it in your responses. I have stated quite clearly that Gehenna is the lake of fire mentioned in the book of Revelation into which Sheol will be cast at the end of days. Gehennah can obviously therefore not be the grave as the land the dead is cast within as a piece of trash is cast on a trash pile to burn. Like the wicked, including Satan, it will no longer be required as its time is done. The Lake of fire, which is the destination of those who do not come into the light because they love darkness, will not be until its time comes. That time is not yet since there is still work to do.

Hades, also known as Sheol, is the waiting cell of the souls of dead, aka dead souls, who await the judgment that they are subject to for what they dead while in the mortal flesh. Tartartus is where the wicked dead await while Abraham’s Bossom, a pleasure garden, is where the righteous dead await. Scriptures use off the words Tartartus, Hades, and even Paradise, in the context of a destination after death, confirm that Jesus was describing an actual place in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. In addition Jesus tells us the dead yet live and thus the must live somewhere. In the aforementioned Parable he describes such a place.

Humans kill the body and the soul departs to the destination God chooses according to his righteous judgment. When God puts a person is the lake of fire then both their body and soul are destroyed. A soul cannot be changed since it is the essential human being and any change would merely create a new human being while destroying the old. Those that do not hunger and thirst for righteousness are required to shape those that do hunger and thirst for righteousness. If they were not required for his righteous plan then God would not have created those ignoble vessels in the first place as he desires no man to perish. This is show in his action for even knowing they will not come to him God still reaches out to them because of his Great love. Even though he shows his justice by casting them in to the pit of destruction he also shows his mercy and so they will not suffer any more than is necessary for his righteous plans.

The Spirit is not an intrinsic part of who an individual is. The body, as a filter (a), is though is not the essential person. The spirit a person chooses to live by is a prime determinate of their character.

In Genesis 2:7 the NIV translators translated to “being” the same word the KJV translators translated to soul. This translation is reasonable if you consider that in Genesis 6:13-17 beings are called “flesh”. Therefore to absolutely conclude that Genesis 2:7 is saying that the whole being is the soul is erroneous especially as it is treated as separate from the flesh in other scriptures.

I do believe that evidence points to the breath of life and the soul being one and the same since when one leaves the other does. The evidence is not conclusive as both could leave at the same time and still be separate. I know of no place in scripture where breath and soul are indicated as being separate such as the clause “body and soul” indicate about those parts. If you know then please let me know. If you know why the soul cannot be the breath of life then please let me know. Thank you.

Note a: I used the word “filter” to describe how the soul observes creation through the body to some extent. The spirit one chooses to live by does affect how the world is perceived as well but is not intrinsic to them as an individual beyond the character they express. For example an individual that hungers and thirst for righteousness can express a character that falls short of God’s glory because the spirit they live by is unclean.
An individual that does not love righteousness will reject a clean spirit and choose to live by an unclean one instead. Only those entering the new covenant are given the choice to walk according to a clean spirit and so be freed from slavery to sin.

References:

Genesis 2:7(NIV)

Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

The final two are from the King James Version.

Genesis 2

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 6
13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
15And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

March 3, 2011 at 3:51 pm#237911

terraricca

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2011,05:04)

Gene,

References:

Genesis 2:7(NIV)

Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

The final two are from the King James Version.

Genesis 2

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

kerwin

well done brother

Pierre

March 3, 2011 at 3:59 pm#237913

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2011,13:28)

What about Genesis? Nevermind Gene. I'm tired of discoursing with someone who only says what HE wants to say, but doesn't answer MY points also.

I've asked you if Genesis could be saying that God breathed life into Adam, and he became a living soul……………WITHIN THE BODY GOD CREATED. I got no response.

The Hebrew word “nephesh” COULD refer to life itself, a man, OR just the inner being of a man. Or breath, appetite, mind, desire……………and many other things.

So your statement is one sided.

Likewise with the Greek word “psuche”. It could mean breath, desire, the entire living being, or, as NETNotes writes:

2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not
dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

I don't see “spirit” anywhere in the definitions of “psuche” though.

mike

Mike………..MIke good then Don't discourse with me i also would appreciate it seeing you have no idea what your are talking about IMO>Your again saying i have not answered you ignorant questions. Does Scripture say man became a Spirit and Body And (A SOUL)? (NO) IT said after GOD breathe the breathe of life which is translated in (ALL) scripture as spirit into him HE (THEN) BECAME A “LIVING SOUL” So what was he before HE BECAME A (LIVING) SOUL , a (DEAD ONE). You throw out all these conjectures of yours that has nothing to do with scriptures just pure speculation and confusions to distort the truth IMO, If you don't understand something then why even commit on it in the first place.

AND common sense would tell you if a soul is dead it is NOT ALIVE> Again A SOUL IS THE (COMPLETE) BEING, NOT JUST PART OF ONE.

Don't believe me just look up the Strong's meaning of the word Nephesh or Soul. Tell me this how can a SOUL see CORRUPTION and DESTRUCTION in the GRAVE as SCRIPTURE says it can, if it continues to live after a person dies. Just another false MYSTERY RELIGION Teaching you have enjoined yourself in preaching and teaching. IMO

peace and love………………………gene

March 3, 2011 at 4:19 pm#237916

terraricca

Participant

gene

common sense ” is not a reliable thing to fallow ,because it is formed by our own spirit mind,

if you are a truthful person :your common sense would be more reliable than the one who does not care about the truth of God.

so our common sense is a dangerous place just like the hearth.

Pierre

March 3, 2011 at 5:01 pm#237920

Participant

Terricca……….So what you are saying is MYSTERY RELIGIOUS DOGMAS are you true source of understandings and you throw (COMMONSENSE) OUT THE WINDOW)> That explains a lot about YOU Brother. Well your not alone here that is for sure.

peace and love…………………………………gene

March 3, 2011 at 5:27 pm#237921

Participant

Kerwin……….{lease notice all you explanation are not scripturally back up brother. God never said man became a SPIRIT AND A BODY AND A SOUL NOW TRUTHFULLY did He? No, in fact most all scripture show and deals with body and spirit ( a living Being) when it is regarding Souls. Did you look up the Words Nephesh in the Strong's and also its translation in the GREEK have you notices that the Greek translate it mostly as Spirit while the Hebrew translate it as the complete being. Kerwin I tell you brother a Soul is the complete being and it only consists of a BODY with Spirit (intellect) in it. Nothing more or nothing less, it is absolutely crucial for us to continue to exist that GOD resurrects us with a Body and adds spirit back into it or we will never live again. I also believe you are mixing up (as many do) Parabolic and Metaphoric and Symbolic scripture with Literal interpretations of them brother. Remember the whole book of REVELATIONS was SIGNIFIED.

MEANING….. To make known something, either by signs or words; to express of communicate to another any idea, thought, wish, a hod, wink, gesture, signal or other sign, A man signifies his mind by his voice or by written characters; he may signify his mind by a nod or motion, provided the person to whom he directs it, understand what is intend by it, A general or admiral signifies his commands by signals to officers as a distance.

Kerwin…….The complete book of Revelations was Signified or Symbolized, you can not take it LITERAL but must come to see its Spiritual relationship . Scripture Say that GOD is a consuming Fire, not some literial Lake of FIRE where people are tossed into an ever burning agony experience for all eternity as many assume. What kind of GOD is that , that would do such a thing as that is that your Idea of a LOVING GOD is. No Scripture shows that Fire is symbolic for purging and purifying Judgements of GOD and for making those who are impure , pure and it takes this Judgment to bring this about in all of us. IMO

I am more convinced then i ever was that Scripture was give to confuse the masses until the time appointed and then all will be brought to light , but some (very few) GOD is revealing his truth at this time for the purpose of serving the rest of man kind latter with Jesus. IMO

peace and lvoe to you and yours brother……………………gene

March 3, 2011 at 9:52 pm#237934

Baker

Participant

Gene! On the Blue letter Bible of KJ I found this about the Soul and the Spirit.

neh'·fesh Soul, life, person, mind, heart, creature, body, himself, yourselves, will, desire, man, themselves, any, appetite.

The Greek.

psü-khā' Soul, life, mind, heart, heartily, not tr

The Hebrew, both the same.
The Spirit is in Greek first and then Hebrew

rü'·akh Spirit or Spirit, wind, breath, side, mind, blast, vain, air, anger, cool, courage, misc

rü'·akh Spirit or Spirit, wind, breath, side, mind, blast, vain, air, anger, cool, courage, misc neh'·fesh

And these are the same in Hebrew and Greek. Most scriptures that I looked up are Spirit.

We have to remember that God created us out of the dust of the earth, and to dust we return. The spirit, which is all of us returns to God. The Soul does not die, it goes back to God. And since God did not say at creation, it is Soul that He breathed into us, but there is also this

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
By this Scripture we see that the Spirit in us is the Soul. I had TO CHANGE MY MIND for right now. I will do some more research on it, since I know how to use translations in Hebrew and Greek.
time will tell…..
Peace Irene

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

March 4, 2011 at 3:13 am#237972

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 03 2011,14:52)

Gene! On the Blue letter Bible of KJ I found this about the Soul and the Spirit.

neh'·fesh Soul, life, person, mind, heart, creature, body, himself, yourselves, will, desire, man, themselves, any, appetite.

The Greek.

psü-khā' Soul, life, mind, heart, heartily,

I will do some more research on it, since I know how to use translations in Hebrew and Greek.

Hi Irene,

YOU GO GIRL! Good research. That extra information will help you to make a more informed decision about any scripture.

peace and love,
mike

March 4, 2011 at 3:15 am#237973

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 03 2011,08:59)

Mike………..MIke good then Don't discourse with me

Fair enough.

March 4, 2011 at 10:59 am#238005