The soul

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 17 2011,08:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,13:01)

You cannot divide the soul FROM the spirit unless they are two different things.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

One cannot kill the body while the soul remains alive unless they are two different things.

So just from two scriptures, we can learn that the spirit is something different than the soul, which is in turn something different than the body.

peace,
mike

Mike! I agree with those Scriptures … But how do you see this Scripture

Pro 11:25 The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself.

Peace Irene

Irene

Pr 11:25 A generous man will prosper;
he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.

Context
NET ©
A generous person 1 will be enriched, 2 and the one who provides water 3 for others 4 will himself be satisfied. 5
NIV ©
A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.
NASB ©
The generous man will be prosperous, And he who waters will himself be watered.
NLT ©
The generous prosper and are satisfied; those who refresh others will themselves be refreshed.
MSG ©
The one who blesses others is abundantly blessed; those who help others are helped.
BBE ©
He who gives blessing will be made fat, but the curser will himself be cursed.
NRSV ©
A generous person will be enriched, and one who gives water will get water.
NKJV ©
The generous soul will be made rich, And he who waters will also be watered himself

PS 64:10 The righteous man will be glad in the LORD and will take refuge in Him;
And all the upright in heart will glory.
PS 73:1 Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
PS 94:15 For judgment will again be righteous,
And all the upright in heart will follow it.
PS 97:11 Light is sown like seed for the righteous
And gladness for the upright in heart.

MT 5:8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
MT 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

sharing Gods message with others and so benefit from their joy,

Pierre

September 16, 2011 at 6:59 pm#258574

GeneBalthrop

Participant

MIke……….Yes and that SOUL is your complete Being your “LIVING SOUL” Not a Separate Soul, separate from you Body as you falsely assume. Man was not a living Soul until the Breath of Life entered his body and then he was a living Soul not before that happened. So if you example of soul is right then it was a dead one not a living one. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene

September 17, 2011 at 2:40 am#258598

Blocked

What “example” Gene? You mean the two SCRIPTURES I quoted directly? Are you asking if the SCRIPTURES I quoted are “right”?

September 17, 2011 at 2:43 am#258599

Blocked

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 16 2011,08:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,13:01)

You cannot divide the soul FROM the spirit unless they are two different things.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

One cannot kill the body while the soul remains alive unless they are two different things.

So just from two scriptures, we can learn that the spirit is something different than the soul, which is in turn something different than the body.

peace,
mike

Mike! I agree with those Scriptures … But how do you see this Scripture

Pro 11:25 The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself.

Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

I haven't looked into the different translations or the Hebrew of this scripture. I see that Pierre has posted many different translations that, at the surface at least, make more sense to me.

But imagine there was a scripture that said, “Your faith has been made fat through Christ.” Does that poetic language mean that “faith” now has to be a physical thing so it can be made fat? I wouldn't think so. I would think it meant that through Christ, our faith had “increased” or “grown”.

peace and love,
mike

September 17, 2011 at 4:29 am#258607

Participant

To Pierre, Mike, Irene, Gene, and anyone else interested,

The Soul is treated as a part a man in Proverbs 11:17

Quote

Proverbs 11
King James Version (KJV)

17The merciful man doeth good to his own soul(Nephesh): but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.

While in Proverbs 11:25 it is treated as the whole man.

Quote

Proverbs 11
King James Version (KJV)

25The liberal soul(Nephesh) shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself.

There is a way of speaking where a part of the whole is treated as the whole. This clearly occurs in Proverbs 11:25, Genises 6:12, and other scriptures.

Quote

Genesis 6:12
King James Version (KJV)

12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

On Sep. 16 2011,21:01 Pierre tries to make that point by an appeal to the authority of the translators of various translations of Proverbs 11:25 but one should be able to discern it for themselves from verses like Genesis 6:12 that are obviously referring to the whole person even though it only speaks of a part of the person.

September 17, 2011 at 1:00 pm#258632

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Kerwin………..I believe the Soul is indeed the complete Person, Spirit is added or retracted into that LIVING Soul, but that Soul can not LIVE without a Body to Live (IN). Take a baby, when it is born it is just a Living Soul with no Knowledge of any Kind it can not walk talk and would simply die if left alone, but it has the capacity to absorb Knowledge, and as it grows it begins to assimilate Knowledge into it's Soul and learns, most of what it learn it receives from the world around it, as John Said “all that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life are from the world “ God can completely destory our Living Souls By simply leaving us in our “PERISHED” STATE when we die, and unless he recreates us a Body and Breathes Life into us and add spirit back into it we would remain dead for ever.

Kerwin remember when Jesus said except you become as a child, you in no ways shall enter into the Kingdom of GOD, Now think about that , How can we become as a little child? Here is my perspective on this Not a doctrine just an observation, it could be Because all spirit (intellect) is removed when we die, and when we are resurrected as a living Soul again we are as a child and as God adds Spirit back into us we are receiving it and learning from it Just as a child does now, Only it is a NEW SPIRIT (intellect) from GOD not the World. Just some observation on my part Kerwin> IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………gene

September 17, 2011 at 1:43 pm#258639

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2011,22:29)

Kerwin, get your butt over here!

In this example, “your butt” actually refers to ALL OF YOU, even though we know a person's backside is only one PART of that person.

In scripture, “soul” is used to refer to the life of a person, the “inner man” of a person, and sometimes even to the whole person. We would be at a loss to know the real meaning behind “soul” if not for later scriptures in the NT, where Jesus and his Apostles made clear the distinction BETWEEN the soul, spirit, body and the whole person – who is made up of all three.

mike

September 17, 2011 at 4:08 pm#258656

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 17 2011,22:29)

To Pierre, Mike, Irene, Gene, and anyone else interested,

The Soul is treated as a part a man in Proverbs 11:17

Quote

Proverbs 11
King James Version (KJV)

17The merciful man doeth good to his own soul(Nephesh): but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.

While in Proverbs 11:25 it is treated as the whole man.

Quote

Proverbs 11
King James Version (KJV)

25The liberal soul(Nephesh) shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself.

There is a way of speaking where a part of the whole is treated as the whole. This clearly occurs in Proverbs 11:25, Genises 6:12, and other scriptures.

Quote

Genesis 6:12
King James Version (KJV)

12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Kerwin

Jesus say flesh count for nothing ;right ;how is that ?

so think ;

is the flesh moves without the will of the soul inside of it ? NO

without the will of the soul there is nothing done ,got it ?

this is why all we think ,we do ,it is our soul will,either good or bad,got it ??

the judgement is for us all but is the flesh judged ? NO ,it is the soul because it is the soul that is US and the soul IS SPIRIT ,not the flesh,

you can not say that the gun that killed is guilty it is the person behind the gun that is ;;got it ??

the flesh is the instrument that God as given for men to be on earth ,but it was not maid known until Christ came and told his disciples and explained it to them ,and so they have explain it to us all in the written letter they have given us trough the holy spirit ;GOT IT???
the flesh can not please God but the spirit can :GOT IT.
all the good fruits are of the spirit ,right ? yes,got it ??
the confusion is when we mix the flesh and the spirit soul together and so do not understand, born again mean to be in the spirit of the soul and not in the flesh ,the flesh count s for nothing ,got it ?

so let the kingdom of God and his son enter your heart and be saved ,God s kingdom is the will of God ,got it ?

because if we do not submit to it we will not be saved ,got it
only God will ,is the true ,and truth ,no other,got it ?

Pierre

September 18, 2011 at 12:37 am#258693

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2011,11:18)

To all,

I see that some seem to be confusing two different non-corporeal elements of a human being because they are each called spirit in scripture at certain times.

In both Hebrew and Greek the non-corporeal is spoken of as the wind. Jesus compares the spirit of God to the wind with these words.

Quote

John 3:8
King James Version (KJV)

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So in understand what spirit a particular passage of scripture is speaking of we should look at the effects of that spirit spoken of in that passage.

Knowing that and reading:

Quote

Galatians 5
King James Version (KJV)

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

:We can see that the spirit spoken of in Galatians 5:22-23 is the character, for love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, and temperance are all the fruit of the character of God.

Now we look at Ecclesiastes and see a different use of the word spirit.

Quote

Ecclesiastes 3:21
King James Version (KJV)

21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

This scripture is not literally stating it is a mystery whether the character of man goes upward and the spirit of a beast goes downward, since the character of God does not leave God and the character that falls short of God’s glory will not ascend to his kingdom.

To see what it means let’s look at:

Quote

2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

:where we find the naked individual clothed in the body.

Another passage to consider is:

Quote

Matthew 10:28
King James Version (KJV)

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

:Which clearly speaks of the bodiless individual as the soul.

So Ecclesiastes is asking who knows if the sprit(non-corporeal soul) of a human being ascends and the spirit(non-corporeal soul) of a beast descends.

I hope this aids you in clearing up the matter.

To Pierre, Mike, Irene, Gene, and anyone else interested,

I am re-posting this in order that you know where I am coming from in my future posts.

September 18, 2011 at 7:11 am#258719

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 17 2011,22:08)

Kerwin

Jesus say flesh count for nothing ;right ;how is that ?

so think ;

is the flesh moves without the will of the soul inside of it ? NO

without the will of the soul there is nothing done ,got it ?

this is why all we think ,we do ,it is our soul will,either good or bad,got it ??

the judgement is for us all but is the flesh judged ? NO ,it is the soul because it is the soul that is US and the soul IS SPIRIT ,not the flesh,

you can not say that the gun that killed is guilty it is the person behind the gun that is ;;got it ??

so let the kingdom of God and his son enter your heart and be saved ,God s kingdom is the will of God ,got it ?

because if we do not submit to it we will not be saved ,got it
only God will ,is the true ,and truth ,no other,got it ?

Pierre

Pierre,

As I pointed out earlier, scripture calls both the character and soul spirit because they are non-corporeal elements of a being. I demonstrated how the context of the use of the word “spirit” can instruct you in which way it is being used.

A spirit (inner man) does have a spirit (character) but that spirit (character) is a servant of sin even when the spirit (inner man) hungers and thirsts for righteousness. That is why Paul speaks of the doomed struggle between his spirit (inner man) and his spirit (character) as his spirit (inner man) strove to conform his spirit (character) to the likeness(righteousness and holiness) of God that occurred before he came to know Jesus as the Anointed. Jesus delivers us from that struggle as he divides the spirit (inner man) from the spirit (character) by giving a new spirit (character) to those that believe. This new spirit (character) is both the food and drink of those who long for God’s kingdom and it is lived according to by the power of God that comes through faith.

Jesus states the flesh counts for nothing because it is with your spirit (character) that you seek God’s righteousness and his kingdom; for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven and neither do the ungodly.

It is the spirit(character) and not the spirit(inner man) that is born anew since it is the spirit(inner man) that is drawn to Christ by his longing for the God’s righteousness and his kingdom and it is God’s spirit(character and creative force) that satisfies that longing by creating a new spirit(character) in the man.

Quote

Proverbs 11
King James Version (KJV)

17The merciful man doeth good to his own soul(Nephesh): but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.

In this passage the man possesses a soul and flesh. They are both spoken of as parts of the whole man. God after all created man by combining both flesh (outer man) and soul (inner man). It is the breath of life that gives life to the man and the soul (inner man) is life.

September 18, 2011 at 7:17 am#258720

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 17 2011,19:43)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2011,22:29)

Kerwin, get your butt over here!

In this example, “your butt” actually refers to ALL OF YOU, even though we know a person's backside is only one PART of that person.

mike

Mike,

I agree as I also have made those points.

I believe that in some cases the word spirit refers to the seat of character of a being while at other times it has other meanings such as being a synonym for soul(inner man).

September 18, 2011 at 7:24 am#258721

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2011,19:00)

Kerwin………..I believe the Soul is indeed the complete Person, Spirit is added or retracted into that LIVING Soul, but that Soul can not LIVE without a Body to Live (IN). Take a baby, when it is born it is just a Living Soul with not Knowledge of any Kind it can not walk talk and would simply die if left alone, but it has the capacity to absorb Knowledge, and as it grows it began to assimilate Knowledge into it's Soul and learns, most of what it learn it receives from the world around it, as John Said “all the is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life are from the world “ God can completely destory our Living Souls By simply leaving us in our “PERISHED” STATE when we die, and unless he recreates us a Body and Breathes Life into us and add spirit back into it we would remain dead for ever.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………gene

Gene,

We seem to be understanding the message from scriptures like Proverbs 11:17, Matthew 10:28, and Genesis 2:7 differently. Perhaps we should seek to come to a common understanding on these before going on.

September 18, 2011 at 9:10 am#258726

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 15 2011,09:33)

t8 All is possible with God…. But reading all again, it goes both ways at times… Some Scriptures plainly state it is the Spirit in man, and other times it is the Soul….Georg believes it is used interchangeably…. Irene

I agree it us used interchangeably too.
Here is one way I reckon it.

We have a spirit/soul that is ours.
God is a Spirit who wants to have fellowship with us in spirit.

This means that our spirit is connected with his Spirit. As it was written by our brother John: “Our spirits bear witness with God's spirit that we are the sons of God”.

So there is our spirit and there is God's spirit. For the purpose of distinction, we call our spirit the soul. Especially needed in verses like, “May your whole body, soul, and spirit”… Sounds better than “May your whole body, spirit, and Spirit…”. You get the idea.

So we are the soul and inside our soul is God's breath/spirit making us a living soul. In the case of eternal life the breath spirit is not given once, but eternally like a river of life flowing from our innermost being. Thus our soul is living and it is housed in the body.

What do you think about that.

September 18, 2011 at 1:27 pm#258751

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All……….understanding what Spirit is it the problem here IMO, Spirit is Not part of a Person or SOUL it is added or subtracted from a Person, Spirit in it simplest meaning is (INTELLECT) and we as “LIVING SOUL” simulate Spirit into us, whether it is from the “World” of From God it makes no difference it will cause us to think and act according to it's influence on us. A child can not speak when it is born it must Learn how even though it has the capacity to learn it must be instructed and taught how to , these SPIRIT INTELLECTS must first be absorb into it before it can act them out. Spirit is not Part of the Soul it resides with the Soul much like if another person lived in you house it would be in you house but not be you but just be dwelling in your house (SOUL) with you. I believe Spirit is not a permanent part of a LIVING SOUL , but Just the complete Body with it's capacity to think makes up the complete Soul and if it is alive it is a LIVING SOUL and if it dies it corrupts and goes back to the dust from which it came and the Spiirt goes back to him who gave it. While a Soul can die a SPIRIT can not die. IMO

To me it is absolutely crucial we all are resurected with new bodies and become a “LIVING SOUL again after death, and spirit added back into US. The biggest problem here is not understanding what Spirit really is as i see it. If you understand that then understanding what a SOUL IS become clear. All Living Animals are living Souls all have a certain capacity to learn things and when they die they parish completely and that includes man. As scripture say ” so dies one, so dies the other”.

Ecc 3:19…..> For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing thing befalles them : as one dies, so dies the other, yea, they have all “ONE BREATH” ; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again . Vers 21…Who knows the spirit of man that goes upward and the spirit of goes downward to the earth?

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honor abides not: he is like the beast that perish.

When we die that is it unless the LORD recreates us another Body and breaths Life back into it and then we will become a LIVING SOUL Again and we can once again absorb Spirit (intellect) into us. God can remove Spirit and give us a NEW SPIRIT when ever he choses to. IMO

September 18, 2011 at 3:20 pm#258770

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2011,01:11)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 17 2011,22:08)

Kerwin

Jesus say flesh count for nothing ;right ;how is that ?

so think ;

is the flesh moves without the will of the soul inside of it ? NO

without the will of the soul there is nothing done ,got it ?

this is why all we think ,we do ,it is our soul will,either good or bad,got it ??

the judgement is for us all but is the flesh judged ? NO ,it is the soul because it is the soul that is US and the soul IS SPIRIT ,not the flesh,

you can not say that the gun that killed is guilty it is the person behind the gun that is ;;got it ??

so let the kingdom of God and his son enter your heart and be saved ,God s kingdom is the will of God ,got it ?

because if we do not submit to it we will not be saved ,got it
only God will ,is the true ,and truth ,no other,got it ?

Pierre

Pierre,

Quote

Proverbs 11
King James Version (KJV)

17The merciful man doeth good to his own soul(Nephesh): but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.

Kerwin

you should look at what you have written it does not make sense,

and it seems you do not understand what I have written ,

the inside man is the soul (spirit ) but the inside man can change,(from good to bad and from bad to good )
the inside man as the character,the will ,the knowledge,the flesh is the vehicle for the soul to act.

the flesh was formed the spirit(soul) was given ,

17The merciful man doeth good(knows what is good for him) to his own soul(Nephesh): but he that is cruel troubleth(expose his own flesh to judgement ) his own flesh

only the soul has a WILL ,but the flesh has NEEDS this is the conflict between them that Paul talks about,

Pierre

September 18, 2011 at 10:35 pm#258782

Proclaimer

Participant

Good point Pierre.

September 18, 2011 at 11:30 pm#258783

Blocked

Wait a minute. I thought t8 and Pierre agreed that spirit, soul, and body were THREE different things. Now it seems as if they think they are only TWO different things, with the spirit BEING the soul.

I stand convinced that they are indeed THREE separate and distinct things.

September 18, 2011 at 11:47 pm#258784