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Quote (Lightenup @ July 13 2010,20:46) Quote (davidbfun @ July 13 2010,20:27) Quote (Lightenup @ July 14 2010,19:16) Hi Davidbfun,
I agree that the Son is the firstborn of all creation which naturally makes Him preeminent. I do believe that the meaning of the 'firstborn' is the first procreative act of the Father…He is the first fruit of the Father (before creation). I do not consider the Son as the first 'creative' act, but the first 'procreative' act. The difference is that a procreative act would carry the same nature of the One which procreated Him, the nature of deity. The created act would not carry the same nature of the One that created him, necessarily. Also, the one procreated in an asexual way from an eternal being would also carry the idea of having always existed in the form of an incorruptible seed not yet 'quickened' to life and separate existence. IMO
Hi Kathi/LU,I agree with your wording concerning create and procreate; with one being the biological act. Since God is not “human” how God goes about “biologically” procreating is unknown, especially as a spirit.
Even though Jesus was “begotten” or procreated doesn't alter the fact that he is the first act of creation because Col 1:16 and John 1:3 says that all things came into being THRU FOR and BY him. Col 1:17 reiterates that he is BEFORE all things. This tells me that he is our Creator (but not our God whom he came FROM).
True again that Jesus is the first procreative act of God as God said that he was the ONLY begotten son of God…and firstborn.
It is interesting to see that the female essence of God is ignored when people respond…and only the Father aspect is addressed. i.e. asexual reproduction (ignoring female essence).
Elohim = female (root) male (ending, plural)
And we are created in God's image, male and female. If we are in God's likeness and we multiply thru the female of the species, why would God be different than what God created us to be?
Kathi you make a good point: Obviously the son of God is “god-natured” just as the son of Man is human-natured.
Being the son of God doesn't make him God whom he came from, nor does it make him exist at the same time God existed even though he came out from the “sperm” that has always existed in God.
You have a lot of deep thoughts:
If “time” is a property for humans and does not apply to God then any discussion regarding “eternity” would be mute because God has always existed.
Nevertheless, since creation has a beginning point and Jesus is the firstborn of all CREATION, he is the BEGINNING. And from that point onward begins “time” AND eternity. That is why the Bible also says that IN Jesus is ETERNAL LIFE (as that is one characteristic or component of Jesus) and The Eternal Life was WITH God. It is not something “EXTRA” that we get when we believe in him….but when we receive him we also receive the eternal life that is part of him.
David
Hi David,
Thanks for responding.you said:
Quote It is interesting to see that the female essence of God is ignored when people respond…and only the Father aspect is addressed. i.e. asexual reproduction (ignoring female essence). Asexual reproduction isn't about whether the parent is a father or a mother, it is merely a way of reproducing without the act of sex. Do you really think that a God and a Godess had sex to beget a Son?
The Son never refers to the Holy Spirit as a 'Mother' so why would we refer to the Holy Spirit as a 'Mother?
When do you think that the Son was begotten before creation?
Hi David,
I am interested in your response to this quoted post of mine. I think that you are making a doctrine out of the gender of Hebrew words. I recently saw that womb as one Hebrew word is masculine and another Hebrew word is feminine. As I looked at the verses with the masculine 'womb' and saw that it was used of women, I disregarded the importance of the gender of a word. I do not think we can make a doctrine around the gender of a word, Hebrew or Greek. We need to look at context. No where does Jesus speak of the Holy Spirit as His Mother…no where! It is not that I am opposed to the idea, I just do not think you have scriptural context to back up your idea.I do appreciate that you have given up your chauvinistic ways (as you say) and can see that God can produce an offspring.
God bless!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2010,09:09) Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2010,15:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 07 2010,10:22) LU………..Nick is not wrong , Like us Jesus had a Physical Berth and a Heavenly Berth, One took place when He was Born through the women Mary , the other was at the Jordan when he recieved the Holy Spirit and was then sent into the world to preach the Gospel of the kingdom of God. People try to make a big deal out of his earthly birth as a preexisting morphed being, which is simply a lie. God had before said through Isiah, what His appearance would be like. Isa 53:1……> Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2> For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground;he has not form nor comeliness and when we shall see him there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3> He is despised and rejected of men; a (MAN) of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
God the Father Had to create His Genetic Code to match the description he gave of Him. But as Mike brought out that was not a problem for GOD to do , so why does everyone think it is such a big deal for God to do that. Adam and Eves creation was far greater then adding DNA to Mary and having her give birth to a Man Child. Jesus was (NOT) a preexistent Being , he was 100% Pure prophesied foreordained Human being in (EVERY) Way and was not a Son of GOD not more the ADAM was, UNTIL he was baptized at the JORDAN River, Nick is absolutely right on this. IMO
peace and Love to you and yours………………………gene
Hi Gene,
I know that you believe this but you have never seemed to own up to the fact that the Son was actively involved in creation and Nick or you have never owed up to the fact that the Son is the root of David as well as the offspring of David.Remember I have shown you that the verbs regarding creation and the Son's involvement were written in the active voice and not passive voice in the Greek?
Also, Jesus is never mentioned as being born again at the Jordan.
Thanks for adding your thoughts though.
LU…………..If Jesus was the creator then why did GOD say He did it and did it (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) seem you have a contradictory view from what God said about himself. Do you just ignore these scriptures , He said . You shall have (NO) other God besides Me , and again, I look for another God and there was none no not One. and even Jesus' own word, “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and His quote of scripture that says Hear O ISREAL THE LORD OUR (that included his) GOD IS (ONE) GOD. Not two or three essences of Gods.All who preach the Triune GOD and Preexistence have much forced the text to conform to the dogmas of the apostate churches. Many go into all these side shows to prove their points , but what i have posted are straight forward scriptures you people never seem to truly deal with, I thing these scripture should be addressed before we shoot of on all kind of directions.
That is why I have over and over stated the same Scriptures because trinitarians and Preexistences have Honestly dealt with them here. Ignoring them seems to be the best approach they can come up with, all the while acting like they have addressed these simple straight forward point , but in truth they have not.
peace and love…………………..gene
Hi Gene,
Because you say “if” Jesus was the creator, you ignore several NT passages that clearly state that all things were made by Him (the Son).Do you understand progressive revelation? The NT reveals more about God than the OT. Let it.
If there is one that is God and one that is God of God and together they are one, why do you wrestle so? The Son is not the one true God, He is the one true God of God. We call Him 'Lord' and we accept Him as Lord of our lives. No other so called gods are truly 'of' God in the manner that the only begotten son is.
In the OT, God speaks of creating alone and that is how He chose to present Himself to the nation of Israel but He says He created with an outstretched arm.
Jer 27:5
5 “I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight.
NASUI see the 'outstretched arm' as the Son of God who is yet to be revealed. Think about it, if you wanted to give credit to someone without revealing details about them, calling them your 'outstretched arm' would be one way of doing that. God planned to reveal His Son as He saw fit.
17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
When Jesus admitted to being the 'Son of God,' the Pharisees did not believe. Who told Paul that by the Firstborn of all creation all things were created…it was the Spirit of the Father…the same Spirit that inspired the writers of the Bible and the same Spirit that told Simon Barjona.
Jesus was 100% root of David and 100% offspring of David
Revelation 22:16 NASB
16″I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
Gene, you seem to only confess the descendant of David and ignore the root of David. Is it too much for God to have a Son who is 100% both? Is it because there is no other being that can make that claim and so it is unintelligible to you? You are ignoring this, you know.
God bless you Gene,
KathiHi LU,
The Spirit of Christ was before David and gave him his abilities and authority.
Now the Son of David, Jesus, has descended from him.Nick and Gene,
A plan of a future being does not actively give anything. The Spirit of Christ was a being and not a plan of a being who gave David his beginning. A root is not a plan of a plant but the living foundation of a plant.Nick and Gene,
The Son of God is the root of David, David is the stem, and the Son of Man is the offspring of David. Jesus is both the Son of God and the Son of Man. He is both 100% root and 100% offspring. 100% God of God, 100% man of man.
In human terms, my parents are my root but not my offspring. The Son of God is both, the root as creator (by Him all things were created, Col.1) and the offspring as He became also the Son of Man.
Hi LU,
Jesus was not anointed with the Spirit till the Jordan.
Now that he has died and been raised the Lord is the Spirit.In the days of his flesh he offered up supplications with loud crying and tears to the one able to save him from death and he was heard because of his piety.
Though he was a son he learned obedience from the things which he suffered
[Heb5]We no longer speak of him according to the flesh.[2cor5]
A descendant of David according to the flesh who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead according to the Spirit of holiness.[Rom1]
Know the flesh man from the Spirit of Christ
Quote (JustAskin @ July 15 2010,10:28) David, You speak well for the most part.
You speak of Macro and Micro.
If you say to a innerCity child, 'Where does your breakfast eggs come from', what will that child say?
“From the Supermarket, of course”,
And, indeed it very often does…to their end.However, as an adult, you know that that is not the end, but the beginning of the 'reverse chain of events' that led to that egg being in the Supermarket.
Now, try explaining in Macro, or Micro, to the child.
What happens,… they don't want to know, can't understand, disgusted that it comes out of a hen's bottom, that 'you' just killed a Chick, a lovely fluffy yellow ball-like creature with two stalky little legs with life that the 'mother hen'(?) went to all that trouble of growing inside her for so long…
They vow never to eat another egg.
Then ask them where their Chicken 'Hot Wings' from McDonalds comes from…or the Fish meal, or the Pork luncheon sandwich meat or that tastey Beefburger.
The revelation of truth is often disasteful to those of limited, childish (Not Child-like) minds.
They seek the 'safe path', the 'Broad Road' the 'Macro' Road, the way that means least thought on the matter, the well trodden route with the support of many who can carry them and keep them shielded from the briers, the thorns at the edges that prevent, and deter, them seeing the true road.
And crossing over onto it.
JustAskin has no fear of briers and crosses over onto the broad road to encourage a few to come across, bear the pain of the briers for a liitle while for the Truth will heal the wounds and soften the pain.
David, you are new here. Check through the posts and look for the truth in each posts.
JustAskin condemns only the gainsayers and upholds the truth seekers. Condemn…only as far as making the stated fact. If the person turns, how would JustAskin face them.
No, only 'Admonishment'. It is God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Testimony of Christ and the Scriptures and themselves, that ultimately, Condemns them.
Does JustAskin boast in the Holy Spirit? Yes. In the Holy Spirit, not of the Holy Spirit.
Who are my condemners? Is it not those who do not have the Holy Spirit?
Why?
Because the Spirit of God does not Condemn those who it upholds, else it would be condemning it's own…and only Satan owns that privilege.A mistake, an error, a moment of ignorance, in downplaying a 'Spirited given' revelation is forgiven.
But that one must first come to the realisation of the mistake, error, ignorance, admit it and 'take it back, repent', then the error is cleared.
JustAskin does not need others to agree with him.
JustAskin's mind is clear.
However, it is good, none the less, to find supporters and call them '[Begotten] Brother' and '[Begotten] Sister'.
And as for God and Gender…what of it. JustAskin has no problem here because to me that is a non-discussional point.
But to state only, as JustAskin has stated before, God made Adam as a complete human.
He made eve from Adam after Adam found no animal to be worthy of being a companion. Eve was taken from Adam and called 'Woman', or 'Wombed Man'.
The traits of Woman are taken out of the original man and made into a separate man such that it requires the TWO to come together in union to 'reform' one 'flesh', the metaphorical 'Adam' two persons as one, in the eyes of God, and man.
That is why God abhors Divorce. That is why a man who joins in union with a woman becomes his 'wife', in the eyes of God.
All this, only because of carnal man. A Spirit requires no such separation of traits. Conception, impregnation, birth…are not of the Spirit but of the flesh.
Spirits require no gender. Is there a reference to s female angel?
Wisdom, is spoken of as a female. Why?
Because the scripture writer wrote with a the aim of making his reader 'feel' the trait of wisdom, that it is gentle, understanding, loving, nuturing, etc, and aligned it to what his audience would 'feel'.
That these are like a good ' woman', a motherlike person. Something that makes you want to seek comfort in.
And that is why Solomon chose it of all the things that he could have asked God for. Solomon was but a very young man when he asceeded to his father's throne.
As Scripture says, he was surrounded by battlehardened warriors, devisive, incisive, decisive, councillors who were greater than even what his father taught him.
Where better to go to seek succour in such an environment than in a 'motherlike' restitude, and Wisdom came into it's own and to it's own for Solomon was 'Wise' to make that choice by his own free will. And God blessed him even more for that.
So 'gender' in the spirit realm. What of it?
And, are we not all 'Spirits in a material world'… Bet that would make a great title for a song. Try it but it could be a Sting! And you wouldn't want the Police to arrest you.
JA thanks for the compliment of speaking well. It has been hard because for the last 11 months I haven't been speaking English to anyone (as I am living in a small town in Colombia, South America) and I am having to relearn how to use it.You and LU/Kathi brought up the concerns over gender. Truly God is not human and has no gender as we know it.
The Bible says God is spirit. Jn 4:24 (NASB) “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
I only try to distinguish the truth concerning God and gender is one point that God makes, not me. Gen 1:27.
So apparently gender must be important (to God) for man to be created in God's image….and God wants us to know from whence we came.
You said:
The revelation of truth is often disasteful to those of limited, childish (Not Child-like) minds.
It appears talking about Elohim is distasteful as you were not the only one disliking me referring to gender. However, your mind is far from childish.
You also said:
JustAskin condemns only the gainsayers and upholds the truth seekers. Condemn…only as far as making the stated fact. AND
No, only 'Admonishment'. It is God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Testimony of Christ and the Scriptures and themselves, that ultimately, Condemns them.
I try to find the truth and good in a person's statement and a I try to correct only when it is an “error” or misguiding facts.
Adam was ONE complete man with two ribs from which came Eve and yes reunited they became ONE flesh. But for some reason God felt it necessary that he had someone to commune with….creation wasn't sufficient. However, MAN(kind) was incomplete without woman.
I guess homosexuals say the same thing “gender” doesn't matter. lol But there is a pupose for all things. And it is important to know that ONE God (Elohim) consists of the TWO genders (essences) male AND female.
I did a poll and 70% of the people thought that God was only male and the Father and He gave birth to Jesus.
Wisdom is one of the 7 spirits within the Holy Spirit and should be correctly reflected as a feminine noun. However, all of the other things you said are true, too.
I, too, haven't found any angels to be female.
Could be why in Gen 6 we have the creation of the Nephilim; angels and women begetting children.
Thus far I am not living in the
spirit realm so I must address the gender issue and the composition of God.I have read many posts here and unfortunately there is not a predominance of “truth” in them.
i.e.
Jesus is God
Jesus is the Holy Spirit
Jesus is God, the Father.
Jesus is Melchizedek.
God is male only.
Holy Spirit is conscience or knowledge.
Holy Spirit is “It” and was proven thru GREEK words.
One thread's title is “The Lord is the spirit”
someone even said that Jesus was Satan….My responses are usually in regards to who God is and who Jesus is because our common salvation revolves around these concepts.
Isn't it good to know the difference between our God and our Creator? And the “Spirit in the sky”?
Why do people feel comfortable calling something that is a feminine noun “He” or “It”? And then say that gender doesn't mean anything. Or if it doesn't mean anything to them or isn't important then they are really dissing God and who God is.
Funny how Jesus says not to “dis his Mother” as this is the only unpardonable sin. Don't you see the humor? Jesus says you can talk bad about me and about my Father and anybody else but not against WHOM? The Holy Spirit. Mt 12.31
Throughout the past two centuries in America the female of the species was given a backseat in almost all things. She was the mother of David, the wife of Ronald, the daughter of Thomas and seldom was known simply as Virginia. She was behind every successful man. The man got the glory but the woman got the results.
The Bible does the same thing…..Holy Spirit = comforter, counselor, helper, spirit of God, God's Spirit, etc (no name).
So, by saying, “What of it?” I must be able to give a response and can't dismiss (diss) the Holy Spirit with No Name.
Great puns and songs at the end, too. lol
David
David,
Jesus Himself does not call the Holy Spirit 'Mother.' Are you discrediting Him as you discredit others that don't refer to the Holy Spirit as the Mother? If He doesn't give the Holy Spirit the honor of the title 'Mother,' isn't that a good enough reason for us to not call the Holy Spirit 'Mother' also? Please address this point. ThanksKathi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2010,13:45) Hi LU,
Jesus was not anointed with the Spirit till the Jordan.
Now that he has died and been raised the Lord is the Spirit.In the days of his flesh he offered up supplications with loud crying and tears to the one able to save him from death and he was heard because of his piety.
Though he was a son he learned obedience from the things which he suffered
[Heb5]We no longer speak of him according to the flesh.[2cor5]
A descendant of David according to the flesh who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead according to the Spirit of holiness.[Rom1]
Know the flesh man from the Spirit of Christ
Nick,
The resurrection gave the Son of God proof to others of who He always was in the first place and also the power to fulfill His position of being the Son of God.Hi LU,
It certainly proven by the fulfillment of Scripture that he was the promised Son of God.
But he was powerless till reborn from above at the Jordan.
We can follow such a man.David,
You almost made me 'like' you again but then – like last time – you go and blow it. Are you actually a female posting as if a male?
Until you came along – every female in this forum accepted the status quo- or rather – it was never an issue.
The “Don't dis the Holy Spirit” is nothing to do with Gender otherwise why are Human Mothers not in the same category – Jesus snapped at HIS Earth Mother “Woman! My time is not yet” and also, while hanging on the Cross, referred to his mother in reference to John: “Woman, behold thy [begotten] Son (John)”
In the garden of Eden, it was EVE who first sinned but sin is said to have come into the world through Adam. God punished Eve by multiplying her birth pains and made her subordinate to her Husband.
Are you going to argue with God about that, too?
The Holy spirit has no name (Ha – bring this on!! Worshipping Jesus tried to tackle me on this – Please – don't even bother, yet you will because you need to know)
Ok, What is the name of YOUR Spirit? There – the beginning and the end – answer that and you have the answer to the name of the holy Spirit)Yes, “What of it”. I do dismiss your conjecture – misjecture – As of now I will not engage (who invited me in the first place) on this theme as there is no basis for any kind of Scriptural development of it.
I suggest you also drop it – You picked it up from somewhere and made it your own PERSONAL Pursuit… well, Continue to Personally Pursue it if you MUST but JustAskins' advice (and advice only!) is to drop it and draw a line under it.
You say you have been through the posts and can find no “predominance of Truth”.
What is Truth – and how do you know when you see it …Ha!:
“Truth is what you want to see, do you hear me!” said the blind man to the deaf donkey!This is what I believe:
God is one. “God” is a “Title” for the ONE Supreme Being in a system of things. The Ultimate system of things is that which contains our existence. many things and persons can be called “god” (Note Caps or not – Capital is just for emphasise and ease of reading to distinquish one pointed statement of the Almighty ONE God as to all other “so called gods”.
This ONE God give us His name as “YHVH” in Hebrew – meaning “I AM” (Or some say “I Will Be” – I prefer “I AM”) In English we translate it as Jehovah, YahVeh or Yehovah. God describes Himself with the most beautiful and all powerful of all descriptions “I AM THAT I AM” – “I AM” for short. It means He Was, He Is, and He will Always BE, A constant, never changing – from us: “He IS”, He just “IS”. From Him: “I AM”.This ONE ALMIGHTY God devised a new creation, a physical world, from out of the Spirit World, of which HE is ALL, everything.
He created his plan and his workforce from among Spirit being of which one (who came to be called 'Jesus') was the Chief Architect, and Builder. And many others helped, chief among them is the one who came to be called “Satan”.The world was created and living sentient beings of all sorts were created – And then Man was created – a special “Crowning creation” made in the likeness of God himself (Likeness/Image – not physical – God deals with Spiritual – ditch physical…! Image of – The things God can do, that God IS; Holy, Intelligent, Loving, creative, Powerful, has authority.etc. ) God put these in Mankind to rule in a PHYSICAL world – a limited world – much like we create Avatars in a Computer world
and even 'give them life' – after all – we are gods. Just think so much life the avatars will be creating their own life in a micro world….!)And the Holy Spirit -The HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD Himself. His ACTIVE FORCE , the Driver for his actions , the enabler , the actioner, the doer and much more.
oh… not now…Enough – Chat later.
I have not responded to all of your points as i have other ting to do and not all are relevant but if there is any that you want me to go over – Just Say.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2010,07:49) Hi LU,
The Spirit of Christ creates.[Ps104]
The Spirit of Christ is The Word of God.Hi Kathi,
Jesus was face to face with his physical mother Mary and what did he call her but “Woman” (John 2.4) so does that mean that we can not call Mary his mother?
In another instance he didn't recognize her presence but said, “Who is my mother…” (Mt 12.46+; Mk 3)
In Lu 2:48-9 Look at his response to her direct questioning of her being anxious and worrying: And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?”
He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical).
I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
Quote (davidbfun @ July 15 2010,10:40) He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical). I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
Hi David,Did you know that early LXX fragments have been found in which YHVH is actually written in Hebrew in the midst of the Greek translation of the OT? How can you say Jesus never said the divine name? Just because scribes later changed the YHVH's to Adonai's doesn't mean YHVH wasn't there when Jesus read the scrolls in the synagogue. After all, he does tell his Father that he made His name known, right?
And I don't even want to indulge in your “the Holy Spirit is a chick” doctrine. You can have that one all to yourself, brother.
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ July 14 2010,18:40) Hi Kathi, Jesus was face to face with his physical mother Mary and what did he call her but “Woman” (John 2.4) so does that mean that we can not call Mary his mother?
In another instance he didn't recognize her presence but said, “Who is my mother…” (Mt 12.46+; Mk 3)
In Lu 2:48-9 Look at his response to her direct questioning of her being anxious and worrying: And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?”
He did not call God his Father YHVH either so what does this mean? Everybody else on this site says this is the name of God so why didn't he use it (rhetorical).
I still call the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, but I recognize that SHE is probably the one who bore Jesus, NOT God the Father. And if she bore Jesus what would you call her? Mother!
David
David,
Are you really contending that Mary was not the 'mother' of Jesus but instead the 'woman' of Jesus. Truly I do not think that you doubt that Mary, who gave birth to Jesus was as someone other than His mother. Why do you act like Jesus didn't ever call her mother?Are you insinuating that a goddess came upon Mary to conceive. I think you are trying too hard here. I'm done with this goddess holy spirit essence that you can not find in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is 'of' the Father not with the Father.
Maybe I will discuss another topic with you but I don't buy your take on this one…sorry.
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