The Second Death

[SEEKING]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2009,12:19)

John 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, ” Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” John 1:38 And Jesus turned and saw them following, and said to them, “What do you seek?” They said to Him, ” Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?” Matthew 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Neh.8:8 8 They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people could understand what was being read.

AC 8:30-31 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Eph.4:11-12 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,  to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

!Tim.3:2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food

Jam.3:1 AS 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly

Here are commentator John Gill's comments from his Commentary on The Whole Bible on 1Jn.2:27 –

and ye need not that any man teach you; not that they were perfect in knowledge, for no man is absolutely, only comparatively so, in this life; or that they needed not, and were above and exempt from the instructions of Christ's faithful servants; for John himself taught them, and to teach and instruct them was the end of his writing this epistle to them;

But you knew that, didn't you!  And you ask Thinker this
question –

Quote

Surely you would not offer that we build on the foundation of one possible meaning of a word in scripture??

Surely you would not build on the foundation  of a few passages, and that of debateable interpretation, to preclude teaching would you??

In each passage you cite, what is taking place, TEACHING

Again, have it your way.

Seeking

[NickHassan]

Hi S,
Indeed God has appointed teachers.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:29
All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

Ephesians 4:11
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

But those teachers are only revealers of what is already written.
They serve Jesus Christ, the teacher.

[Cindy]

Seeking

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

They are all the same overcomers, they are all the ones you see standing before the throne.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

They did not save their life by worshiping the Roman emperor, the beast, nor did they worship the image, Antichrist/the pope. They died for their faith; their reward will be a new nature, a spirit body at their resurrection, the first resurrection.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is how they have over come the second death, as spirit beings they no longer have to fear death. All others on this earth will have pass the test of obedience after the 1000 years are up, and Satan will be loosed out of his prison.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
You say
“This is how they have over come the second death, as spirit beings they no longer have to fear death. All others on this earth will have pass the test of obedience after the 1000 years are up, and Satan will be loosed out of his prison.”

True but there will only be alive those nations who survived the great tribulation, and all other natural men will still be in their graves awaiting the second resurrection to face judgement and the possibility of the second death.

[SEEKING]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 12 2009,17:09)

Seeking The ones that have conquered are the saints, those who come up in the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. All humans living at the end of the millennium, are still subject to deception. Remember that Satan will be loosed at the end of the 1000 years. Avoiding the second death is, not being deceived by Satan at the end of the 1000 years. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. As you can see, there could be millions that fall for Satan's deceptions. Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. The second death, eternal death. Georg

Georg,

Thank You!!!!  I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw it that way.

And thank you for responding with answers and not questions.

Blessings,

Seeking

[SEEKING]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2009,14:24)

Nick,

This is your second flip flop of the day.

You began the discussion about teaching with this statement:

none are teachers but the Word and the Spirit of Christ are.

Now you are here:

Indeed God has appointed teachers.

Then you cite passages, most if not all of which I posted previously in this discussion, to substantiate that there are teachers God has appointed.

Closing, you state – ” But those teachers are only revealers of what is already written.They serve Jesus Christ, the teacher.”

Yes and that is whom we serve and teach on behalf of just as the “Great Commission” as it is called directed.

So why from here “none are teachers ” to here ” Indeed God has appointed teachers”?

Seeking

[NickHassan]

Hi S,
Make room for God's bigger ways.
God's wisdom often speaks tongue in cheek confounding human language.

No teacher compares with Jesus who had the depths of the Spirit of God to draw on. He told us that he would send that Spirit and that the Spirit does not speak on His own initiative. So the teachers in his body only expound what he has already taught and unlike him cannot come out with any truly new revelation. In fact we are told that those who do not stay within his teachings are not in fellowship with him or His Father.[2jn].

So we must not immediately react according to our simple carnal thoughts but ponder his words that revelation may come.

He said those who are not with him are against him.
Then he said those who are not against him are with him.

Superficially these statements are in conflict.

However if you think about it the first was said to his brothers who must be united to be effective.
The second was to the world and if those of the world do not resist actually assist the kingdom.

[SEEKING]

nick wrote:

[/quote]
This rhetoric does not answer the question.  But I have come to expect that.

Further you observe –

He said those who are not with him are against him.
Then he said those who are not against him are with him.

Superficially these statements are in conflict.

However if you think about it the first was said to his brothers who must be united to be effective.
The second was to the world and if those of the world do not resist actually assist the kingdom.

Here are the texts in several renderings –

Mat 12:30 KJV He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luk 11:23 KJV He that is not with me is against me:and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Mat 12:30 ESV Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Luk 11:23 ESV Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

LK 11:23 NIV “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.”

MT 12:30 NIV “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters

I so no conflict whatsoever. Then you state, “However if you think about it the first was said to his brothers who must be united to be effective.The second was to the world and if those of the world do not resist actually assist the kingdom.”

Nick, actually, both statements were made to the Pharisees. The kind of esoteric conjecture you made makes for false teaching. You state, So the teachers in his body only expound what he has already taught and unlike him cannot come out with any truly new revelation. Where are you with this teaching?

Seeking

[NickHassan]

Hi S,

No
You forget Mk9
Mark 9:40

40″For he who is not against us is for us.

And no, he said it to his disciples,

Mk9
” 35Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.”

[NickHassan]

Hi S,
So there are two different matters here.
I showed you them and you rushed to judgement.
Why would you be so quick to label someone false who shows you scripture?

[SEEKING]

nick wrote:

[/quote]
Nick, here is your tie together –

He said those who are not with him are against him.

if you think about it the first was said to his brothers who must be united to be effective.

And here is one of the texts –

Mat 12:30 KJV He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

That statement is not made to his brothers it is made to the Pharisees.

Next we have – Then he said those who are not against him are with him.

The second was to the world and if those of the world do not resist actually assist the kingdom.

That statement was not made to the world  it is made to the disciples.

I hadn't forgotten it I didn't post it because of the breakdown in logic.  Here it is:

Mar 9:38-40 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.”  But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me.  For the one who is not against us is for us.

Talking to the disciples he said, in todays vernacular,  even if he is in another church preaching in my name and doing miracles in my name,  he is on our side.

I see in your second post with the “NO” response you got who Jesus was speaking to in the second passage write.  Disciples,
not the world.  Could it be somethiing was twisted in your first post regarding this?

Seeking

[NickHassan]

HI S,
So you were wrong.
Thanks.

[SEEKING]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2009,19:52)

HI S, So you were wrong. Thanks.

Nick,

No, you were!  Finally you got right in your second post who was talking to whom.

As I said, this is your day for flip flops.  Remeber your statements – “there are no teachers”  oops “
there are teachers.”

You still haven't answered to that, but doubt you will,
for again YOU WERE WRONG.

I must confess circumlocution tires me, so I will move on.

It has been interesting and revealing.

Thanks.

Seeking

[NickHassan]

Hi S,
As soon as you address these verses I offered

John 3:2
this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, ” Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

John 1:38
And Jesus turned and saw them following, and said to them, “What do you seek?” They said to Him, ” Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?”

Matthew 23:8
“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

[NickHassan]

Hi S,
you were wrong in that you did not address at all Mk9 which was alluded to in my post.
You were wrong to judge me as a false teacher while lacking the evidence of Mk9
You were wrong to judge a servant who was defending the veracity of the Word

[NickHassan]

Hi S,

Mk9
Mar 9:38-40 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us.

You offer as an understanding of Mk 9

“Talking to the disciples he said, in todays vernacular, even if he is in another church preaching in my name and doing miracles in my name, he is on our side.”

There is only one church and that is the Body of Christ.
Rather what Jesus also said must be taken into account.

Mt7
21″Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22″Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23″And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

[Cindy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2009,05:48)

Hi georg, You say “”locusts”, coming out of the cloud, “mushroom cloud”. It's all in my article.” Rev 9 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke [2586]out of the pit, as the smoke[2586] of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke [2586]of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke [2586] locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 2586 Transliteration: kapnos {kap-nos'} Word Origin: of uncertain affinity Part of Speech: noun masculine Usage in the KJV: smoke 13 Total: 13 Definition: smoke Should we put too much faith in your article?

No Nick, just read it, and you wont have to ask silly questions.

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
We have and we showed you the holes in it put you still offer it?

[NickHassan]

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 14 2009,14:14)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2009,19:52) HI S, So you were wrong. Thanks. Nick, No, you were!  Finally you got right in your second post who was talking to whom. As I said, this is your day for flip flops.  Remeber your statements – “there are no teachers”  oops “ there are teachers.” You still haven't answered to that, but doubt you will, for again YOU WERE WRONG. I must confess circumlocution tires me, so I will move on. It has been interesting and revealing. Thanks. Seeking

Hi S,

You say that I said

“there are no teachers” oops “
there are teachers”

The Word is so subtle that we can miss the finer points.

Scripture says there are teachers but Jesus said to call no man TEACHER because none surpass him or can teach beyond his words.

[SEEKING]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2009,20:54)

Nick,

Your comment -” you were wrong in that you did not address at all Mk9 which was alluded to in my post.”

I plainly explained why I didn't address your error –

I hadn't forgotten it I didn't post it because of the breakdown in logic. Here it is:

Mar 9:38-40 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us.

You wrongly attributed the statement as made to the world – That statement was not made to the world it is made to the disciples.

Your comment – “You were wrong to judge me as a false teacher while lacking the evidence of Mk9”

It goes far beyond that. You have taught a mixed hodge podge of “there are teachers – there are not.” “We don't strive – we do strive.” God is not the author of confusion, the word states. You author confusion which is false and not true to the word.

Finally yoou state – “You were wrong to judge a servant who was defending the veracity of the Word.”

It is your own veracity you are attempting to defend and not the veracity of the word or you would not evade clarification of your flip flopping errors. Your veracity comes into question because you speak in contradictions.

Seeking

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