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Georg… Greetings!
As you say, “the Holy Spirit was not given until after Christ ascended into heaven.” This fact was recorded for us in Acts chapter 2. But consider this point: Was Pentecost the only time Holy Spirit was active throughout human existence?
Jeroboam’s entire family was cursed because of his sins against God. That point was made very clear:
1 Kings 14:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)
“…you also have done more evil than all who were before you, and have gone and made for yourself other gods and molten images to provoke Me to anger, and have cast Me behind your back– therefore behold, I am bringing calamity on the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam every male person, both bond and free in Israel, and I will make a clean sweep of the house of Jeroboam, as one sweeps away dung until it is all gone. Anyone belonging to Jeroboam who dies in the city the dogs will eat. And he who dies in the field the birds of the heavens will eat; for the LORD has spoken it.” (see the connection between this passage and Revelation 19:17-18)1 Kings 13:34 (New American Standard Bible)
“This event became sin to the house of Jeroboam, even to blot it out and destroy it from off the face of the earth.”The only exception to the entire destruction of his family was “the child” mentioned as follows:
1 Kings 14:12-13 (New American Standard Bible)
“Now you, arise, go to your house. When your feet enter the city the child will die. All Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he alone of Jeroboam's family will come to the grave, because in him something good was found toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.”The evidence presented within these verses suggests strongly that not all mankind would be resurrected back to life during the millennium reign of Christ Jesus and the Faithful. To consider otherwise would be to say that Judas Iscariot, Ananias and Sapphira, would also return in the resurrection. (Acts Chapter 5) But what did Jesus say about Judas:
John 17:12 (New American Standard Bible)
“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.”Even the Apostle Jude alludes that there are those that have already experienced the “second death” even though they were still alive when he made this statement:
Jude 1:12 (King James Version)
“These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots… .”Jude also made this “second death” connection in another comment:
Jude 1:7 (Darby Translation)
“…as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire.” (see also Revelation 21:8)Do not be fooled into taking the word “example” as being limited to a temporary condition as many do. One of the definitions given for that word also means precedent, a set procedure that would be followed thereafter.
I leave the following for your consideration. God Bless!
Georg… Greetings!
Many Bible Students seem to be confused regarding what the “breath of life” is in reality. If we return to the first mention of its activity, we can better understand by considering what it accomplished.
Genesis 2:7 (Darby Translation)
“And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.”If we can acknowledge that “the dust of the ground” was lifeless to begin with, that there was no “soul” at this point, what did the “breath of life” accomplish? Once the inanimate “dust of the ground” received “the breath of life,” only then did it become “a living soul.”
The easiest way to picture this process is to compare it with something familiar to us: boosting a car battery. To begin with, the battery is dead; it cannot activate the starter because it contains no life. To get things going, we boost the battery with an electric charge which, in turn, now becomes alive and able to turn the starter.
The “breath of life” was the boost to activate Adam. Withdraw the charge… short circuit the battery… and the battery will die.
The “breath of life,” however, is not a life force in itself, no more than a booster power source is. It seems obvious that the “breath of life” or the “spirit” that sparked life into Adam, has more to do with electricity than anything else; and seeing that the human body runs on electro/chemical forces, this analogy seems acceptable.
So where does this leave the dead? In the tombs or graves awaiting a resurrection. Their bodies decay and return to dust as the Scriptures declare. But the “person” that body represented remains in the Creator’s memory to be re-created at the time of the resurrection.
Do give this your consideration. God bless!
meerkat
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
The spirit that goes back to God at our death, is his Holy Spirit that he gave us; the Holy Spirit does not dwell in a dead corpse.
Is. 42:5, God created the earth, and he gave the breath of life to the people on it, and don't you claim to have received the Holy Spirit. There is another way to look at this, Paul says there is a spirit in man, that is our mind, not an immortal soul. God gives us his Holy Spirit, so that we can understand the things of God; that spirit goes back to God who gave it.
I am surprised to hear you say, you don't believe in two resurrection, the Bible is very clear on that, Rev. 20:5. The Bible calls this the first resurrection, because the saints will be resurrected before any one else, therefore it is commonly referred to as the second resurrection. And, yes, only the saints will be resurrected with a new nature/body, spirit.Georg
Samual
In part I already answered you in my reply to meerkat.
Jeroboam was punished by God, and so were Sodom and Gomorrah; but none had committed the unpardonable sin, because of what Jesus said.Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Most people make the mistake and think that, judgment, means sentencing and condemning; only in part is that true. Before any sentencing comes a trial, it is during this trial period, after the resurrection, that every one will have a chance to listen to the truth, and obeying God's command, and in so doing, have their name written into the book of life; those who fail are condemned.
Judas may be one who is already condemned because of what Peter said.2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.To many of us think, we already have it made. How many of us really understand the truth? are all of us wright in what we believe? Why are there so many denominations? And consider what Jesus said.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.If God considers these people as workers of lawlessness; what makes us feel so sure of our reward?
Georg
Hi georg,
You say
“The spirit that goes back to God at our death, is his Holy Spirit that he gave us; the Holy Spirit does not dwell in a dead corpse.”Scripture says of ALL men
ECC 12
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.One thing that is certain is that ALL MEN are not blessed of the Spirit of God.
Hi Georg,
Do you think the Spirit abandons the sons of the Resurrection?\Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.Rom8
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Nick
Against my better judgment will I respond to you.
You question what I said about the spirit, what spirit goes back to God; but you leave open what spirit you are talking about. God's Holy Spirit? or the spirit in man? and what is the spirit in man in your opinion?
Again you give scriptures, but do not explain what they mean to you, or how they should be understood according to you.Georg
Hi Georg,
The spirit of natural man returns to God at death[ecc12]
Man does not share the spirit of God till so blessed by Jesus.Here are some aspects scripture shows us of man's natural spirit.
Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.Jas2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.Rom8
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:Nick
I forgot part of it.
Blessed of the Holy Spirit, or blessed with the Holy Spirit?
What do you mean by abandon? while you are in your grave waiting for the resurrection, there is no spirit present, God's or yours.
Why do you think that Christs spirit is needed while you are in your grave, Heb. 13:5?
Rom. 8:11, God's Holy Spirit raised up Christ from the dead, and he will raise up all the saints from the dead. Now, if you were referring to the other side, namely while we are alive; we were considered dead before we excepted Jesus Christ as our savior, God's Holy Spirit quickened us, made us alive.
But again, no spirit dwells in or with you while you are in your grave.Georg
Nick
Unknowingly you have proven my point. All the scriptures you have quoted speak of the spirit in man; the same spirit Paul mentions in
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.Why did you quote
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Do animals then have a spirit too? you see, this scripture questions, and admits, that no one knows were our spirit/mind goes.
And here is the reason why.Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc. 8:8 is exactly right, just as you have no power over your spirit/mind when you are asleep, you have no controll over it when you're dead.
Georg
Hi Georg,
So man can know himself by his own spirit
And those blessed in the Spirit can know the things of God by His Spirit which they share.
But neither animals nor natural man have any share in the Spirit of God except they be so blessed by Christ1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
We do not know where the spirit of men go??
Ecc12
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 06 2009,03:14) meerkat I am surprised to hear you say, you don't believe in two resurrection, the Bible is very clear on that, Rev. 20:5. The Bible calls this the first resurrection, because the saints will be resurrected before any one else, therefore it is commonly referred to as the second resurrection. And, yes, only the saints will be resurrected with a new nature/body, spirit.
Georg
GeorgSorry, I did not say clearly what I was thinking, there are 2 resurrections but there are not 2 different types of resurrections – when Jesus says he is the resurrection and the life I don't think he means that he has one type of “life” for 1 class of people and a different type of “life” for others.
There is different timings and actions involved i.e wrath, judgment etc for the participants of those 2 resurrections
Hi MK,
There are two types of people, the living and the dead.
Jesus is the resurrection and the life.
Life is in him.Those who come to him can receive from his fountain of life.
They can pass from death to life
Those who do not are dead.Except by His merciful choice after the second resurrection they remain under God's wrath, pots fit for destruction.
You must be reborn from above
Quote (samual @ Feb. 05 2009,23:58) 2 Peter 3:7 (New American Standard Bible)
“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”Revelation 21:8 (New American Standard Bible)
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”There can be little doubt that these Scriptures are speaking of individuals, not nations as such, but “immoral persons” and even the “ungodly men” – those persons that could care less about God or do not believe in God at all.
Your thoughts are awaited. God bless!
Samual,There can be a danger of thinking that because fire is mentioned in 2 scriptures that they talk of the same event –
There was a national judgment of Jerusalem and the Jews in 70AD
There will be national judgment of the nations
There will be individual judgment of all people
There are different times of resurrection – hence 2 resurrections at different times
There are some saved from the wrath of God
There are some that experience the wrath of God
I think that in Peter where it says that the “present heavens and earth” are being reserved for fire – I believe that was referring to the old covenant heavens and earth (Judaism) that was removed in 70AD.
Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 06 2009,03:14) meerkat Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
The spirit that goes back to God at our death, is his Holy Spirit that he gave us; the Holy Spirit does not dwell in a dead corpse.
Is. 42:5, God created the earth, and he gave the breath of life to the people on it, and don't you claim to have received the Holy Spirit. There is another way to look at this, Paul says there is a spirit in man, that is our mind, not an immortal soul. God gives us his Holy Spirit, so that we can understand the things of God; that spirit goes back to God who gave it.
I am surprised to hear you say, you don't believe in two resurrection, the Bible is very clear on that, Rev. 20:5. The Bible calls this the first resurrection, because the saints will be resurrected before any one else, therefore it is commonly referred to as the second resurrection. And, yes, only the saints will be resurrected with a new nature/body, spirit.Georg
GeorgIn your understanding the spirit of man, which is given to us by God and is how we can know God – when we die that returns to God – when people are “raised” for the millenium do they get that spiritual part back? If they do not have that spiritual part how are they to “know God”
For those that are raised/resurrected in the body for the millenium, after they hear and believe since they are already raised in the body do they get another resurrection to raise them spiritually/incorruptible?
When Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected, that was when he was given an incorruptible body and to me it seems that the act of resurrection is being given a spiritual incorruptible body and it is not a separate change.
Hi MK,
You say
“When Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected, that was when he was given an incorruptible body and to me it seems that the act of resurrection is being given a spiritual incorruptible body and it is not a separate change.”But scripture says
1Cor15
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.And yet Jesus said after his resurrection in Lk24
” 39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. “
He ate with them
Jn21
12Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.13Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
And he also showed to cuts in the perishable mortal body to Thomas.
Jn20
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
We hope for an imperishable body such as the captian of our salvation now has
1Cor15
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.1Cor 15
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.Nick,
So are you saying that we can not put faith in Jesus resurrection from the dead – that even if we are resurrected we could still be subject to mortality.
When he says that he is the resurrection and the life – that resurrection and life can be perishable?
When Jesus said he had a body did that mean that it was a corruptible body? I don't think so.
Meerkat
A resurrection simply means to receive life again after one has died. However, the reward for the once resurrected first is greater than the once that come up later. The Bible says, the second death hath no power over those that are in the first resurrection, Rev. 20:6, because they were resurrected with a spirit body; all the rest will be resurrected with a human, flesh body.
Yes, there are two types of resurrections, and yes, there are two types of rewards.
Those that will reign with Christ will become spirit beings. Just as Christ took on our nature, the saints will be given a spirit nature, they will then rule over us.
Don't feel bad, living for ever can't be all bad.Georg
Hi MK,
Do you have any other faith?
Yes he was raised in the same corruptible body he died in.
We cannot deny that the body he was raised in was the same one he died in.By the choice of God it did not utterly perish.
When he ascended as when we are lifted up he surely was given an imperishable body.Nick
If Jesus was resurrected with the same corruptible, and scared body, why did none of his friends recognize him?
John 20:15 “Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have born him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.”
John 21:4 “But when the morning now was come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.”
Luke 24:15 “And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.”
v. 16 “But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”Jesus was the ransom, the exchange for Adam; had Jesus been bodily resurrected it would have been the same as taken back the ransom. Jesus took on all of our sins, the wages of sin is death, Rom. 6:23. Jesus was resurrected with a spirit body, and after he ascended he received his reward, a glorified, divine body and immortality.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
The flesh body of Jesus had done it's purpose, taking on our sins; can you imagine what people would have done with that body had God left it in the grave? Just look at what people think they have in the shroud of Turin. God disposed of the body for the same reason he hid the grave of Moses.
Georg
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