The scapegoat

[Rabsheka]

Hi Nick

The lake of fire is prepared for all the unrighteous indeed, Satan, his angel followers and men resurrected to a judgement of everlasting death (Rev 20). And, most importantly death itself. But there is no scripture that says that the angels who did foresake their station before the flood belonged to Satan either – unless you count Enoch as inspired.

Do you count the books of Enoch inspired scripture Nick – yes or no!

May the undeserved kindness from our Lord be with you. RS

[NickHassan]

Hi RS,
I know Enoch is quoted in Jude so I do not discount it.

Do angels receive pardon?
2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

[Rabsheka]

Hi Nick

About 2 Peter 2:4, I for mine place the emphasis on “Judgement”, that is, they are YET to be judged. So, why did he not destroy them then and there if angels will not have the potential to be forgiven. There is no other possible reason for our Lord to have visited them – perhaps to check that their chains were tight enough? Now I'm not saying whether they will be released or not, for only God knows. I believe as I think you believe that pre-deluge persons and even the demonstrably wicked people of Sodom and Gomorrah will receive a trial based on what they did, for the Lord tells us that they will get a better reception that Chorazin and Capernaum because these saw in him the flesh doing the works of his father and did not believe.

It's all about equality in justice and judgement. For who am I, who has done my fair share of lusting after the ladies when I had no entitlement to do so, to judge Azazel.

About Enoch. I put my toe in, and it was aweful cold, and I do not know if I am wise enough to handle where it would take me. We have enough trouble with Mat 24 for Heaven's sake!

May the undeserved kindness from our Lord be with you. RS

[NickHassan]

Hi RS,
These angels in chains are not the spirits[souls]of those who died in the time of Noah.

Our view of the judgement of God changes when we read Lk16.

[Rabsheka]

Hi Nick

Now Now, it was you who placed this scripture:

Do angels receive pardon?
2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

And as I said, they were not and still have not been “terminated”. What is so difficult to understand about “reserved” and

“judgement”?

And Luke 16, what part – you mean this one:

3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Luke 17:2-4 (ESV)

It's like I said, the justice of our God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I pretty much think you have proved my point here.

May the undeserved kindness from our Lord be with you. RS

[Rabsheka]

Hi Nick

Now Now, it was you who placed this scripture:

Do angels receive pardon?
2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

And as I said, they were not and still have not been “terminated”. What is so difficult to understand about “reserved” (put aside for later attention) and

“judgement” (declared by due authority to be one thing or another)?

And Luke 16, what part – you mean this one:

3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Luke 17:2-4 (ESV)

It's like I said, the justice of our God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I pretty much think you have proved my point here.

May the undeserved kindness from our Lord be with you. RS

[NickHassan]

Quote (Rabsheka @ Jan. 27 2009,21:53)

Hi Nick Now Now, it was you who placed this scripture: Do angels receive pardon? 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And as I said, they were not and still have not been “terminated”. What is so difficult to understand about “reserved” and “judgement”? And Luke 16, what part – you mean this one: 3 Pay attention to yourselves!  If your brother sins,  rebuke him, and if he repents,  forgive him, 4 and if he sins against you  seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” Luke 17:2-4 (ESV) It's like I said, the justice of our God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I pretty much think you have proved my point here. May the undeserved kindness from our Lord be with you. RS

Hi RS,
Brothers are not for the fire.
All are not brothers.

Please show me scripture that showes God will be merciful to errant angels.

Men will judge them but their ultimate fate as well as those of dead men is sealed.

Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

[Rabsheka]

Hi Nick

I have shown you scriptures that say God has offered these angels mercy, but on certain conditions – that they accept Christ as Lord thus severing any ties to Satan they may or may not have had. Now I do not know their decision, for the scriptures do not tell me. However, if they rejected the word of our Lord then they will be judged acordingly and a sentence of destruction in the lake of fire will be carried out, until which time they remain in prison.

Yes, it is true that Satan and his demonic angels have been judged and then immediately thrown to the earth to serve Gods purpose in the same way Pharoah did, also until the sentence is carried out at the end of the millenium. Although Revelations seems to me to say Satan's demons will go before that, but I'm not sure.

Now I know that my proposition would be contrary to your belief that the book of Enoch may be inspired scripture that says Azazel is denied mercy, and you are unwilling to compromise on this. All I know is that Leviticus is beyond doubt inspired, as is Peter, and it will be a long arguement indeed before you could convince me to take Enoch over them.

May the undeserved kindness from our Lord be with you. RS

[NickHassan]

Hi RS,
You say
“I have shown you scriptures that say God has offered these angels mercy, but on certain conditions – that they accept Christ as Lord thus severing any ties to Satan they may or may not have had”
Extraordinary.
Where are these matters written about ANGELS?

[NickHassan]

Hi RS,
Surely you would not ask us to accept that one verse dubiously interpreted is sufficient to teach from that evil angels can expect forgiveness from God. You will of course show other verses that support the idea according to the principle of 2Cor 13.1

[Rabsheka]

Hi Nick

You mention the principle of 2Cor 13:1. Firstly, it refers to the necessity for the witness of two or three to be necessary to establish a “CHARGE”, that is an accusation. I am not accusing anybody of anything. But I have given you a number of scriptures that I believe support a proposition, one of which from an Apostle that tells us that the Lord after his death did visit a group of angels who had sinned at the time before Noah to preach to them, another of which resides in 2 Peter that I did not quote. Additionally, I have showen you scriptures from the Old Tastament that establish that God required the high priest to make an atonement for a person named Azazel. Now you have contented yourself with casting unrelated scripture at me, denying the meaning of scriptures I have quoted which are self evident, and generally attempted to win a point through gainsaying, all due to the fact that that you hold as inspired certain psuedopigraphic writings as truth and righteous, which only hang on the belief they were quoted by Jude the Obscure, a fact that given certain differences, such as the number of angels that will acompany Our Lord, I do not yet subscribe to.

Now I know that the conveiner of this site places great weight on the book of Enoch, only just stopping short of calling it inspired, or so his writing indicates, but there is something a bit each way in his words. The problem is that it is either scripture or it is not, for to proceed otherwise is confusion, a thing that Satan rejoices in in his work of covering. Moreover, I defy any man in this time to claim he has the right and power to redefine the canons of the OT, which Enoch is perhaps contempory with) or the NT for that matter, which Enoch could not be placed in for it is not contempraneous.

How do I expect you to accept a thing based on dubious interpretation you say. Well, that is for you to decide, what is dubious I mean – but you can only decide for and unto yourself and not for others, otherwise you are judging. For you will believe what you will believe, and I will believe what I think the Spirit has shown me. But in the end we both will stand corrected about many things before the Lord.

Accordingly, let us cease before our vanity causes sin and unrighteousness, for I care more about you and I keeping the central tenets of our faith than winning something from a man. For attempting to break a man's faith using the very words of God is indeed a sin from which we cannot return

May the undeserved kindness from our Lord be with you. RS

[NickHassan]

Hi RS,
So it depends how much faith you lay by the preposition you have created.
None seem to agree so perhaps we should put it aside and move on?

[NickHassan]

Hi RS,
I believe 2 Cor 13.1 shows us the biblical standard of proof.

“.. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

Do you think men must cut their hair?

It is written
1 Corinthians 11:14
Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

But only once

[NickHassan]

For GM,
1 Peter 2.24

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Jesus became sin for us.[2Cor 5]
He became a curse for us.[Gal3]

By his stripes we are healed.

[NickHassan]

Topical

[NickHassan]

Hi,

Lev 16.5

He shall take from the congregation of the sons of Israel two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering. Then Aaron shall offer the bull for the sin offering which is for himself, that he might make atonement for himself and for his household. He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the doorway of the tent of meeting. Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. Then he shall offer the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

Heb 13.12

Therefore Jesus also , that he might sanctify the people, through his own blood, suffered outside the gate. So let us go to him outside the camp, bearing his reproach. For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.

 

The Jews do not accept that one man can die for the sins of another.

Jesus died as the scapegoat for our sins that we might live.

 

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