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Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 24 2009,07:23) Quote (georg @ Oct. 24 2009,06:53) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 24 2009,06:44) bodhitharta said: Quote Why does everyone seem to think that one covenant must replace another? bd,
It was God who replaced the old covenant with the new because He saw that the old did not work.
Quote 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. Note that it says that there was a need for a second covenant because the first covenant had fault. It says that God found fault wit the first covenant.
thinker
Good going, thinker. If the old covenant would have worked there would have been no need for Christ to come and die for us. If you look in the bible from Genesis to Hebrew God has made different covenant with people. Abraham being the first covenant. The perpetual covenant He made with the children of Israel and not with us Gentles.
Of course I said this before. Some will never understand and I question why?
Irene
Irene,
You're absolutely right. Paul said that Christ died to fulfill the law in our behalf. Of course, bd denies that Christ was crucified so the old covenant is all he's got. But we who believe in Jesus are under the new covenant.thinker
right on thinker, it is good to agree on something, is it not.
IreneQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 24 2009,06:44) bodhitharta said: Quote Why does everyone seem to think that one covenant must replace another? bd,
It was God who replaced the old covenant with the new because He saw that the old did not work.
Quote 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. Note that it says that there was a need for a second covenant because the first covenant had fault. It says that God found fault with the first covenant.
thinker
That covenant that you are speaking of has not even occured yet.In-fact it cannot pertain to Jesus at all:
Jeremiah 31
29In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
So if you are correct Jesus did not die for the sins of anyone
Hi BD,
Jesus died under the old covenant fulfilling it.
Now the new covenant is written in his blood.OLD COVENANT RELIGIOUS WORLD ORDER!
Tim Kraft,
You really believe this? The Old Covenant was a religious World Order?
So Moses was a Hitler? Stalin, Mao?
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 23 2009,08:29) to all
all the teachers of religion have the same flip-flop to justifying there explenations,to colect the money they go to the temple of jerusalem and the juwish law,to justify there big cherches they built they also go to the hebrew way and moses law and ordenances,even go to quote tradition.
this is rong.
So Moses was only in it for power and money?Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 23 2009,09:03) Circumcision was also called a “perpetual” covenant (Genesis 17). Yet we know the apostles done away with circumcision (Acts 15). Con denies that God established a new covenant.
thinker
The issue of circumcision raised such a dispute among the apostles that they all came together for a council in Jerusalem to settle the matter within the church. And circumcision was not even one of God's Ten Commandments.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 23 2009,15:34) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 23 2009,09:03) Circumcision was also called a “perpetual” covenant (Genesis 17). Yet we know the apostles done away with circumcision (Acts 15). Con denies that God established a new covenant.
thinker
The issue of circumcision raised such a dispute among the apostles that they all came together for a council in Jerusalem to settle the matter within the church. And circumcision was not even one of God's Ten Commandments.
It was a “Token”.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 23 2009,15:36) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 23 2009,15:34) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 23 2009,09:03) Circumcision was also called a “perpetual” covenant (Genesis 17). Yet we know the apostles done away with circumcision (Acts 15). Con denies that God established a new covenant.
thinker
The issue of circumcision raised such a dispute among the apostles that they all came together for a council in Jerusalem to settle the matter within the church. And circumcision was not even one of God's Ten Commandments.
It was a “Token”.
Likened to physical baptism.Quote (georg @ Oct. 23 2009,10:19) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 24 2009,05:01) To All………The Sabbath is one of the eternal commandments of GOD, it will never be done away with, it is the very symbol of how we are saved, it symbolizes (CEASING OF OUR WORKS) It is exactly what Jesus did he ceased from his work and let GOD work through HIM, it is the same with US we must cease from our works (ETERNALLY), and let GOD work in US (ETERNALLY). The sabbath (IS) a picture of how eternal life works and will never be done away with now or in the future ever. The same goes with all ten commandments they are eternal commandments. GOD does not remove his laws (ten commandments) he writes them on our hearts and minds, they are eternal. The problem is thinking the Sabbath is only one day when in fact it must come to be every day of our lives. peace and love to you all……………………gene
Gene, we are under a new covenant and we never were under the Sabbath, it was a sign between God and the nation Israel. Exodus 31:16-17. Read it and learn. I wonder how Jodi feels about that since she grew up in the W,W,Church of God. The new covenant under Jesus Blood Luke 22:20 and we are under grace in Ephesians 2:8-10 Where does it say that it is an eternal commandments for us. We are Gentles and not under that covenant that God made to Israel. In fact Paul tells us that some will keep one day and another will keep another day, and some keep all the days alike, to the LORD.
Peace and Love Irene
Once you graft into the vine you are no longer Gentile.Quote (georg @ Oct. 23 2009,10:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2009,05:02) Hi CON,
Indeed.
True Israel.We must be grafted into the olive tree while these is still time.
Nick You are not making yourself clear by what you are saying. Please explain!!!!
Irene
He agreed that Gentiles are to be grafted in!Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 23 2009,10:41) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 24 2009,04:07) Irene said: Quote What you want to do is keep the old in a new vessel. That simple does not work. Christ came down to earth and became the New Covenant in His Blood. I am not going to go into all the Scriptures that I gave you before. What yopu need to do is study it. The Sabbath was never meant to be for us. And it states that. Why in the world don't you want to believe Scriptures? We used to think the same thing in the W,W,Church of God, and we kept the Sabbath and all the Holy Days. If you read in Hebrew you will see that one more Covenant is to come yet. God will finally make an example nation ot of the tribes of Israel and Judah which He wanted to already in the first century. But His own people killed Him. But God is going to graft them back in again . You can read so in Romans. Irene,
I agree with you on this one. Jesus said that new wine cannot be put into old wineskins, that is, the new covenant cannot be mingled with the old.thinker
Why does everyone seem to think that one covenant must replace another?Covenants are agreements it is possible for different people to agree on different things is it not?
I myself keep the Sabbath as a retreat from wordly concerns I do this from Fri-night to Sat-night. However, I do realize that this in my case is done from an understanding that I agree with.
God has made covenants all throughout the Bible He made “covenants” not an Old Covenant and a New Covenant but many Covenants with individuals and all of mankind at large.
After the flood God made a covenant with all mankind which was minus almost any dietary law:
The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), often referred to as the Noahide Laws, are a set of seven moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind.[1] According to Judaism any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the Jewish concept of heaven.[2] Adherents are often called “B'nei Noach” (Children of Noah) or “Noahides” and may often network in Jewish synagogues.
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3]
Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse.
Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)
The Noahide Laws comprise the six laws given to Adam in the Garden of Eden,[4] and a seventh (eating flesh from a living animal), which was added after the Flood of Noah. Later at the Revelation at Sinai the Seven Laws of Noah were regiven to humanity and embedded in the 613 Laws given to the Children of Israel along with the Ten Commandments, which are part of, and not separate from, the 613 mitzvot. These laws are mentioned in the Torah. According to Judaism, the 613 mitzvot or “commandments” given in the written Torah, as well as their reasonings in the oral Torah, were only issued to the Jews and are therefore binding only upon them, having inherited the obligation from their ancestors. At the same time, at Mount Sinai, the Children of Israel (i.e. the Children of Jacob, i.e. the Israelites) were given the obligation to teach other nations the embedded Noahide Laws. However, it is actually forbidden by the Talmud for non-Jews (on whom the Noahide Laws are still binding) to elevate their observance to the Torah's mitzvot as the Jews do.[5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws
The point is that there are several types of covenants and some run concurrently with others and some are separated from others for instance Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac were all under the covenant of circumcision but God also made an additional covenant with Isaac it did not nullify or change the covenant of circumcision but also notice that the Noahide laws that were made with all mankind does not include circumcision therefore God said that those who entered into a covenant with Abraham must be circumcised but that doesn't mean that Lot for instance was circumcised at that time nor was any of those before Abraham.
Abraham may have received the covenant of circumcision because he had left his polytheistic relatives and God wanted to mark his flesh to separate him and all his people from the heathens.
Those accepting Christ Jesus entered into a covenant that did not nullify other covenants but was an additional covenant therefore those under the Jewish laws all 613 of them were still under the Law and those who were under the Noahide laws all 7 were still under them.
Jesus institutes another Covenant that removes many restrictions but he did not abolish the sabbath as he was a part of that agreement and instead he returned it to its original purpose which was to rest from “wordly things” saying it is lawful to do good on the sabbath.
Not even of my faith and you agree, I am amazed. They, you think would agree, and they turn there backs on God's Holy day.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 23 2009,11:47) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 24 2009,05:01) To All………The Sabbath is one of the eternal commandments of GOD, it will never be done away with, it is the very symbol of how we are saved, it symbolizes (CEASING OF OUR WORKS) It is exactly what Jesus did he ceased from his work and let GOD work through HIM, it is the same with US we must cease from our works (ETERNALLY), and let GOD work in US (ETERNALLY). The sabbath (IS) a picture of how eternal life works and will never be done away with now or in the future ever. The same goes with all ten commandments they are eternal commandments. GOD does not remove his laws (ten commandments) he writes them on our hearts and minds, they are eternal. The problem is thinking the Sabbath is only one day when in fact it must come to be every day of our lives. peace and love to you all……………………gene
Gene,
You are confused. Circumcision was also called an “everlasting” covenant. But the apostles discarded circumcision (Acts 15). If you're going to keep the sabbath then get the surgical tool ready.thinker
He only discarded it for Gentiles, also circumscision means nothing, it is like water baptism, it is outward sign.Quote (georg @ Oct. 23 2009,12:31) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 24 2009,07:23) Quote (georg @ Oct. 24 2009,06:53) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 24 2009,06:44) bodhitharta said: Quote Why does everyone seem to think that one covenant must replace another? bd,
It was God who replaced the old covenant with the new because He saw that the old did not work.
Quote 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. Note that it says that there was a need for a second covenant because the first covenant had fault. It says that God found fault wit the first covenant.
thinker
Good going, thinker. If the old covenant would have worked there would have been no need for Christ to come and die for us. If you look in the bible from Genesis to Hebrew God has made different covenant with people. Abraham being the first covenant. The perpetual covenant He made with the children of Israel and not with us Gentles.
Of course I said this before. Some will never understand and I question why?
Irene
Irene,
You're absolutely right. Paul said that Christ died to fulfill the law in our behalf. Of course, bd denies that Christ was crucified so the old covenant is all he's got. But we who believe in Jesus are under the new covenant.thinker
right on thinker, it is good to agree on something, is it not.
Irene
Satan believes the same thing.Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 23 2009,13:21) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 24 2009,06:44) bodhitharta said: Quote Why does everyone seem to think that one covenant must replace another? bd,
It was God who replaced the old covenant with the new because He saw that the old did not work.
Quote 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. Note that it says that there was a need for a second covenant because the first covenant had fault. It says that God found fault with the first covenant.
thinker
That covenant that you are speaking of has not even occured yet.In-fact it cannot pertain to Jesus at all:
Jeremiah 31
29In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
So if you are correct Jesus did not die for the sins of anyone
Truth!Isa 58:13-14
13 “If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, and shall honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure, and speaking your own word,
14 Then you will take delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”I Jn 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.God's commandments have always been for our good. The first four commandments tell us how to build and maintain our relationship with God. The last six tell us how to build and maintain our relationships with each other. God's commandments are not a burden; they are a delight. God's Sabbath day is not a burden; it is a delight.
Did Paul or the other Apostles or Disciples abolish the Sabbath with their instructions or teachings?
Col 2:14, 16-17
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day–
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.Some people use this text to argue that the Sabbath was abolished, and that Paul was instructing the Gentile believers not to keep the Sabbath. In fact, these people argue that not just the Sabbath, but all of the Ten Commandments were abolished and 'nailed to the cross'. But is that what the verse says? Let's look at the context to get a better picture of what Paul was saying here.
Col 2:8-17
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day–
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.Let me show you a number of problems with this argument. First of all, although many Christians will argue that the whole law was 'nailed to the cross', they still consider things like stealing, lying, murder, and adultery to be sins. Secondly, Paul was talking primarily about Jewish traditions, which were added above and beyond the commandments of God. Notice he draws the same distinction that Jesus did between the commandments of God and the 'traditions of men'. Finally, note what was 'nailed to the cross'. Was it the Ten Commandments? No. It was a 'certificate of debt' consisting of 'decrees' which were 'against us' and 'hostile to us'. Are the Ten Commandments against us or hostile to us? No.
Paul was referring to many of the tenets, or 'decrees', of the Mosaic ceremonial law – the law of sacrifices.
The fact becomes more evident in verses 16 and 17. Here Paul speaks about food and drink offerings and festivals and then he calls all of these things 'shadows of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.'
There were seven annual feasts in the Jewish ceremonial law which were called sabbaths, but which were distinct and different from the weekly Sabbath. All of these festivals pointed forward to Christ and His part in the plan of salvation. Below is a description of one of these feasts – the annual Day of Atonement, or Yom Kippur.
Lev 23:27-28, 32
27 “On exactly the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.
28 “Neither shall you do any work on this same day, for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
32 “It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath.”But notice as we continue on in the same scripture passage that these ceremonial sabbaths were different and distinct from the weekly Sabbaths. It says 'besides' or apart from the 'Sabbaths of the Lord', which are the weekly Sabbaths. Notice that it also talks about food and drink offerings, or grain offerings and libations, just like Paul did in Col. 2:16.
Lev 23:37-38
37 'These are the appointed times of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations, to present offerings by fire to the LORD– burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and libations, each day's matter on its own day–
38 besides those of the Sabbaths of the LORD, and besides your gifts, and besides all your votive and freewill offerings, which you give to the LORD.These ceremonial sabbaths, along with their sacrifices, were shadows or symbols that pointed forward to Jesus. Jesus was our Passover sacrificial Lamb. He was also the First Fruits offering and is the one whose blood made atonement for our sins. These sacrificial offerings ceased to have any significance when they were 'nailed to the cross' with Christ, who was the One true Sacrifice. But the Sabbath was primarily a memorial to creation, not a shadow of something that pointed forward to Jesus. We can see the truth of this in Paul's actions. He never offered another sacrifice after he became a Christian, however, he kept the Sabbath regularly (see Acts 13:42-44, 17:2).
Hi CON,
Catholicism says water baptism is an outward sign.
But the Spirit does not agree as in 1Peter3.Gentiles must be grafted into the true Israel which is headed by the Lord of the Sabbath.
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