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Hi 94,
You quote
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,Indeed his coming was the plan of God.
What has this to do with the existence of the monogenes son?Quote (942767 @ July 29 2007,23:08) Hi Nick: Also, what does Jesus mean when he says that he is the “root of David?
Following is the definition according to Strong's Concordance:
Quote The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 4491 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
rJivza apparently a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Rhiza 6:985,985
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hrid'-zah Noun FeminineDefinition
a root that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot metaph. offspring, progeny
I am afraid 942767 … that you're wasting your time.
He has been shown time & time again what
'root of David' means i.e.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,23:00) Hi not3, Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?
Hi Nick … this was explained to before … here is a reminder:Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07) Scripture is precise and pure.
If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used.
If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition.
It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.
Not at all Nick!
They are not different.
It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
in scripture.
It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.E.g. (Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3
Also (Job 25:6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.
Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.
As already pointed out to you, the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …
(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
Also, (Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!
Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!
BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!i.e.
(Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza'
[UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil)
[Thayer's Lexicon]
rhiza {hrid'-zah}
Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny
Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f
Usage: AV – root 17; 17G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah}
[LS Grk Lex.]
35625 r`i,za
III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc.[Friberg Grk Lex]
04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12).Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan;
Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2007,10:37) Hi 94,
You quote
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,Indeed his coming was the plan of God.
What has this to do with the existence of the monogenes son?
Hi Nick:You keep stating that he pre-existed as a son before he was born of the virgin Mary, but you have not scripture to support your viewpoint. His saying that he is the root of David does not specifically say that he pre-existed his Virgin birth. Also, the original scriptures were not in English. Yes, anyone knows what the English root means.
I have given you three scriptures which shows that he was foreordained. He was foreordained. The scriptures specifically state that, but the scriptures do not specifically state that he pre-existed as you say, at least not as a sentient person.
I believe that by the following scripture indicates that he did not pre-exist his virgin birth:
Quote Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me F4 freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. God tells David that he will raise up Christ to sit upon his throne. This is prophetic which shows that he did not exist at that time.
God Bless
Quote (Adam Pastor @ July 30 2007,11:31) Quote (942767 @ July 29 2007,23:08) Hi Nick: Also, what does Jesus mean when he says that he is the “root of David?
Following is the definition according to Strong's Concordance:
Quote The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 4491 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
rJivza apparently a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Rhiza 6:985,985
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hrid'-zah Noun FeminineDefinition
a root that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot metaph. offspring, progeny
I am afraid 942767 … that you're wasting your time. He has been shown time & time again what
'root of David' means i.e.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,23:00) Hi not3, Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?
Hi Nick … this was explained to before … here is a reminder:Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07) Scripture is precise and pure.
If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used.
If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition.
It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.
Not at all Nick!
They are not different.
It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
in scripture.
It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.E.g. (Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3
Also (Job 25:6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.
Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.
As already pointed out to you, the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …
(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
Also, (Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!
Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!
BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!i.e.
(Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza'
[UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil)
[Thayer's Lexicon]
rhiza {hrid'-zah}
Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny
Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f
Usage: AV – root 17; 17G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah}
[LS Grk Lex.]
35625 r`i,za
III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc.[Friberg Grk Lex]
04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12).Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan;
Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!
Hi Adam Pastor:Thanks for your post. I agree with all that you say here.
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2007,12:21) Hi,
Certainly the BU view is currently popular here.
Labeling does not promote unity, it only further divides.Adam,
As you warned 94, I am also becoming weary of walking in circles…..Thank you for your post. I wish we heard from you more often!
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:[8328]
10 And in that day there shall be a ROOT[8328] of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Number 8328
Transliteration:
sheresh {sheh'-resh}
Word Origin:
from 8327
TWOT:
2471a
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
root 30, bottom 1, deep 1, heels 1Total: 33
Definition:
root
root (literal)
root (of people involving firmness or permanence) (fig)
root, bottom (as lowest stratum) (fig)So here we have again not a parallelism but Christ coming from the root of Jesse and being the ancestor of Jesse.
The same as with David.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2007,14:58) Hi not3,
Denominations are divisions.
Yes, so please stop pointing them out.Has 94 or Adam announced their membership in the BU denomination? I am certainly not a member of this denomination but because some of my beliefs align with theirs, I have been accused of being a part of them. This should not be.
You seem to think so as you are quoted below:
“Certainly the BU view is currently popular here.”
The BU's are a denomination.
By saying that certain members show a “BU view” is to catagorize them in this denomination, imo. It's just not necessary, is all I'm saying. Besides, I don't see a whole lot wrong with the BU viewpoint. I do see quite a few things wrong with your theology, however. But I do not label you this or that….I merely say that your theology is strange to me as I have never heard your viewpoints on certain topics from any other Christian I've known – except for t8. I'm beginning to wonder if you, t8, and Heaven are all just alias' for the same person?Hi not3,
No this is a site set up and initially funded by t8 alone. I joined the team and met him and his lovely family a couple of years ago and they have stayed with us once as well. The Spirit unites us and your observations are refreshingly welcome.Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate that.
I wonder though, if the Spirit is uniting you and t8 in your unique views……what is the Spirit doing with the rest of us?
Hi not3,
We are all painfully extracting truth from the only ore that is useful, the Word of God. I challenge to make folk think deeply and check their foundations. I encourage the correct approach to scripture comparing verse with verse and context with context and outside of denominations guidelines. And I urge all to seek the Spirit because it is only when we are all reborn that we can begin to see the kingdom together. Then it could get exciting.Hi,
Nebuchadnezzer was chopped down like a tree but his stump and roots were left in the ground for him to live again as a man of understanding once he had learned his lesson.Dan4
” 14He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:15Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:”
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