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Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 28 2008,17:10) Hi Isaiah, I'm pretty tired tonight, I've been listening to a lot of audio from the site you recommended OR thought that Tow got his material from. I've also been looking at the scriptures you shared and your comments. I have a few questions for you.
Quote …..that the Messiah comes more than once, and in two different fashions. The first time as the suffering servant sent to die for the sins of men, and again as Avenger, Judge and King.
I know this is a popular teaching, but where are the verses in the OT that teach this?Quote Indeed this will happen. At His second coming – When Yeshua will reign as King, ruling from Mt Zion. Jeremiah 23:5-8
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS…they shall dwell in their own land.
Using the OT it is hard to say if this is referring to a second coming of THE Messiah. It could be speaking of the first appearance of the annointed King, could it not? It sounds like we are reading Jesus into this passage.Quote When Joseph adopted Jesus as his legal son, Jesus became both David's direct descendent through David's son Nathan (Mary's side), and David's legal royal heir through Solomon (Joseph's side).
But in the Torah it is said that the mother determines if the child is Jewish or not, but the Father determines it's clan or standing. According to the above, Jesus would have to draw his pedigree from Joseph. If this is so it doesn't appear to help Jesus much because Joseph's lineage is traced back to that King that had a curse put on him! What do you think of that?Quote What Towshab has done here is bring up a bunch of prophecies that have an end times application and said “hey, these are messianic prophecies and Jesus didn’t fulfill any of them!”, but to charge Yeshua with failing to fulfill prophecies which are manifestly eschatological in nature demonstrates an ignorance of scriptures.
So you agree that Jesus didn't fulfill these messianic prophesies the first time around?Quote but to charge Yeshua with failing to fulfill prophecies which are manifestly eschatological in nature demonstrates an ignorance of scriptures.
But this is exactly the problem……nowhere in the OT is the annointed future King to come to the earth once and not fulfill anything,and then come again and fulfill everything.Quote In practically every OT reference Towshab cited there were details given that have no link to any period of human history to date, there has never been a sustained period of peace on Earth where YHWH will reign as King from Mt Zion…..but there will be.
Exactly! When Jesus came none of this happened.
When the Messiah comes it's supposed to happen.
Nowhere does it say in the OT that the Messiah will do it the second time around.You may see my confusion now?
Thanks,
Mandy
I'm tired too. Mind if I look at this tomorrow? I confess I have become unnaturally fixated with fly fishing lately and it's soaking up a lot of my discretionary time. Imagine what will happan when I actually catch a fish!!Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 28 2008,17:10) Exactly! When Jesus came none of this happened.
When the Messiah comes it's supposed to happen.
Nowhere does it say in the OT that the Messiah will do it the second time around.
Maybe, maybe not. I can't be sure at this stage because I am not familiar with all scripture.That said, it if it were prophesied that the messiah would be killed and the price of his sacrifice being more than the price to redeem man, then coming again as a reigning king the second time, then what would the chances be that the rulers of this age would have naively killed him? Surely Satan would not kill the messiah if he knew of this consequence?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.Where in scripture is it said that God will reveal his whole plan for all to see in scripture?
Revelation 10:7
But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”So he reveals his plan to his prophets, but the mystery will not be accomplished till the days of the seventh angel.
So why are some so fixated on things like “well it doesn't say that the messiah would do this or that”? Surely there are things spoken of as the messiah, other things that are true but also not worth a mention, and still other things that are a mystery so as to conceal the meaning till the right time.
Why do some think that that the mystery of God should be accomplished or understood right now, or somehow written for all to see (including Satan)?
No harm in seeking and searching, but writing off Jesus as the messiah because it doesn't say that he will come at 2 times? Well I have to question that reasoning.
I do know that scripture speaks of both a humble man like Jesus and a reigning King like we expect to see as Jesus coming at the end of the end times. But just because it doesn't define that they are 2 different times doesn't change anything for me.
Prophecies can take place in one event but they can also take place with large amounts of time in between. I think anyone who reads prophecy should realise that it is not written from a perspective like our human linear view.
Isaiah,
My husband went through a fly fishing phase! I have to say it was quite a hoot watching him tie all those little flies and even more of a hoot to see him floating in an intertube far out in a lake! He loved it. I think he only gave it up because our son came along and he took on more business. Lately he's been talking about taking “his boy” fishing…..so here we go again. I don't mind fishing. I grew up with a Dad who loved it. To us, waking up at 4:30 a.m. on a Sunday and packing lunches, in hopes that a fish would rise, was just as good as going to church!
One of my favorite movies in “A River Run's Through It” with Brad Pitt. It's loosely based on fly fishing. It has a lot of swearing in it, however. But we have a neat little feature on our TV that takes care of that for me.
t8 – Thanks for your post. Quite a few things caught my attention. I think I'll come back tonight and read it again and ponder what you've said. I've been sick and away from the computer for a few days.
Mandy
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 29 2008,19:39) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 28 2008,06:46) Thanks, Isaiah! I'm going to study everything you posted tonight (including the great link – thank you)!
My main concern was that the prophesies did not speak of a second return upon which the Christ would fulfill these things. I confess, that is confusing.
Thanks again, I really appreciate the time it took to put this together! I'm really going to study it.
Love,
Mandy
I didn't think the link was great, I posted it to show that Towshab was just parroting off, I don't think anything much of he wrote was 'original thought'. I thought the site I linked was simply Judaic antichristian propaganda. Here are some other sites you should check out….http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html
http://www.amfi.org/messiahs.htm
There are some very, very sound reasons to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. Maybe that's why billions have done so. It's not something that should be unquestioned, it's just that it's unquestionably true.
Oh, good! I'm glad I saw this post before I logged off. I will check out these sites tonight as well.I thought the other site was good not because I agreed with everything, but because I like to hear the opposing view. It's up to us all to reconcile the information we are presented with. Unlike some that I know (family members of mine), I like to walk into to something with eyes wide open. My husband and I always approach any business adventure with the same attitude and like to look at the worst-case senerio first! Some may think that is a negative approach, but we see it as gaining perspective. It's the same thing here. I like perspective.
Thanks, again!
MandyQuote (t8 @ Jan. 29 2008,21:03) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 28 2008,17:10) Exactly! When Jesus came none of this happened.
When the Messiah comes it's supposed to happen.
Nowhere does it say in the OT that the Messiah will do it the second time around.
Maybe, maybe not. I can't be sure at this stage because I am not familiar with all scripture.That said, it if it were prophesied that the messiah would be killed and the price of his sacrifice being more than the price to redeem man, then coming again as a reigning king the second time, then what would the chances be that the rulers of this age would have naively killed him? Surely Satan would not kill the messiah if he knew of this consequence?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.Where in scripture is it said that God will reveal his whole plan for all to see in scripture?
Revelation 10:7
But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”So he reveals his plan to his prophets, but the mystery will not be accomplished till the days of the seventh angel.
So why are some so fixated on things like “well it doesn't say that the messiah would do this or that”? Surely there are things spoken of as the messiah, other things that are true but also not worth a mention, and still other things that are a mystery so as to conceal the meaning till the right time.
Why do some think that that the mystery of God should be accomplished or understood right now, or somehow written for all to see (including Satan)?
No harm in seeking and searching, but writing off Jesus as the messiah because it doesn't say that he will come at 2 times? Well I have to question that reasoning.
I do know that scripture speaks of both a humble man like Jesus and a reigning King like we expect to see as Jesus coming at the end of the end times. But just because it doesn't define that they are 2 different times doesn't change anything for me.
Prophecies can take place in one event but they can also take place with large amounts of time in between. I think anyone who reads prophecy should realise that it is not written from a perspective like our human linear view.
Hi T8,
I quite agree.
God blindsided the principalities and powers and put the faith of men through a crucible of fire.
Most failed the test and most still do.Prophecy and scripture often speaks in a way so that the wicked will not understand. Often symbols are used and not clear language and sometimes we need other scripture to reveal the meaning.
Daniel 12:10
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.Romans 16:24-26
25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey himThere is no expectation in scripture that prophecy should turn out the way that the Jews expected it to.
If the Jews are the standard that we should attain, then will we not also be taken captive by Babylon? Has this already happened?
We shouldn't use men and the wisdom of man as the measure we should obtain. If we do that, then we are guaranteed to fall short.
Perhaps God has given more to this generation than any other? If that is the case, then he will expect more from us than any other generation.
Nick says:
Quote God blindsided the principalities and powers and put the faith of men through a crucible of fire.
Most failed the test and most still do.
What do you think this “crucible of fire” is? And why do most fail the test if they are seeking Him?t8 says:
Quote Prophecy and scripture often speaks in a way so that the wicked will not understand.
Understanding is what I seek from the LORD. But I am finding that often I do not understand – should I suppose that I am among the wicked?Hi not3,
Our faith buildings are tested to see whether they are made of straw, wood or stone.[1Cor3]
Testing is good as it makes us knock, ask and seek more strength through prayer[2Peter1].
Grace is ever accessible but we do not have because we do not ask[Jas]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2008,16:15) Hi not3,
Wisdom is more to be sought than knowledge as it is the key to it.
Of course even wisdom couldn't help our dear brother Solomon, could it?Jesus is the wisdom of God. Hmmm Good things to ponder!
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 20 2008,04:22) That's nice I'm sure Jesus appreciates that. 
I vote kenrch to be able to post again. I vote that he come back with editing rights fully instituted. t8 please think this over because kenrch helped us out a lot, man.Thank you very much.
Chap
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 01 2008,16:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2008,16:15) Hi not3,
Wisdom is more to be sought than knowledge as it is the key to it.
Of course even wisdom couldn't help our dear brother Solomon, could it?Jesus is the wisdom of God. Hmmm Good things to ponder!
God, warned Solomon that these “Wild Women” would lead him astray, but Solomon did not listen, therefore, he did not apply the wisdom that God gave him relative to this, and therefore, he suffered the consequence.HGi,
Scripture tells us Christ means Messiah
John 1:41
He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ).
John 4:25
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming ( He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”So to deny he is the messiah is to deny he is the Christ.
Which means that you must call him a liar because he said he is the ChristJn10
24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Which means that you have a problem that a man anointed by God and through who God did many wonders is labelled a liar by you?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 30 2007,05:23) Hi Tow,
Indeed Christ the suffering servant will return as king and those who pierced him will now recognise him and mourn for him. He will rule from Jerusalem.
The OT never says that the Messiah will “return” as King. The reason is that the Messiah was to COME as the King – accomplishing all that is said of him.Jesus needs a “second coming” to accomplish what the OT says of the promised Messiah.
The “second coming” is not written!
Hi mandy,
If you cannot see something then don't shout about it.
What you cannot see may show something.
You may see it all some day.Nick,
Can you see the “second coming”?
If so, please tell me where I can find this information.
You say, “What you cannot see….” but I dare say YOU cannot see it either because it is not written.
You are always the one who tells us to stay with what is written, why are you now telling me to believe something that isn't?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 01 2008,16:16) Well, I think I'm on house number two now…… I guess eventually I'll get it right.
Hi mandy,
You are up to the stage the Jews were at when they met Jesus.Difficult.
An unexpectedly meek Messiah with no political ambitions.
Annoyingly blessed.
Outspokenly critical.
Incisive and insightful.So with the thought they had the old backup plan they rejected him.
As a gentile you have no backup plan.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2008,07:59) HGi,
Scripture tells us Christ means Messiah
John 1:41
He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ).
John 4:25
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming ( He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”So to deny he is the messiah is to deny he is the Christ.
Which means that you must call him a liar because he said he is the ChristJn10
24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Which means that you have a problem that a man anointed by God and through who God did many wonders is labelled a liar by you?
The man who says he did, even though he didn't, is the liar.Stuart
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