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Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,09:07) Atheism is much more straightforward t8, because one doesn't have to think about such silly non-existent scenarios.
Let me reword this for you.Atheism closes its eyes and now we don't have to think about such things. It is more straightforward t8, because one can live in sin and not worry about eternal consequences. And it is too hard to see the truth, so with a narrow mind, it is easy to brand God as an evil dictator even though all life comes from him and the Universe belongs to him.
If we choose to think this creator of us and the universe is evil, then that means we can legitimately rebel against him using our moral understanding.
And now I have a question. If God gave you this moral understanding, then is it possible that your view of God is wrong. Perhaps it is you who is mixed up? After all, you cannot see the big picture and the smallest of pictures. You can only see the tiny world of Stu and in that small snippet of time/space, how can you say an eternal God is evil they way you view him.
It is easy to judge, but not so easy to see the truth.
Would a tree think you were evil for pruning/destroying branches for example. The tree might not understand that it makes it more fruitful.
You don't have the luxury of seeing the big picture and have no faith that God is good.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 16 2013,08:16) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,08:58) What is a foundation?
Enough said.Please don't attempt to build a house.
Step away from the hammer.
So you think the universe has piles that go deep into the…er…
Maybe it's turtles all the way down.
Hilarious, again. You use language you can't explain.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 16 2013,08:18) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,09:07) Let's pretend for a minute that your abominable Imaginary Friend actually exists.
Shall we also pretend that you exist too?
There is unambiguous evidence that I do something we tend to call “existence”.Shame that can't be said for your Imaginary Friend.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 16 2013,10:29) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,09:07) Atheism is much more straightforward t8, because one doesn't have to think about such silly non-existent scenarios.
Let me reword this for you.Atheism closes its eyes and now we don't have to think about such things.
I think with all the mindless religious dogmas around atheists are forced to open their eyes. The Judeo-christian god proposition is an abominable one, unfit for humanity. I don’t think you can even comprehend how I could make that claim. How could you when you have firmly shut your eyes, and your religion claims I am satan set against you? There is no reasoning out of that position. There is no reason to believe any of it has any merit either.Atheists confront the slightly unpleasant reality that this is the only life we get. That’s true for you as well as me, but you are in denial about it, instead you wish to sell your soul to an Imaginary Dictator for an imaginary reward, one that is based in selfish wishful thinking.
It’s not me with my eyes closed.
Quote It is more straightforward t8, because one can live in sin and not worry about eternal consequences.
So can you. But the word sin is a platitude, you can’t actually tell me what it means in practice. Since it means nothing, there is nothing sensible to say about “sin”. There is a good case to be made that actually the generalized idea of sin (to be “against god”, if that’s what it means) is a moral good.Quote And it is too hard to see the truth, so with a narrow mind, it is easy to brand God as an evil dictator even though all life comes from him and the Universe belongs to him.
I agree it’s easy to brand this god an evil dictator. What would it matter what it had “created”? Parents give birth to children, but that doesn’t give them the right to do whatever they please with them. A doctor may save your life, but you don’t go back and worship that doctor.You haven’t established that this god deserves anything better than a trial on charges of genocide. Evil dictators create things, that doesn’t make them exempt from ethical action.
Quote If we choose to think this creator of us and the universe is evil, then that means we can legitimately rebel against him using our moral understanding.
Well if it is evil, then all we can do is achieve a greater morality than it. I think that is the history of humanity actually. This is the most peaceful time to have ever lived, and it is also the time of the lowest levels of religious superstition. Coincidence? I think it is now that we are being forces to live globally that the religion which favours tribal allegiance is a deadly habit in a globalised world, and natural selection is getting rid of god belief. Of course islam has the bloodiest borders, so we are still at danger of those Abrahamists, some of whom still live in semi-tribalised conditions.Quote And now I have a question. If God gave you this moral understanding, then is it possible that your view of God is wrong. Perhaps it is you who is mixed up? After all, you cannot see the big picture and the smallest of pictures. You can only see the tiny world of Stu and in that small snippet of time/space, how can you say an eternal God is evil they way you view him.
This is a god that supposedly killed Uzzah when he was only trying to help, for the sake of Uzzah disobeying a command. Summary execution for disobeying arbitrary demands (arbitrary to Uzzah specifically) is an act of a fascist totalitarian dictator. It allegedly punished Eve for exercising her “god-given” curiosity. That’s fascism in action. It apparently did the same to Lot’s wife. And what did it send along with Jesus? Hell doesn’t exist until the arrival of Jesus; that is the formal introduction of this god’s system of threats. No more summary execution, but now punishment in burning sulfur.How is it that you do not view all this as evil?
Quote It is easy to judge, but not so easy to see the truth.
Easy to see both, I think. The true part is the good news: none of these claims of fallible humans are actually based in reality.Quote Would a tree think you were evil for pruning/destroying branches for example. The tree might not understand that it makes it more fruitful.
I knew you wouldn’t be able to resist an absurd analogy. Tell me about the consciousness and moral thinking of trees, t8.Tell me that Uzzah didn’t have any kind of right to understand why a command from a feckless god was a higher duty than offering assistance. That alone is the supreme abomination of a dictator. Some are more equal than others, right?
Quote You don't have the luxury of seeing the big picture and have no faith that God is good.
I see it as a good thing that I can tell when something is evil. Having a “faith” that might stunt that ability is something I am relieved not to suffer.I’m not attempting to deceive anyone here. The judgment that your Imaginary Friend is evil is exactly the same that most reasonable people would make if the same actions had been performed by humans. You seem to be claiming that we don’t have “the big picture”, but what is the morality of not explaining the complete moral picture? Is it wrong to help others if it contravenes an order? Why isn’t that explained by this god? How are we supposed to work that out? Is it wrong to express your natural curiosity about the world despite the desires of some to the contrary? Many fundies oppose scientific research for reasons you would find moronic: who should the scientists believe? The fundies who assert that their god says the scientists shouldn’t follow their curiosity, or the scientists who ignore the fundies and their warnings of their god’s wrath? What would you say to the fundies, and how is that any different from the situations faced by Lot’s wife or Eve? Perhaps you know “god’s will” better than the fundies do…even though you don’t think we have the “full picture”!
Did your god give
me the ability to see that it is evil? Why would it have done that?Don’t forget the good news of atheism: not all religions can be right, and almost certainly they're all as wrong as one another.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
When an electrician tells his adolescent son not to touch the wires,
and his son disobeys and dies; would you call the father evil?
He put the wires in the house, and said “DON'T TOUCH”?
God instructed the Levites to use wooden staves
in order to handle “The Ark” of God safely.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2013,16:38) Hi Stuart, When an electrician tells his adolescent son not to touch the wires,
and his son disobeys and dies; would you call the father evil?
He put the wires in the house, and said “DON'T TOUCH”?
God instructed the Levites to use wooden staves
in order to handle “The Ark” of God safely.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,
I would consider the electrician evil if he just stood there and watched his son touch them and die without stopping him.Considering the fact that he had the power to turn off the electricity, or stop the boy from touching the wires, it would be unconscienable to smugly watch him die merely because the boy had the nerve to disobey him.
Especially if he then said ” I told you not to touch the wires
so it is your fault you died.”Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 17 2013,21:36) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2013,16:38) Hi Stuart, When an electrician tells his adolescent son not to touch the wires,
and his son disobeys and dies; would you call the father evil?
He put the wires in the house, and said “DON'T TOUCH”?
God instructed the Levites to use wooden staves
in order to handle “The Ark” of God safely.God bless
Ed J
Hi Ed,
I would consider the electrician evil if he just stood there and watched his son touch them and die without stopping him.Considering the fact that he had the power to turn off the electricity, or stop the boy from touching the wires, it would be unconscienable to smugly watch him die merely because the boy had the nerve to disobey him.
Especially if he then said ” I told you not to touch the wires
so it is your fault you died.”Tim
Hi TimothyVI,“Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth
his secret unto his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7)
It is explain why God will do nothing in “Holy City Bible Code.”God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,18:30) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 16 2013,08:16) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,08:58) What is a foundation?
Enough said.Please don't attempt to build a house.
Step away from the hammer.
So you think the universe has piles that go deep into the…er…
Maybe it's turtles all the way down.
Hilarious, again. You use language you can't explain.
Stuart
Hilarious that you would think that.Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,19:12) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 16 2013,10:29) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,09:07) Atheism is much more straightforward t8, because one doesn't have to think about such silly non-existent scenarios.
Let me reword this for you.Atheism closes its eyes and now we don't have to think about such things.
I think with all the mindless religious dogmas around atheists are forced to open their eyes. The Judeo-christian god proposition is an abominable one, unfit for humanity. I don’t think you can even comprehend how I could make that claim. How could you when you have firmly shut your eyes, and your religion claims I am satan set against you? There is no reasoning out of that position. There is no reason to believe any of it has any merit either.Atheists confront the slightly unpleasant reality that this is the only life we get. That’s true for you as well as me, but you are in denial about it, instead you wish to sell your soul to an Imaginary Dictator for an imaginary reward, one that is based in selfish wishful thinking.
It’s not me with my eyes closed.
Quote It is more straightforward t8, because one can live in sin and not worry about eternal consequences.
So can you. But the word sin is a platitude, you can’t actually tell me what it means in practice. Since it means nothing, there is nothing sensible to say about “sin”. There is a good case to be made that actually the generalized idea of sin (to be “against god”, if that’s what it means) is a moral good.Quote And it is too hard to see the truth, so with a narrow mind, it is easy to brand God as an evil dictator even though all life comes from him and the Universe belongs to him.
I agree it’s easy to brand this god an evil dictator. What would it matter what it had “created”? Parents give birth to children, but that doesn’t give them the right to do whatever they please with them. A doctor may save your life, but you don’t go back and worship that doctor.You haven’t established that this god deserves anything better than a trial on charges of genocide. Evil dictators create things, that doesn’t make them exempt from ethical action.
Quote If we choose to think this creator of us and the universe is evil, then that means we can legitimately rebel against him using our moral understanding.
Well if it is evil, then all we can do is achieve a greater morality than it. I think that is the history of humanity actually. This is the most peaceful time to have ever lived, and it is also the time of the lowest levels of religious superstition. Coincidence? I think it is now that we are being forces to live globally that the religion which favours tribal allegiance is a deadly habit in a globalised world, and natural selection is getting rid of god belief. Of course islam has the bloodiest borders, so we are still at danger of those Abrahamists, some of whom still live in semi-tribalised conditions.Quote And now I have a question. If God gave you this moral understanding, then is it possible that your view of God is wrong. Perhaps it is you who is mixed up? After all, you cannot see the big picture and the smallest of pictures. You can only see the tiny world of Stu and in that small snippet of time/space, how can you say an eternal God is evil they way you view him.
This is a god that supposedly killed Uzzah when he was only trying to help, for the sake of Uzzah disobeying a command. Summary execution for disobeying arbitrary demands (arbitrary to Uzzah specifically) is an act of a fascist totalitarian dictator. It allegedly punished Eve for exercising her “god-given” curiosity. That’s fascism in action. It apparently did the same to Lot’s wife. And what did it send along with Jesus? Hell doesn’t exist until the arrival of Jesus; that is the formal introduction of this god’s system of threats. No more summary execution, but now punishment in burning sulfur.How is it that you do not view all this as evil?
Quote It is easy to judge, but not so easy to see the truth.
Easy to see both, I think. The true part is the good news: none of these claims of fallible humans are actually based in reality.Quote Would a tree think you were evil for pruning/destroying branches for example. The tree might not understand that it makes it more fruitful.
I knew you wouldn’t be able to resist an absurd analogy. Tell me about the consciousness and moral thinking of trees, t8.Tell me that Uzzah didn’t have any kind of right to understand why a command from a feckless god was a higher duty than offering assistance. That alone is the supreme abomination of a dictator. Some are more equal than others, right?
Quote You don't have the luxury of seeing the big picture and have no faith that God is good.
I see it as a good thing that I can tell when something is evil. Having a “faith” that might stunt that ability is something I am relieved not to suffer.I’m not attempting to deceive anyone here. The judgment that your Imaginary Friend is evil is exactly the same that most reasonable people would make if the same actions had been performed by humans. You seem to be claiming that we don’t have “the big picture”, but what is the morality of not explaining the complete moral picture? Is it wrong to help others if it contravenes an order? Why isn’t that explained by this god? How are we supposed to work that out? Is it wrong to express your natural curiosity about the world despite the desires of some to the contrary? Many fundies oppose scientific research for reasons you would find moronic: who should the scientists believe? The fundies who assert that their god says the scientists shouldn’t follow their curiosity, or the scientists who ignore the fundies and their warnings of their god’s wrath? What would you say to the fundies, and how is that
any different from the situations faced by Lot’s wife or Eve? Perhaps you know “god’s will” better than the fundies do…even though you don’t think we have the “full picture”!Did your god give me the ability to see that it is evil? Why would it have done that?
Don’t forget the good news of atheism: not all religions can be right, and almost certainly they're all as wrong as one another.
Stuart
Seriously dude.That is a long post for an argument against unicorns.
Why do you even bother if it is just fairies and unicorns.
Funny.
I might read the post later, but doing something more important. Watching Band of Brothers.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 20 2013,19:31) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,18:30) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 16 2013,08:16) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,08:58) What is a foundation?
Enough said.Please don't attempt to build a house.
Step away from the hammer.
So you think the universe has piles that go deep into the…er…
Maybe it's turtles all the way down.
Hilarious, again. You use language you can't explain.
Stuart
Hilarious that you would think that.
So you agree that you can't explain what you mean by a foundation, or how the concept is relevant to whatever you were writing about?Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 20 2013,19:34) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,19:12) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 16 2013,10:29) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2013,09:07) Atheism is much more straightforward t8, because one doesn't have to think about such silly non-existent scenarios.
Let me reword this for you.Atheism closes its eyes and now we don't have to think about such things.
I think with all the mindless religious dogmas around atheists are forced to open their eyes. The Judeo-christian god proposition is an abominable one, unfit for humanity. I don’t think you can even comprehend how I could make that claim. How could you when you have firmly shut your eyes, and your religion claims I am satan set against you? There is no reasoning out of that position. There is no reason to believe any of it has any merit either.Atheists confront the slightly unpleasant reality that this is the only life we get. That’s true for you as well as me, but you are in denial about it, instead you wish to sell your soul to an Imaginary Dictator for an imaginary reward, one that is based in selfish wishful thinking.
It’s not me with my eyes closed.
Quote It is more straightforward t8, because one can live in sin and not worry about eternal consequences.
So can you. But the word sin is a platitude, you can’t actually tell me what it means in practice. Since it means nothing, there is nothing sensible to say about “sin”. There is a good case to be made that actually the generalized idea of sin (to be “against god”, if that’s what it means) is a moral good.Quote And it is too hard to see the truth, so with a narrow mind, it is easy to brand God as an evil dictator even though all life comes from him and the Universe belongs to him.
I agree it’s easy to brand this god an evil dictator. What would it matter what it had “created”? Parents give birth to children, but that doesn’t give them the right to do whatever they please with them. A doctor may save your life, but you don’t go back and worship that doctor.You haven’t established that this god deserves anything better than a trial on charges of genocide. Evil dictators create things, that doesn’t make them exempt from ethical action.
Quote If we choose to think this creator of us and the universe is evil, then that means we can legitimately rebel against him using our moral understanding.
Well if it is evil, then all we can do is achieve a greater morality than it. I think that is the history of humanity actually. This is the most peaceful time to have ever lived, and it is also the time of the lowest levels of religious superstition. Coincidence? I think it is now that we are being forces to live globally that the religion which favours tribal allegiance is a deadly habit in a globalised world, and natural selection is getting rid of god belief. Of course islam has the bloodiest borders, so we are still at danger of those Abrahamists, some of whom still live in semi-tribalised conditions.Quote And now I have a question. If God gave you this moral understanding, then is it possible that your view of God is wrong. Perhaps it is you who is mixed up? After all, you cannot see the big picture and the smallest of pictures. You can only see the tiny world of Stu and in that small snippet of time/space, how can you say an eternal God is evil they way you view him.
This is a god that supposedly killed Uzzah when he was only trying to help, for the sake of Uzzah disobeying a command. Summary execution for disobeying arbitrary demands (arbitrary to Uzzah specifically) is an act of a fascist totalitarian dictator. It allegedly punished Eve for exercising her “god-given” curiosity. That’s fascism in action. It apparently did the same to Lot’s wife. And what did it send along with Jesus? Hell doesn’t exist until the arrival of Jesus; that is the formal introduction of this god’s system of threats. No more summary execution, but now punishment in burning sulfur.How is it that you do not view all this as evil?
Quote It is easy to judge, but not so easy to see the truth.
Easy to see both, I think. The true part is the good news: none of these claims of fallible humans are actually based in reality.Quote Would a tree think you were evil for pruning/destroying branches for example. The tree might not understand that it makes it more fruitful.
I knew you wouldn’t be able to resist an absurd analogy. Tell me about the consciousness and moral thinking of trees, t8.Tell me that Uzzah didn’t have any kind of right to understand why a command from a feckless god was a higher duty than offering assistance. That alone is the supreme abomination of a dictator. Some are more equal than others, right?
Quote You don't have the luxury of seeing the big picture and have no faith that God is good.
I see it as a good thing that I can tell when something is evil. Having a “faith” that might stunt that ability is something I am relieved not to suffer.I’m not attempting to deceive anyone here. The judgment that your Imaginary Friend is evil is exactly the same that most reasonable people would make if the same actions had been performed by humans. You seem to be claiming that we don’t have “the big picture”, but what is the morality of not explaining the complete moral picture? Is it wrong to help others if it contravenes an order? Why isn’t that explained by this god? How are we supposed to work that out? Is it wrong to express your natural curiosity about the world despite the desires of some to the contrary? Many fundies oppose scientific research for reasons you would find moronic: who should the scientists believe? The fundies who asser
t that their god says the scientists shouldn’t follow their curiosity, or the scientists who ignore the fundies and their warnings of their god’s wrath? What would you say to the fundies, and how is that any different from the situations faced by Lot’s wife or Eve? Perhaps you know “god’s will” better than the fundies do…even though you don’t think we have the “full picture”!Did your god give me the ability to see that it is evil? Why would it have done that?
Don’t forget the good news of atheism: not all religions can be right, and almost certainly they're all as wrong as one another.
Stuart
Seriously dude.That is a long post for an argument against unicorns.
Why do you even bother if it is just fairies and unicorns.
Funny.
I might read the post later, but doing something more important. Watching Band of Brothers.
I acknowledge your lack of interest in defending your claims.Stuart
Ha ha ha.
If you don't have a foundation to any plan, theory, or structure, then it has no context for a start. And it also proves little as far as a belief system such as yours.
Thanks for being honest, and that is a cheerful laugh from me BTW.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 20 2013,20:11) Ha ha ha. If you don't have a foundation to any plan, theory, or structure, then it has no context for a start. And it also proves little as far as a belief system such as yours.
Thanks for being honest, and that is a cheerful laugh from me BTW.
What on earth are you on about t8? Do you think platitudes are impressive to people who can think?Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 20 2013,20:13) Stu. God loves you, even when you are grumpy. Even when you are grumpy a lot.
And when you are grumpy a lot t8, what signs do you take as an indication that the god still loves you?Does it think about maybe not burning you in sulfur after all?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 20 2013,21:19) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 20 2013,20:13) Stu. God loves you, even when you are grumpy. Even when you are grumpy a lot.
And when you are grumpy a lot t8, what signs do you take as an indication that the god still loves you?Does it think about maybe not burning you in sulfur after all?
Stuart
All whom God loves, he disciplines.Wait a sec.
Indeed. Wait a sec.
If you love something set it free, but if it doesn't come back then wait till it dies then dig it up and set fire to it in sulfur.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 21 2013,20:24) Indeed. Wait a sec. If you love something set it free, but if it doesn't come back then wait till it dies then dig it up and set fire to it in sulfur.
Stuart
Wait a 2 secs.If you love something, set it free.
If it doesn't return, then it rejects the God who set it free. Thus destruction is what it has freely chosen as it believes will happen anyway. To not destroy it is to not set it free to be separate from God because God is the God of the living.And fire is the process for this destruction and breaking the elements up to be reused. It is called the Second Death in scripture. The first death is body and soul separation, and the second death is soul and spirit separation. Death in scriptural Greek refers to separation. i.e., physical death, spiritual death, dead to sin, dead to law, etc.
And even though the body dies, the soul is still there. And it is only God who can destroy the soul in fire. And before that second death, you are judged so that you can see why this fate is going to happen. God gives you a chance to make your view known to all who are living.
This is a more accurate biblical view for you to ponder.
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