The Peshitta

[Lightenup]

Mike,
1. The Father is the Almighty God, Jesus is the Almighty Only Begotten God.
2. Only according to His glorified humanity.
3. They will be brothers according to His glorified humanity, the elect will be a kingdom of priests for the Father and the Son according to His divinity.

[mikeboll64]

Hmmmm………..  I don't remember any scriptures that speak of Jesus' “glorified humanity” now that he is back in heaven.  Perhaps you could quote those scriptures for me?

And if you can't, then we must take away your made up disclaimer and get down to the brass tacks of the issue, which is:  You think that the elect WILL become BROTHERS of GOD ALMIGHTY.

Can you live with that belief, Kathi?

Even if they are brothers of Jesus “only according to his humanity”, your understanding still means that human beings will become brothers of God Most High.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 03 2012,12:58)

In the sense of an “eternal” Father, who did not have to be begotten from someone and was always a Father…His Son could have ALWAYS been within Him and must have been within Him. For to even be an ETERNAL Father, He HAD to have an offspring eternally within Him otherwise at one point, He was not a Father and could not be considered an eternal “Father,” an eternal being, yes, but not an eternal Father.

Can't answer everything you have written it would waste too much time.

So I took the first thing that required an answer and here it is.

You say that God has always been a father and that the son has always proceeded. Where do you get this idea?

Does it not say, “today I have become your father”.

I don't remember reading “I have always been your Father”, or “Jesus has always existed”, or “Jesus precedes from the Father and always has”, or “He is as eternal as the Father”.

Sorry but these are your ideas and the ideas of others. I myself prefer scripture and the doctrine of the apostles.

[Lightenup]

t8,
you say:

Quote

Can't answer everything you have written it would waste too much time.

Is that your way of saying that you don't know what to say? You are stumped??

you ask:

Quote

Does it not say, “today I have become your father”.

Actually the Greek does not have the word 'father' in the first part of the verse that I believe you are referring to. The proper translation is “Today I have begotten you.” See here:

Heb 1:5
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

The second part was said to Solomon in the OT and in Hebrews is applied to the Jesus. This could have been said in the OT to Solomon with a prophetic implication to the Son according to the flesh since it has a future tense to it.

You say that you prefer scripture and the doctrine of the apostles and that is good. However, sometimes our translations are saying two or more different things between themselves. It helps to analyze why the different words are used and check out the Greek and the Aramaic for clues as to which way is the most literal and accurate.

Here is what Lactantius, a very good orator of the third and fourth century has to say:

Chap. XXIX.—Of the Christian Religion, and of the Union of Jesus with the Father.

Some one may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son: which assertion has driven many into the greatest error. For when the things which we say seem to them probable, they consider that we fail in this one point alone, that we confess that there is another God, and that He is mortal. We have already spoken of His mortality: now let us teach concerning His unity. When we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each: because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father, since the name of Father886 cannot be given without the Son, nor can the Son be begotten without the Father. Since, therefore, the Father makes the Son, and the Son the Father, they both have one mind, one spirit, one substance; but the former887 is as it were an overflowing fountain, the latter888 as a stream flowing forth from it: the former as the sun, the latter as it were a ray889 extended from the sun. And since He is both faithful to the Most High Father, and beloved by Him, He is not separated from Him; just as the stream is not separated from the fountain, nor the ray from the sun: for the water of the fountain is in the stream, and the light of the sun is in the ray: just as the voice cannot be separated from the mouth, nor the strength or hand from the body. When, therefore, He is also spoken of by the prophets as the hand, and strength, and word of God, there is plainly no separation; for the tongue, which is the minister of speech, and the hand, in which the strength is situated, are inseparable portions of the body.

We may use an example more closely connected with us. When any one has a son whom he especially loves, who is still in the house, and in the power890 of his father, although he concede to him the name and power of a master, yet by the civil law the house is one, and one person is called master. So this world891 is the one house of God; and the Son and the Father, who unanimously inhabit the world, are one God, for the one is as two, and the two are as one. Nor is that wonderful, since the Son is in the Father, for the Father loves the Son, and the Father is in the Son; for He faithfully obeys the will of the Father, nor does He ever do nor has done anything except what the Father either willed or commanded. Lastly, that the Father and the Son are but one God, Isaiah showed in that passage which we have brought forward before,892 when he said:893 “They shall fall down unto Thee, and make supplication unto Thee, since God is in Thee, and there is no other God besides Thee.” And he also speaks to the same purport in another place:894 “Thus saith God the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, the everlasting God; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” When he had set forth two persons, one of God the King, that is, Christ, and the other of God the Father, who after His passion raised Him from the dead, as we have said895 that the prophet Hosea showed,896 who said, “I will redeem Him from the power of the grave:” nevertheless, with reference to each person, he introduced the words, “and beside me there is no God,” when he might have said “beside us;” but it was not right that a separation of so close a relationship should be made by the use of the plural number. For there is one God alone, free, most high, without any origin; for He Himself is the origin of all things, and in Him at once both the Son and all things are contained. Wherefore, since the mind and will of the one is in the other, or rather, since there is one in both, 133both are justly called one God; for whatever is in the Father897 flows on to the Son, and whatever is in the Son descends from the Father. Therefore that highest and matchless God cannot be worshipped except through the Son. He who thinks that he worships the Father only, as he does not worship the Son, so he does not worship even the Father. But he who receives the Son, and bears His name, he truly together with the Son worships the Father also, since the Son is the ambassador, and messenger, and priest of the Most High Father. He is the door of the greatest temple, He the way of light, He the guide to salvation, He the gate of life.

from: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.iii.ii.iv.xxix.html

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I don't remember reading “I have always been your Father”, or “Jesus has always existed”, or “Jesus precedes from the Father and always has”, or “He is as eternal as the Father”.

Jesus says that He is the 'First and the Last' which Barnes the Bible Commentator mentions the intention here:
I am the first – (See the notes at Isaiah 41:4).

And I am the last – In Isaiah 41:4, this is expressed 'with the last;' in Revelation 1:8, 'I am Alpha and Omega.' The sense is, that God existed before all things, and will exist forever.
from here: http://bible.cc/isaiah/44-6.htm

Rev 1:8
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

You say that you prefer scripture and the doctrine of the apostles but it seems you only prefer some scripture and some doctrine of the apostles. Here is scripture:

Here is a compilation of the several passages and/or scriptural reasonings that suggest that Jesus Christ is deity.

Isaiah 54:5
“For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.

Mar
k 12:35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’i
37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Luke 1:11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. 12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. 13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God . 17“It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord .”

The “Lord their God” here is the same one that John goes before as a forerunner…i.e. Jesus.

“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord;

Jesus speaking:
Matt 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “ I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

John 20:26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel,preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) —37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40“God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41not to all the people, but to ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:2 NAS
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle–sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–

1 Cor 7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman ; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price ; do not become slaves of men.

Colossians 4:12 NAS
Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bond-slave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

This shows that Jesus is not just a mere man like us or it wouldn't be a good thing to be His slave.

Philippians 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

2 Thessalonians 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

If you look at the Greek, you will see that all the verbs that are in these two verses are written in the singular form, yet there are two subjects which would normally require the verbs to be written in plural form. This suggests a compound unity of two persons, acting as one person

Tit 2:13, 14
…while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, “that he (Jesus) might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works”.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Jude 1:4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God i
nto licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Deut 10:17 “For the LORD (Jehovah) your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2012,23:36)

For when the things which we say seem to them probable, they consider that we fail in this one point alone, that we confess that there is another God, and that He is mortal.

That is one of the major reasons that non-believers don't convert to Christianity.  Sensible people find it hard to take people seriously when they confess ONE God, but then add this in small print:  Really there are TWO.  

Your author points out what is just common sense, Kathi.  The people to whom they spoke found all other things about Christianity “probable”……………. UNTIL they started talking about ONE God who is really TWO Gods.  At that point, sensible people walk away rolling their eyes.

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2012,23:36)

When, therefore, He is also spoken of by the prophets as the hand, and strength, and word of God, there is plainly no separation; for the tongue, which is the minister of speech, and the hand, in which the strength is situated, are inseparable portions of the body.

But does that same reasoning also work with Cyrus, who is also called the arm of Jehovah?  Or do these “proof texts” only work with Jesus?

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2012,23:36)

….they both have one mind……… ….He faithfully obeys the will of the Father…….

Huh?  

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2012,23:36)

…….he introduced the words, “and beside me there is no God,” when he might have said “beside us;” but it was not right that a separation of so close a relationship should be made by the use of the plural number.

 So they are really two, but really one.  Makes perfect sense!  

Kathi, I am forever wondering how intelligent people buy into this obvious nonsense.

We have but one Most High God.  His name is Jehovah, and He has a Son named Jesus.  The Son of God is not the God he is the Son of.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
You talk about sensible, intelligent people not 'getting' supernatural concepts. There is a whole lot in the Bible that you DO believe that 'sensible people' do not 'get.' You believe that water became wine, the Red Sea parted, a blind man sees when mud is applied to his eyes, the demons flee in the name of Jesus, a man existed in the form of God before He took on the form of man, a man dies but three days later is walking and talking on earth again, the presence of God fills the temple, men fall over when another says 'I AM,' etc. Or maybe you don't believe these things. Do you believe in supernatural things happening, Mike? If so, your argument implying nothing being true unless sensible people can find it reasonable is ineffective.

2 Cor 4:4 Those whose intellects The God of this world has blinded, because they do not believe, lest the light of The Gospel of the glory of The Messiah, who is the image of God, should dawn upon them.

1 Cor 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Quote

The Son of God is not the God he is the Son of.

The Son of God is not the God He is the Son of, He is the only Begotten God of the God He is the Son of.
You have some sort of blinding to this truth, Mike. That is why you keep writing that statement in the quote perhaps. Lactantius knows that the Son is a second God yet inseparable to His Father. They are interdependent, not independent. They both have one mind which is in the sense of unity, I believe, two minds in agreement always…as one mind.

Besides Me there is no God…

To most Christians, the “ME” there, is One that has within His bosom, the only begotten God. The “ME” is not without the only begotten God within His bosom.

Regarding arms, Cyrus was an earthly 'type' of the heavenly 'arm of YHWH.' He was an earthly type and not the real deal. Many earthy things are a type of the heavenly but don't equate them with the heavenly. The heavenly is far greater.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 09 2012,12:55)

Mike, You talk about sensible, intelligent people not 'getting' supernatural concepts.

Not at all, Kathi.  I consider myself a sensible person, which is why I accept the supernatural creation of the universe, and all things in it.  A non-sensible person believes that all these things just “happened”, with no specific rhyme or reason.

I also believe that the God who created all these things can do anything He wants to do, whether that be enabling one of His servants to walk on water, or enabling him to raise a man from the dead.

On the other hand, a sensible person who believes the Hebrew scriptures will NOT believe that the ONE God they worshiped was secretly TWO Gods.  For example, a sensible person does not read words like “He” and “Him”, and understand those words as “They” and “Them”.

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 09 2012,12:55)

The Son of God is not the God He is the Son of, He is the only Begotten God of the God He is the Son of. You have some sort of blinding to this truth, Mike. That is why you keep writing that statement in the quote perhaps.

Kathi, Trinitarians believe that there exists only ONE Most High God.  They believe that there exist THREE different PERSONS that make up this ONE Most High God.

It is YOU who is the odd man out on this one, for YOU believe in TWO, entirely different Most High Gods.  

So perhaps my statement that the Son can't be the God he is the Son of doesn't necessarily apply to you, but my statement that there is but ONE Most High God, and that ONE has a Son named Jesus does apply to you.

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 09 2012,12:55)

Regarding arms, Cyrus was an earthly 'type' of the heavenly 'arm of YHWH.' He was an earthly type and not the real deal.

So like I said, these kinds of biased “proof texts” only work in the case of Jesus, right?  

Jesus was a human being when God performed miracles and signs THROUGH HIM, right? (Acts 2:22)

John 12
37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
   and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

So it seems that Jesus, like Cyrus, was an earthly 'type' of the heavenly 'arm of YHWH', at least in this case.  He MIGHT have been the “arm of Jehovah” in other circumstances as well, but we can't be sure of it from scripture.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
The Hebrews worshiped the one they called 'The Word of YHWH' as well as the one they called YHWH as per the targums. To see this clearly, we need to go back to that long list of Targum occurrences of the 'Word of YHWH.' I will start a thread for this as a database that focuses on that list that I put on here.

So, the sensible Hebrew person will understand 'the Word of YHWH' to be YHWH also, in some sense.

Also, did you know that trinitarians speak of one person who is God the Father, and another person who is God, the Son, and another person who is God, the Holy Spirit?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2012,14:39)

Mike, The Hebrews worshiped the one they called 'The Word of YHWH' as well as the one they called YHWH as per the targums. So, the sensible Hebrew person will understand 'the Word of YHWH' to be YHWH also, in some sense.

Which is it?  Did they worship the Word AS WELL AS worshiping YHWH – meaning they worshiped TWO as God?

Or did they consider the Word TO BE YHWH – meaning they worshiped ONE as God?  

It can't be both things you've claimed, Kathi.  It must be one or the other.  (Hint:  The Jews worshiped only ONE as their God – not TWO.)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2012,14:39)

Also, did you know that trinitarians speak of one person who is God the Father, and another person who is God, the Son, and another person who is God, the Holy Spirit?

Yes, I knew that.  But how many Gods do they worship?

[Lightenup]

Mike,
The Trinitarians worship more than one person united in one Godhead. So do I!

[mikeboll64]

Kathi,

How many Almighty Gods do Trinitarians worship?

[Lightenup]

Mike,
They worhip one Almighty God as the Father, together with His Son and the Holy Spirit as a compound unity.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 16 2012,14:13)

Mike, They worship one Almighty God…………….

So then YOUR doctrine is DIFFERENT than theirs, considering that YOU worship TWO Almighty Gods.

And in THEIR case, they believe the Son of God is the very God he is the Son of – since they believe in only ONE Almighty God.

So you can see that THEIR doctrine is asinine.  But at least THEY acknowledge the existence of only ONE Almighty God – which IS in accordance with scripture.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
I think the only difference is that I do not call the Holy Spirit a person like the Father and Son are persons. I see Him as more of the inner person of both in unity as one Spirit in some contexts or the inner person distinctly of the Father or distinctly of the Son.

But this has gone way off subject. Back to the Peshitta…please

If you want to talk about the trinitarians, go to the appropriate thread or go to our discussion thread.

[theodorej]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,15:37)

Mike, I think the only difference is that I do not call the Holy Spirit a person like the Father and Son are persons. I see Him as more of the inner person of both in unity as one Spirit in some contexts or the inner person distinctly of the Father or distinctly of the Son. But this has gone way off subject.  Back to the Peshitta…please If you want to talk about the trinitarians, go to the appropriate thread or go to our discussion thread.

Hi Kathi …. This issue of a triune God is never ending and loaded with conflict because of false doctrine and dogma…. Just suppose we examine the scriptures… In Genesis … The eternal told moses that he was “The Iam that Iam”… and numerous mentions of singularity… In John we see …Jesus indentified as “The Word”(eg.The word of the eternal)…Let us examine the possibility that the oneness of the Almighty is comprised of his word and the essense of his power is the spirit that he is…It is through his word that he creates and with his spirit it happens…what do you think?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,22:37)

Mike, I think the only difference is that I do not call the Holy Spirit a person like the Father and Son are persons.

Kathi,

If YOU believe in TWO distinct Almighty Gods, and the Trinitarians only believe in ONE, then THAT is your main difference with them.

But I agree that this is off-topic.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
It's semantics, that's all.
Back to the Peshitta…

[Lightenup]

Hi Ted,
Where would you like to discuss it? This is the Peshitta thread. Let me know, thx.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,15:07)

It's semantics, that's all.

Hmmmm……………

ONE Almighty God, or TWO Almighty Gods? Only semantics, huh?

[Lightenup]

Yes Mike, semantics. Move on if you have nothing to say about the Peshitta here, please.

[Author]

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