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LU,
continued from above.
Quote 11I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. The words “human origin” let you know he is speaking of the source of the words.
Kerwin,
The source of the words are from Jesus Christ whom Paul infers as someone other than human but whom you claim is merely human.You are really trying to force this text to fit into your doctrine, Kerwin. Ultimately you can say that the source of all things are from God, even any men's teachings because God made men able to teach.
Paul is clearly understanding Jesus as someone other than just man although He is man, He is not just man.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,02:06) Kerwin,
The source of the words are from Jesus Christ whom Paul infers as someone other than human but whom you claim is merely human.You are really trying to force this text to fit into your doctrine, Kerwin. Ultimately you can say that the source of all things are from God, even any men's teachings because God made men able to teach.
Paul is clearly understanding Jesus as someone other than just man although He is man, He is not just man.
LU,I do not have to force the text as Jesus claimed the source of his words and actions is God. Jesus is man that mediates between humanity and God.
Kerwin,
Do you think that Jesus was ever the source of His own words?Are you ever the source of your own words?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,07:41) Kerwin,
Do you think that Jesus was ever the source of His own words?Are you ever the source of your own words?
LU,This is what is written:
John 14:10
King James Version (KJV)10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jesus does not sin though he was tempted as we so his words have continuously come from the Spirit that God dwells in him by.
Kerwin,
What if the Spirit of God gives the Son freedom to speak and rule as He sees fit in certain situations, especially after His resurrection when He had been given all authority? Then the Son is the source of His own words and actions.See Kerwin, if person (A) was your authority that you were required to listen to and obey, and person (A) was telling you everything to say and do through a speaker in your ear, and person (A) was telling you word for word and step by step, that is one thing; but if person (A) said that it was their desire that you just do what you think best and give you freedom to speak and act as you see fit during a certain period…well all that you said and did would be under the person (A)'s directives but one way would be speaking person (A)'s words and the other way you would be speaking your own words and would be originating from YOU. Both ways would be according to person (A's) authority.
Do you understand this?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,08:14) Kerwin,
What if the Spirit of God gives the Son freedom to speak and rule as He sees fit in certain situations, especially after His resurrection when He had been given all authority? Then the Son is the source of His own words and actions.See Kerwin, if person (A) was your authority that you were required to listen to and obey, and person (A) was telling you everything to say and do through a speaker in your ear, and person (A) was telling you word for word and step by step, that is one thing; but if person (A) said that it was their desire that you just do what you think best and give you freedom to speak and act as you see fit during a certain period…well all that you said and did would be under the person (A)'s directives but one way would be speaking person (A)'s words and the other way you would be speaking your own words and would be originating from YOU. Both ways would be according to person (A's) authority.
Do you understand this?
LU,I am not understanding it right now, but perhaps later.
Jesus loves God and does as he commands, nothing that Jesus does comes from the flesh. That which comes from the flesh is from man. That which comes from the Spirit is from God. These things I understand.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 18 2013,23:23) kerwin Jesus is theos in nature just as His Father is. Heb 1:3
Is “theos” a nature?I believe Jesus has a spirit nature, just like his God who brought him forth into existence. And naturally, all of God's other spirit sons also share His spirit nature.
But “theos” is not a nature, Kathi. It is a title meaning “mighty one”. Likewise “mighty one” is not a “nature”.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2013,00:51) I don't know where it is used of Isaiah or Phillip.
From the site I linked for you:Another interesting use of “marya” is found in John 12:20-21 of the Sinaitic Palimpsest or Syriac Sinatic manuscript. Below is Murdock’s translation with the palimpsest’s use of “marya”.
John 12:20-21 – And there were also among the people, some who had come up to worship at the feast. These came, and approached Philip, who was of Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him: My lord [marya], we are desirous to see Jesus.
Why is “marya” used for Philip, a mere man?! It is hardly conceivable that the Aramaic scribe was distracted and made a mistake. A more logical conclusion is that the word “marya” is not exclusively used for Yahweh, but it is similar in function to the Greek “kurios” which is used for Yahweh and man.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2013,00:51) He says that MYRA is not the emphatic 'Lord' and the lexicon is wrong about that.
I'm sorry, did you say “lexicon” – as in singular? What you probably meant to say was, “He says that MYRA is not the emphatic 'Lord' and EVERY ARAMAIC LEXICON KNOWN TO MAN is wrong about that.”
Mike,
One who is inherently theos has a specific nature. Those who are not inherently theos do not have the same nature of one who is inherently theos.
I believe that the Father and the Son are both inherently theos and share the specific nature which one would have to have in order to be inherently theos.Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2013,00:42) Yes, God the Father and the only begotten God do not have a body, much less blood, as bodies are created.
What? Kathi, you don't believe Jesus has a body in heaven right now? Read Phil 3:21.Also, I never knew that you think God doesn't have a body. Interesting.
Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2013,21:47) Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,08:14) Kerwin,
What if the Spirit of God gives the Son freedom to speak and rule as He sees fit in certain situations, especially after His resurrection when He had been given all authority? Then the Son is the source of His own words and actions.See Kerwin, if person (A) was your authority that you were required to listen to and obey, and person (A) was telling you everything to say and do through a speaker in your ear, and person (A) was telling you word for word and step by step, that is one thing; but if person (A) said that it was their desire that you just do what you think best and give you freedom to speak and act as you see fit during a certain period…well all that you said and did would be under the person (A)'s directives but one way would be speaking person (A)'s words and the other way you would be speaking your own words and would be originating from YOU. Both ways would be according to person (A's) authority.
Do you understand this?
LU,I am not understanding it right now, but perhaps later.
Jesus loves God and does as he commands, nothing that Jesus does comes from the flesh. That which comes from the flesh is from man. That which comes from the Spirit is from God. These things I understand.
Ok Kerwin,
I will say it in another way.If an actor only did the will of the director then he would do as the director directed him to do. Sometimes an actor's actions and words are in the script and sometimes the director gives the actor direction to adlib, in other words…use his own words and not the words of the script. So whether the actor was following the script perfectly when he was supposed to or ad-libbing when he was supposed to, he was always doing the will of the director. Sometimes the words and actions were from the director who chose the script and sometimes the words were directly from the actor himself. See?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2013,15:57) 1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father……….. ……the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
The words seem clear enough to me, Kathi. Kerwin has a knack for understanding very simple words in a nonsensical way – in order to protect his doctrines. His responses to this post, and his implication that Jesus only ever spoke the words of his God, are both asinine, to say the least.I wonder if Kerwin thinks it was the Father's words Jesus was speaking in Matthew 26:39 and 42?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2013,01:42) Kerwin, Quote I agree with these words but not the claim that the same person, who is intrinsically royal can also be intrinsically commoner at the same time. In the analogy, in the right kingdom, the person is inherently a man of royalty. In a completely different kingdom, the same person is not a person who is inherently a man of royalty in that country for he is a commoner since he does not have the royal blood in him that the royals in that country have. Read this about what Jesus says:
John 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”you said:
Quote God does not have a body, much less blood, as bodies are created.
Yes, God the Father and the only begotten God do not have a body, much less blood, as bodies are created. That is why the only begotten God had to be incarnated into a created body in order to have blood which He could shed for the remission of the sins of all and in order to walk with the limits of flesh so He could be like us but be tempted and still fulfill the law.you said:
Quote I am claiming Jesus is 100% man, God is 100% God, and that the two work together as one. If Jesus is only a man then who did Saul meet on the road to Damascus that called Saul to be an apostle that said He was Jesus of Nazareth?
Acts 22
6“As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. 7And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ 8And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ 9Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understandb the voice of the one who was speaking to me. 10And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ 11And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.12“And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
17“When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 18and saw him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.’ 19And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 20And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ 21And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”
Read the context Mike.I said “God the Father and the only begotten God do not have a body, much less blood, as bodies are created. That is why the only begotten God had to be incarnated into a created body in order to have blood which He could shed for the remission of the sins of all and in order to walk with the limits of flesh so He could be like us but be tempted and still fulfill the law. “
I was talking about a 'corporeal' body. The Son eventually takes on a corporeal body when conceived in Mary and after that corporeal body dies, it is restored to the Son as a heavenly body. The Son continues to be both God and man eternally because the Son of Man was given eternal life. The Son of God always was an eternal life.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2013,22:35) Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2013,15:57) 1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father……….. ……the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
The words seem clear enough to me, Kathi. Kerwin has a knack for understanding very simple words in a nonsensical way – in order to protect his doctrines. His responses to this post, and his implication that Jesus only ever spoke the words of his God, are both asinine, to say the least.I wonder if Kerwin thinks it was the Father's words Jesus was speaking in Matthew 26:39 and 42?
Mike,
I believe that Jesus is given liberty to speak His own mind a lot. He is not a puppet or a robot.Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,09:32) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2013,21:47) Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,08:14) Kerwin,
What if the Spirit of God gives the Son freedom to speak and rule as He sees fit in certain situations, especially after His resurrection when He had been given all authority? Then the Son is the source of His own words and actions.See Kerwin, if person (A) was your authority that you were required to listen to and obey, and person (A) was telling you everything to say and do through a speaker in your ear, and person (A) was telling you word for word and step by step, that is one thing; but if person (A) said that it was their desire that you just do what you think best and give you freedom to speak and act as you see fit during a certain period…well all that you said and did would be under the person (A)'s directives but one way would be speaking person (A)'s words and the other way you would be speaking your own words and would be originating from YOU. Both ways would be according to person (A's) authority.
Do you understand this?
LU,I am not understanding it right now, but perhaps later.
Jesus loves God and does as he commands, nothing that Jesus does comes from the flesh. That which comes from the flesh is from man. That which comes from the Spirit is from God. These things I understand.
Ok Kerwin,
I will say it in another way.If an actor only did the will of the director then he would do as the director directed him to do. Sometimes an actor's actions and words are in the script and sometimes the director gives the actor direction to adlib, in other words…use his own words and not the words of the script. So whether the actor was following the script perfectly when he was supposed to or ad-libbing when he was supposed to, he was always doing the will of the director. Sometimes the words and actions were from the director who chose the script and sometimes the words were directly from the actor himself. See?
LU,I am somewhat recovered from waking up and read through what you wrote before.
When it comes from God either way is of God. In the first case God speaks the words to you and has you repeat them while in the second case the words are the fruit of the Spirit, by which God dwells in you.
The doctrine of God does not come from a man though teach it. It does not come from mankind though in it is their salvation. It comes from God and God chose Jesus as both its pioneer and finisher.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2013,09:35) Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2013,15:57) 1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father……….. ……the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
The words seem clear enough to me, Kathi. Kerwin has a knack for understanding very simple words in a nonsensical way – in order to protect his doctrines. His responses to this post, and his implication that Jesus only ever spoke the words of his God, are both asinine, to say the least.I wonder if Kerwin thinks it was the Father's words Jesus was speaking in Matthew 26:39 and 42?
Mike,That is part of my spirit.
Jesus' words you are referring to are the fruit of the Spirit and for that reason are of God. I look at his doctrinal words differently. He speaks them as he is carried along by the spirit. Jesus' words are never the fruits of the flesh.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,09:41) Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2013,01:42) Kerwin, Quote I agree with these words but not the claim that the same person, who is intrinsically royal can also be intrinsically commoner at the same time. In the analogy, in the right kingdom, the person is inherently a man of royalty. In a completely different kingdom, the same person is not a person who is inherently a man of royalty in that country for he is a commoner since he does not have the royal blood in him that the royals in that country have. Read this about what Jesus says:
John 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”you said:
Quote God does not have a body, much less blood, as bodies are created.
Yes, God the Father and the only begotten God do not have a body, much less blood, as bodies are created. That is why the only begotten God had to be incarnated into a created body in order to have blood which He could shed for the remission of the sins of all and in order to walk with the limits of flesh so He could be like us but be tempted and still fulfill the law.you said:
Quote I am claiming Jesus is 100% man, God is 100% God, and that the two work together as one. If Jesus is only a man then who did Saul meet on the road to Damascus that called Saul to be an apostle that said He was Jesus of Nazareth?
Acts 22
6“As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. 7And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ 8And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ 9Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understandb the voice of the one who was speaking to me. 10And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ 11And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.12“And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
17“When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 18and saw him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.’ 19And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 20And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ 21And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”
Read the context Mike.I said “God the Father and the only begotten God do not have a body, much less blood, as bodies are created. That is why the only begotten God had to be incarnated into a created body in order to have blood which He could shed for the remission of the sins of all and in order to walk with the limits of flesh so He could be like us but be tempted and still fulfill the law. “
I was talking about a 'corporeal' body. The Son eventually takes on a corporeal body when conceived in Mary and after that corporeal body dies, it is restored to the Son as a heavenly body. The Son continues to be both God and man eternally because the Son of Man was given eternal life. The Son of God always was an eternal life.
LU,There is no words “corporeal body” in Scripture that I have read. Where did you find it.
Kerwin,
Do you have a corporeal body? Yes or no. Here is a definition of corporeal:cor·po·re·al
adjective \kȯr-ˈpȯr-ē-əl\
1
: having, consisting of, or relating to a physical material body: as
a : not spiritual
b : not immaterial or intangible : substantialI believe that the scriptures call it 'earthly body.'
For example:
Col 3:5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2013,23:34) Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,09:32) Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2013,21:47) Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2013,08:14) Kerwin,
What if the Spirit of God gives the Son freedom to speak and rule as He sees fit in certain situations, especially after His resurrection when He had been given all authority? Then the Son is the source of His own words and actions.See Kerwin, if person (A) was your authority that you were required to listen to and obey, and person (A) was telling you everything to say and do through a speaker in your ear, and person (A) was telling you word for word and step by step, that is one thing; but if person (A) said that it was their desire that you just do what you think best and give you freedom to speak and act as you see fit during a certain period…well all that you said and did would be under the person (A)'s directives but one way would be speaking person (A)'s words and the other way you would be speaking your own words and would be originating from YOU. Both ways would be according to person (A's) authority.
Do you understand this?
LU,I am not understanding it right now, but perhaps later.
Jesus loves God and does as he commands, nothing that Jesus does comes from the flesh. That which comes from the flesh is from man. That which comes from the Spirit is from God. These things I understand.
Ok Kerwin,
I will say it in another way.If an actor only did the will of the director then he would do as the director directed him to do. Sometimes an actor's actions and words are in the script and sometimes the director gives the actor direction to adlib, in other words…use his own words and not the words of the script. So whether the actor was following the script perfectly when he was supposed to or ad-libbing when he was supposed to, he was always doing the will of the director. Sometimes the words and actions were from the director who chose the script and sometimes the words were directly from the actor himself. See?
LU,I am somewhat recovered from waking up and read through what you wrote before.
When it comes from God either way is of God. In the first case God speaks the words to you and has you repeat them while in the second case the words are the fruit of the Spirit, by which God dwells in you.
The doctrine of God does not come from a man though teach it. It does not come from mankind though in it is their salvation. It comes from God and God chose Jesus as both its pioneer and finisher.
Kerwin,Quote while in the second case the words are the fruit of the Spirit
Sometimes we are given what to speak by the Spirit of God but 'words' are not listed as one of the 'fruits of the Spirit.'The fruits of the Spirit guides the manner in which we say OUR words though, whether we speak our words patiently, or lovingly, or joyfully, or peacefully, or kindly, etc..
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