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Quote (Resting @ April 17 2013,13:52) Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Resting.Verily I say unto thee;Today thou shalt be with me in paradise.
The thief could have been babtised with water sometime before he became a thief. But the fact here is that he is a thief,and theives dont get to heaven.
And yet he made it,because he was given mercy.
It is mercy that get us there;not water.
Water babtism is for repentance;but does not give us guarantee of acceptance,one can always back slide after babtised.The 10 virgins were all babtised with water,obviously.
And yet only 5 made it.wakeup.
ONE MAN IS BABTISED WITH WATER AND A CHURCH GOER.
AN OTHER MAN IS A BELIEVER,BUT DOES NOT GO TO CHURCH AND NEVER BABTISED WITH WATER.THE BABTISED MAN COULD NOT TAKE THE PRESSURE,
AND BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS FAMILY SO MUCH,HE HAD TO TAKE THE MARK,SO THEY COULD HAVE FOOD TO EAT.THE UNBABTISED MAN STOOD FAST,REFUSED THE MARK UNTO DEATH.
WHICH ONE OF THE TWO YOU THINK WOULD BE ACCEPTED INTO THE KINGDOM? THE BABTISED WITH WATER;OR THE UNBABTISED WITH WATER,BUT BABTISED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT?
wakeup.
Wakeup,
If I may…Quote THE UNBABTISED MAN STOOD FAST,REFUSED THE MARK UNTO DEATH. Augustine, 419 AD – “Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, DIE FOR THE CONFESSION OF CHRIST – it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, `If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, `Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’”
Quote THE BABTISED MAN COULD NOT TAKE THE PRESSURE,
AND BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS FAMILY SO MUCH,HE HAD TO TAKE THE MARK,SO THEY COULD HAVE FOOD TO EAT.Firstly, I do not believe that the mark is literal, but – going with your story – God knows the heart of man, and so God is the judge.
If that person took some literal mark out of love for his family – so they would not starve to death – then, that is love.
God knows the intentions of a man.
If the mark is spiritual, which I believe it is – then these verses would apply:
Hebrews 6:4-9.
'It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.'Hebrews 10:27-31.
'If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.'Makes more sense for a spiritual mark, don't you think?
Anyway, will let Resting answer your questions.
abe,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote Rom.8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which HAVE the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.Do we actually see eye to eye? ?
Abe,
There are no tribes today. This is the plan of God from the beginning. That he would make a nation for himself by bringing them out of Egypt (Israel). Out of them came the 12 tribes of Israel and they served the old covenant. God's name was spread because of what God did for them through Moses, and the prophets, but they would also later come to fall away from God and reject their Messiah, and not recognise the new covenant. Now salvation is open to all gentiles because they rejected. We now become the adopted children of Israel. We are brought into the family. Spiritual Israel. We are counted amongst the tribes. If you have been following the topic, I am explaining that the real Israel is not dead to God, but has strayed, will be punished, and then God will turn them back around to him at Christ's return.
The scriptures also say that the saints will reign with Christ for a thousand years on his return. (Rev 20:4) and the old testament reveals that they will be reigning over the Israelites who are brought back from the grave (the remnant). These Israelites will have to come to God through Christ now. That's the new rule. They, Israel are the natural branches, but were cut off, we gentiles are the grafted branches.
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
but those natural branches that were cut off will be “spared” and this is physical Israel. That same nation which was called out of Egypt. The original ones. That same nation that is always at war today ISRAEL. The same ones that rejected Christ, ISRAEL.
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
They, original Israel will be grafted back in during the millennium, and they will be taught by Christ and the saints. Their food will be pure truth. Not like we have now, so many false doctrines because of the serpent who sent a flood (distorted the truth) So it will be glorious for them.
And this is what this means.
Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first (GENTILES CALLED IN LAST, BUT WILL BE RESURRECTED FIRST) , and the first last: (ISRAEL WAS CALLED TO GOD FIRST, BUT WILL COME BACK TO GOD LAST, DURING THE MILLENNIUM, AND RESURRECTED IN 2ND RESURRECTION) for many be called, but few chosen.But Revelations speaks only of 144,000 first fruits. The firstfruits are always the best kept aside. (normally 10% of the crop) God has kept these aside for himself and has a purpose for these first fruits.
These will be raised first, then the rest of the christians straight after.
How do I know this?Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a lamb stood the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
So these are the first ones that meet with Christ on his return. They have followed the lamb wheresoever he goes, so it means that they have been feeding on the flesh of Christ all the way. These are redeemed from men. So they obeyed Christ's words, and they happen to be alive during the last days and not have their foundation crumble because it was built on a rock. It withstood the storm. These have the full measure of the holy spirit, and God is happy with them. And the rest of all the christians that followed Christ will be resurrected also, but not all of them are of the last generation. The 144,000 are of the last generation before Christ returns. The last end time christians that were not swept away in the flood, and the last days are the most evil of all time. So a big test that they past.
The 12 tribes of Israel are there to show us that it started with them, the natural branches, and the 144,000 will teach them during the millennium.
Quote (2besee @ April 17 2013,21:26) Wakeup,
If I may…Quote THE UNBABTISED MAN STOOD FAST,REFUSED THE MARK UNTO DEATH. Augustine, 419 AD – “Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, DIE FOR THE CONFESSION OF CHRIST – it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, `If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, `Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’”
Quote THE BABTISED MAN COULD NOT TAKE THE PRESSURE,
AND BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS FAMILY SO MUCH,HE HAD TO TAKE THE MARK,SO THEY COULD HAVE FOOD TO EAT.Firstly, I do not believe that the mark is literal, but – going with your story – God knows the heart of man, and so God is the judge.
If that person took some literal mark out of love for his family – so they would not starve to death – then, that is love.
God knows the intentions of a man.
If the mark is spiritual, which I believe it is – then these verses would apply:
Hebrews 6:4-9.
'It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.'Hebrews 10:27-31.
'If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.'Makes more sense for a spiritual mark, don't you think?
Anyway, will let Resting answer your questions.
2Besee.If the mark of the beast is not literal;
perhaps you could tell me what it is.wakeup.
2besee,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote Journey, So do you now agree that water baptism is a part of being born again? Because that is what I as talking about. Have you changed your view?
No I havn't changed my view 2Besse.
Born again is when we will be given our new spirit bodies at the resurrection. We were Born the first time out of water (out of our mothers womb), then will be born again (2nd time, out of Zion, the Woman) This is the resurrection. We are born twice only. Born again.Even Jesus had to come into the world the same way as us.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. (Jesus was born of water also, and blood. Flesh and blood.)
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace (Paul speaking) also born of water, came out of the womb, just like all of us)
1 Corinth 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (born again)
1 Corinth 15:54 ….death is swallowed up in victory (born again)
Baptism is different. Not born of water.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost..2besse,
It's not really that complicated. It's simple. The flood has distorted something so simple. We must be born flesh first (born of water) before we can be born again at the resurrection into spirit. Water baptism and born of water are two different things. Baptism is the sprinkling of water. Being born flesh is coming out of water…born of water. Coming out of the womb (water). When a woman's water breaks, her baby is coming out. When one is born of the spirit, he will have taken part in the resurrection, born of the woman, Zion. Spirit now. born again. One is born flesh, the other spirit. This is the promise. This is the process. Learn, obey, then receive the promise, a new body, incorruptible.
Quote (Resting @ April 17 2013,13:52) Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:Quote (journey42 @ April 17 2013,03:44) abe,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote Rom.8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which HAVE the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.Do we actually see eye to eye? ?
Abe,
There are no tribes today. This is the plan of God from the beginning. That he would make a nation for himself by bringing them out of Egypt (Israel). Out of them came the 12 tribes of Israel and they served the old covenant. God's name was spread because of what God did for them through Moses, and the prophets, but they would also later come to fall away from God and reject their Messiah, and not recognise the new covenant. Now salvation is open to all gentiles because they rejected. We now become the adopted children of Israel. We are brought into the family. Spiritual Israel. We are counted amongst the tribes. If you have been following the topic, I am explaining that the real Israel is not dead to God, but has strayed, will be punished, and then God will turn them back around to him at Christ's return.
The scriptures also say that the saints will reign with Christ for a thousand years on his return. (Rev 20:4) and the old testament reveals that they will be reigning over the Israelites who are brought back from the grave (the remnant). These Israelites will have to come to God through Christ now. That's the new rule. They, Israel are the natural branches, but were cut off, we gentiles are the grafted branches.
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
but those natural branches that were cut off will be “spared” and this is physical Israel. That same nation which was called out of Egypt. The original ones. That same nation that is always at war today ISRAEL. The same ones that rejected Christ, ISRAEL.
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
They, original Israel will be grafted back in during the millennium, and they will be taught by Christ and the saints. Their food will be pure truth. Not like we have now, so many false doctrines because of the serpent who sent a flood (distorted the truth) So it will be glorious for them.
And this is what this means.
Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first (GENTILES CALLED IN LAST, BUT WILL BE RESURRECTED FIRST) , and the first last: (ISRAEL WAS CALLED TO GOD FIRST, BUT WILL COME BACK TO GOD LAST, DURING THE MILLENNIUM, AND RESURRECTED IN 2ND RESURRECTION) for many be called, but few chosen.But Revelations speaks only of 144,000 first fruits. The firstfruits are always the best kept aside. (normally 10% of the crop) God has kept these aside for himself and has a purpose for these first fruits.
These will be raised first, then the rest of the christians straight after.
How do I know this?Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a lamb stood the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
So these are the first ones that meet with Christ on his return. They have followed the lamb wheresoever he goes, so it means that they have been feeding on the flesh of Christ all the way. These are redeemed from men. So they obeyed Christ's words, and they happen to be alive during the last days and not have their foundation crumble because it was built on a rock. It withstood the storm. These have the full measure of the holy spirit, and God is happy with them. And the rest of all the christians that followed Christ will be resurrected also, but not all of them are of the last generation. The 144,000 are of the last generation before Christ returns. The last end time christians that were not swept away in the flood, and the last days are the most evil of all time. So a big test that they past.
The 12 tribes of Israel are there to show us that it started with them, the natural branches, and the 144,000 will teach them during the millennium.
Hi J42,Jn.1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Jn.3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease.
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom:
Where do you see future?
Peace sister.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 17 2013,20:45) Quote (Resting @ April 17 2013,13:52) Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Resting.Verily I say unto thee;Today thou shalt be with me in paradise.
The thief could have been babtised with water sometime before he became a thief. But the fact here is that he is a thief,and theives dont get to heaven.
And yet he made it,because he was given mercy.
It is mercy that get us there;not water.
Water babtism is for repentance;but does not give us guarantee of acceptance,one can always back slide after babtised.The 10 virgins were all babtised with water,obviously.
And yet only 5 made it.wakeup.
Wakeup,You are using faulty reasoning to refuse the commandments of the Lord.
The Apostles were sent to preach as Peter and all others of Acts preached, and they were in every instance baptised in water according to the command.
The fact that you refuse to obey the doctrine of the Apostles makes it apparent, and by your answer above, that you are not born of the Spirit into the Kingdom of God today.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.Res.
Quote (journey42 @ April 18 2013,00:34) Quote (Resting @ April 17 2013,13:52) Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
One scripture does not countermand another scripture.They are both true, but you use one against the other.
Thousands upon thousands of believers of the OT will be saved at the judgment, but they were never required to obey the doctrine of the Apostles to enter the Kingdom of God.
Res.
Quote (Resting @ April 18 2013,08:21) Quote (Wakeup @ April 17 2013,20:45) Quote (Resting @ April 17 2013,13:52) Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Resting.Verily I say unto thee;Today thou shalt be with me in paradise.
The thief could have been babtised with water sometime before he became a thief. But the fact here is that he is a thief,and theives dont get to heaven.
And yet he made it,because he was given mercy.
It is mercy that get us there;not water.
Water babtism is for repentance;but does not give us guarantee of acceptance,one can always back slide after babtised.The 10 virgins were all babtised with water,obviously.
And yet only 5 made it.wakeup.
Wakeup,You are using faulty reasoning to refuse the commandments of the Lord.
The Apostles were sent to preach as Peter and all others of Acts preached, and they were in every instance baptised in water according to the command.
The fact that you refuse to obey the doctrine of the Apostles makes it apparent, and by your answer above, that you are not born of the Spirit into the Kingdom of God today.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.Res.
Resting.Why is it faulty reasoning?
In fact it happened at the cross with the thief.
An unbabtised thief,and yet received mercy.Lets say that he was babtised before,for the remission of sins.
But became unbabtised by sinning again,for he bacame a sinner. He became a thief.There are many unbabtised today,but have changed their lives;and repented by living a God fearing life.
Water babtism is not the key to everlasting life,but mercy is
the key.Water babtism is good, as long as one keeps away from touching the unclean thing.
One can unbabtise himself by sinning again and again.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 18 2013,01:32) Quote (2besee @ April 17 2013,21:26) Wakeup,
If I may…Quote THE UNBABTISED MAN STOOD FAST,REFUSED THE MARK UNTO DEATH. Augustine, 419 AD – “Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, DIE FOR THE CONFESSION OF CHRIST – it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, `If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, `Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’”
Quote THE BABTISED MAN COULD NOT TAKE THE PRESSURE,
AND BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS FAMILY SO MUCH,HE HAD TO TAKE THE MARK,SO THEY COULD HAVE FOOD TO EAT.Firstly, I do not believe that the mark is literal, but – going with your story – God knows the heart of man, and so God is the judge.
If that person took some literal mark out of love for his family – so they would not starve to death – then, that is love.
God knows the intentions of a man.
If the mark is spiritual, which I believe it is – then these verses would apply:
Hebrews 6:4-9.
'It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.'Hebrews 10:27-31.
'If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.'Makes more sense for a spiritual mark, don't you think?
Anyway, will let Resting answer your questions.
2Besee.If the mark of the beast is not literal;
perhaps you could tell me what it is.wakeup.
Wakeup:
Forehead = Mind
With or without actions Right Hand)The law was written on our hearts and Jesus said that not a dot of the law will pass away but instead the law became harder because it is now a matter of ones thoughts (mind) as well as actions (right hand).
Rev 12
17The dragon became angry with the woman and went away to do battle against the rest of her children, the ones who keep God's commandments and hold on to the testimony about Jesus. 18Then the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
The dragon is the Devil.
This is recapitulated (retold in a different way) in Rev 14… The beast is the dragon (The Devil)Rev 14
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying in a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or his hand 10will drink the wine of God’s wrath, which has been poured undiluted into the cup of his anger. He will be tortured with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb. 11The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (They are alive on earth in torture)
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to their faithfulness in Jesus:
13I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this:
How blessed are the dead,
that is, those who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit.
“Let them rest from their labors,
for their actions follow them.”Commandments – faith – and actions.
This is the way that I am seeing it.Quote (journey42 @ April 18 2013,02:29) Quote (2besee @ April 17 2013,20:06) Quote Journey, So do you now agree that water baptism is a part of being born again? Because that is what I as talking about. Have you changed your view?
No I havn't changed my view 2Besse.
Born again is when we will be given our new spirit bodies at the resurrection. We were Born the first time out of water (out of our mothers womb), then will be born again (2nd time, out of Zion, the Woman) This is the resurrection. We are born twice only. Born again.Even Jesus had to come into the world the same way as us.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. (Jesus was born of water also, and blood. Flesh and blood.)
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace (Paul speaking) also born of water, came out of the womb, just like all of us)
1 Corinth 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (born again)
1 Corinth 15:54 ….death is swallowed up in victory (born again)
Baptism is different. Not born of water.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost..Journey,
Jesus was water baptized even though He was perfect and then the Holy Spirit descended on Him. Are you saying that you and anyone who you try to teach are more perfect than even Jesus, and that you do not NEED to follow His commands and example – or the Disciples commands?
Quote It's not really that complicated. It's simple. The flood has distorted something so simple. We must be born flesh first (born of water) before we can be born again at the resurrection into spirit. Water baptism and born of water are two different things. Baptism is the sprinkling of water. Being born flesh is coming out of water…born of water. Coming out of the womb (water). When a woman's water breaks, her baby is coming out. When one is born of the spirit, he will have taken part in the resurrection, born of the woman, Zion. Spirit now. born again. One is born flesh, the other spirit. This is the promise. This is the process. Learn, obey, then receive the promise, a new body, incorruptible. That is not true.
You have been shown Scripture, and also what the earliest church believed. That IS simple.
If I sound a little harsh then I am sorry, but that is how I feel about that topic.
Quote (2besee @ April 17 2013,22:06)
These are Hebrews from the twelve tribes of Israel – not Gentiles.'And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel,
twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Judah,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Reuben,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Gad,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Naph'tali,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Manas'seh,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Levi,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Is'sachar,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Zeb'ulun,
twelve thousand of the tribe of Joseph,
twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Benjamin.'
Here are the gentiles:
'After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!”
And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen.”
Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?”
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his
presence.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;
the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”The Lamb will be their shepherd, and He will guide them to springs of living water. They will hunger no more, nor thirst anymore, and as Revelation is a spiritual book, then I understand this to mean, once they are found and saved by God.
So, have we established now that..
- -144000 are from the tribes of Israel – listed tribe by tribe.
-There is a large crowd separate too numerous to count and these are Gentiles.Hi 2Besee,
Water baptism symbolizes openly an understanding of
the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The Jews did this as an open acknowledgement
that Jesus Christ was indeed their Messiah.The Gentiles first believe in their heart and then openly
profess the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ said: if we believe in him we don't have to die.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 18 2013,12:05) Hi 2Besee, Water baptism symbolizes openly an understanding of
the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Ed,Yes – and a washing away of our old sins. We are born again spiritually – and then is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, often many years later.
Quote The Jews did this as an open acknowledgement
that Jesus Christ was indeed their Messiah.The Gentiles first believe in their heart and then openly
profess the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ said: if we believe in him we don't have to die.You are ignoring alot of scriptures and commands of Jesus and the Disciples to the Gentiles, Ed.
(Mark 16:16) 'He that believes and is baptized shall be saved'
(Acts 2:38) 'Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'[/font]
(Acts.19:1-6) 'While Apol'los was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.”
And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.'“And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:38-41)(Acts 10:44-48) 'While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
“Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.'Jesus said to Peter: “I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
'”I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'
(Romans 6:4) 'We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.'
Jesus said Matt 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
“Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?”
Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like; he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.”(1st Peter,18-22) “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.”Quote (Resting @ April 18 2013,08:26) Quote (journey42 @ April 18 2013,00:34) Quote (Resting @ April 17 2013,13:52) Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
One scripture does not countermand another scripture.They are both true, but you use one against the other.
Thousands upon thousands of believers of the OT will be saved at the judgment, but they were never required to obey the doctrine of the Apostles to enter the Kingdom of God.
Res.
Baptism I am not denying, but born of water does not mean water baptism. It is not the same thing. That is what the argument is.You butted in giving scriptures about baptism. I know those scriptures, so I showed you that baptism of the holy spirit is the one that we want. It is not even water baptism.
Quote (2besee @ April 18 2013,10:12) Quote (Ed J @ April 18 2013,12:05) Hi 2Besee, Water baptism symbolizes openly an understanding of
the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Ed,Yes – and a washing away of our old sins. We are born again spiritually – and then is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, often many years later.
Quote The Jews did this as an open acknowledgement
that Jesus Christ was indeed their Messiah.The Gentiles first believe in their heart and then openly
profess the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ said: if we believe in him we don't have to die.You are ignoring alot of scriptures and commands of Jesus and the Disciples to the Gentiles, Ed.
Hi 2Besee,We are not born-again until we are baptized
with the “HolySpirit” and “FIRE”(ref. Heb.12:29).God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (2besee @ April 18 2013,09:35) Quote (Wakeup @ April 18 2013,01:32) Quote (2besee @ April 17 2013,21:26) Wakeup,
If I may…Quote THE UNBABTISED MAN STOOD FAST,REFUSED THE MARK UNTO DEATH. Augustine, 419 AD – “Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, DIE FOR THE CONFESSION OF CHRIST – it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, `If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, `Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’”
Quote THE BABTISED MAN COULD NOT TAKE THE PRESSURE,
AND BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS FAMILY SO MUCH,HE HAD TO TAKE THE MARK,SO THEY COULD HAVE FOOD TO EAT.Firstly, I do not believe that the mark is literal, but – going with your story – God knows the heart of man, and so God is the judge.
If that person took some literal mark out of love for his family – so they would not starve to death – then, that is love.
God knows the intentions of a man.
If the mark is spiritual, which I believe it is – then these verses would apply:
Hebrews 6:4-9.
'It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.'Hebrews 10:27-31.
'If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.'Makes more sense for a spiritual mark, don't you think?
Anyway, will let Resting answer your questions.
2Besee.If the mark of the beast is not literal;
perhaps you could tell me what it is.wakeup.
Wakeup:
Forehead = Mind
With or without actions Right Hand)The law was written on our hearts and Jesus said that not a dot of the law will pass away but instead the law became harder because it is now a matter of ones thoughts (mind) as well as actions (right hand).
Rev 12
17The dragon became angry with the woman and went away to do battle against the rest of her children, the ones who keep God's commandments and hold on to the testimony about Jesus. 18Then the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
The dragon is the Devil.
This is recapitulated (retold in a different way) in Rev 14… The beast is the dragon (The Devil)Rev 14
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying in a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or his hand 10will drink the wine of God’s wrath, which has been poured undiluted into the cup of his anger. He will be tortured with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb. 11The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (They are alive on earth in torture)
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to their faithfulness in Jesus:
13I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this:
How blessed are the dead,
that is, those who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit.
“Let them rest from their labors,
for their actions follow them.”Commandments – faith – and actions.
This is the way that I am seeing it.
Thank you Besee.Thats the sda teachings.
1.How would you buy, or sell with that mark?
2.How would an atheist buy or sell,for he does not believe in anything spiritual?
3. How would that mark add up to 666? for it is a number of one man.wakeup.
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