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Gene,
Where?(My thoughts…)
From going about converting others from their pagan religions.
Because the pagans already believed in multiple gods it was easier to convert others by allowing them to continue believing that anyone who came from, or was associated with, heaven, was a god.
Possibly, these were 2nd generation apostles who strayed from the truth when they came up against resistant pagans who asked: Who is the Holy Spirit?, is Jesus a god?, is the Father a god?
If the Father is a god then the Son is a god (which certainly looks to be true if you view with human eyes: man begets man, god begets god… Except, Satan's devices are always flawed…a True God is not 'begotted'!!)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2010,09:36) And a little tidbit for WJ: He has challenged us to find in the Bible another who was “worshipped” besides Jesus or Jehovah. Check out 2 Samuel 1: Quote
1 After the death of Saul, David returned from defeating the Amalekites and stayed in Ziklag two days. 2 On the third day a man arrived from Saul's camp, with his clothes torn and with dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor.Sounds like what happened to Jesus, but let's double check the definitions to make sure.
MikeI was speaking about the use of the word by Jesus and the Apostles.
They did not make any difference in the use of the word “proskyneō” for both the Father and Jesus.
Wherever there was an attempt for someone to worship an Angel for instance in Revelation, the Angel said “do not worship “proskyneō” me!
Jesus used the same word “proskyneō” in John 4:24 for the True worship of the Father that the Apostles used when they worshipped “proskyneō” him, yet in all the instances, not once did Jesus discourage it or correct them like the Angel did in Revelations!
If you do a Greek word study on the word “honour” where Jesus said men were to honour him “Even as” the Father you will see that it can also mean worship!
The burden of proof is on the unbelievers to show that we are not to worship Jesus even as the Father when the Father even commands the Angels to worship him!
BTW, the NWT is a loner translation that is mostly all alone on the translation of the word “proskyneō', all other major and credible Translations render it “Worship”!
The NWT translators were not “Hebrew and Greek” scholars at all, therefore their translation is questionable!
In a court of Law one of the leaders could not read a single verse in Hebrew!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 01 2010,13:23) Irene,
How do you know that immortality isn't one of the things that the Son gave up, ya know, one of the qualities that He emptied Himself of.Kathi
Good point.Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 07 2010,04:09) Gene, Where?(My thoughts…)
From going about converting others from their pagan religions.
Because the pagans already believed in multiple gods it was easier to convert others by allowing them to continue believing that anyone who came from, or was associated with, heaven, was a god.
Possibly, these were 2nd generation apostles who strayed from the truth when they came up against resistant pagans who asked: Who is the Holy Spirit?, is Jesus a god?, is the Father a god?
If the Father is a god then the Son is a god (which certainly looks to be true if you view with human eyes: man begets man, god begets god… Except, Satan's devices are always flawed…a True God is not 'begotted'!!)
Another good point.Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 06 2010,12:09) Gene, Where?(My thoughts…)
From going about converting others from their pagan religions.
Because the pagans already believed in multiple gods it was easier to convert others by allowing them to continue believing that anyone who came from, or was associated with, heaven, was a god.
Possibly, these were 2nd generation apostles who strayed from the truth when they came up against resistant pagans who asked: Who is the Holy Spirit?, is Jesus a god?, is the Father a god?
If the Father is a god then the Son is a god (which certainly looks to be true if you view with human eyes: man begets man, god begets god… Except, Satan's devices are always flawed…a True God is not 'begotted'!!)
JustAskin says:Quote a True God is not 'begotted'!! A true God is not begotten…that would be true but a true God could beget one like Himself and then we would have a begotten God.
What would you get from true light…false light?? No, you would continue to get true light. You wouldn't get the original light but nevertheless, you would get true light.
It's not complicated.
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 06 2010,07:18) Hi all, The first thing to do here is to define 'Worship'.
Kathi may well be right that she does what she does to both God and Christ, to both the Father and the Son BUT she uses the word 'Worship', not understanding what it is, re-defining the word in indifference to the scripture that says 'lean not on thine own understanding'.
Kathi, your declaration that noone has disputed your claim to worship 'God and Christ' is more likely if noone was debating the Scriptures with you. This is why I have told you before that your knowledge and acts to God and Christ are sound as far as your current understanding goes.
What you have done here in this forum is to raise your level of understanding. This means that you need refinement of your knowledge but you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the 'word of truth' that your personal definition of 'worship' is faulty, that nowhere in Scriptures is it stated that Jesus Christ is to be Worshipped by mankind.
Please don't quote verses claiming that Jesus 'was' worshipped. The Scriptures clearly state, as Mike has pointed out, that only God Almighty is to be worshipped.It has also been pointed out that the Disciples, Jews, Pharasees, Scribes, and so on, knew only the One God and Worshipped only the One God.
When Jesus was 'aledged' to have been 'worshipped', why did they not protest and claim that Jesus was being blasphemous by accepting it? Perhaps, the lack of any comment by anyone is a sure clue to the fact that Noone thought that the act performed was in any way classed as Worship!!Kathi, perhaps you would like to state (again):
1) What you think 'Worship' is;
2) Why you think it applies to Jesus Christ; and
3) Where you get your Scriptural backing.
We can worship Jesus if He is a person within the Godhead. The Godhead is our God, imo. Not the trinitarian Godhead but a Godhead of unity between the Father and the Son. One God and one Lord within one Godhead. Of course, the Holy Spirit of the Father is within the Godhead since the spirit of the Father is as much a part of the Father as the Father's own mind.My opinion,
KathiQuote (t8 @ Mar. 07 2010,10:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 01 2010,13:23) Irene,
How do you know that immortality isn't one of the things that the Son gave up, ya know, one of the qualities that He emptied Himself of.Kathi
Good point.
Hi T8,I can easily tell from the posts that my intellect is not on par with you, Stu, Bod and many others on this site. But I have to ask; can immortality be given away so that one can die? If there are any circumstances ever that would result in one's death, then you weren't immortal in the first place. IMO
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Mar. 06 2010,07:41) Kathi,
I forgot to mention…
There is another word that describes the acts performed to Jesus, and others. That word is 'Obeisance' and is akin to the physical acts of worship but can be applied to anyone, particularly one of great importance: a King, a Judge, a 'Mighty One', a Heroic one, a Saviour, and so on.Why did the Scripture translaters chose the term 'Worship' and not 'Obeisance' when they came across the Greek word at that point? perhaps even they did not believe that someone would mis-interpret the meaning (the 'spirit' not the 'letter'!)
Well, I think the translators chose “worship” because the blind man and the disciples who worshiped Jesus saw Him do the supernatural and knew that He was from God. Jesus received worship after Jesus healed the blind man so that he could see, he walked on water in a storm and helped Peter to do so also, and the disciples saw Jesus who was dead, now alive and well. They saw God sized acts, not something man could do.Here is another one of those verses with the word “worshiped” in it that you will see translated differently in different versions.
Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. NIV
If the word should be translated “obeisance” then why would the angel refuse it when John bowed down? After all, obeisance is given to mighty ones and an angel is a mighty one. Do you actually think that John worshiped the angel but gave obeisance to Jesus? I don't think so.
Kathi
Hi LU,
Elisha and Paul and Peter raised the dead though they were ordinary men.
Like Jesus they were empowered by their God.
God was in them.HiLU,
That was not the point you were making was it?
The special choice of God among God's servants does not make Jesus another god to be worshiped does it?
Surely you have shown that the reason you choose to worship him is because of your understanding of his origins, not his anointing by God.Nick,
The Lord of glory is not just a lord like you seem to think. If God made Jesus not only the messiah but the Lord also, then He should be worshiped. The fact that Jesus is Lord has kept many Jews from believing in Him because they can't accept it either, like you can't seem to. They expected the messiah to just be a man, not Lord.Acts 2:36
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ — this Jesus whom you crucified.”
NASUHi WJ,
You said:
Quote They did not make any difference in the use of the word “proskyneō” for both the Father and Jesus. Agreed. But is there a difference in the WORD “worship” when we use it for different meanings?
You said:
Quote Jesus used the same word “proskyneō” in John 4:24 for the True worship of the Father that the Apostles used when they worshipped “proskyneō” him, yet in all the instances, not once did Jesus discourage it or correct them like the Angel did in Revelations! That's because, despite using the same word, a different type of worship is implied. How could it not be? The Pharisees watched the blind man worship Jesus. If he had worshipped Jesus the way one is only to worship Jehovah, both the blind man and Jesus would have been stoned to death on the spot.
You said:
Quote If you do a Greek word study on the word “honour” where Jesus said men were to honour him “Even as” the Father you will see that it can also mean worship! I'll say it again: Animals have brains even as humans do. “Even as” is not the same as “exactly as”. Jesus was saying they should show him honor (comma) just as you would show his Father and God honor because he was after all, sent by the Father and was the Son of God. It's all layed out in the parable of the vineyard tenants that starts in Matthew 21:33.
Verse 37 says:
Quote 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said. You said:
Quote The burden of proof is on the unbelievers to show that we are not to worship Jesus even as the Father when the Father even commands the Angels to worship him! Keith, that's just silly to me. The Bible doesn't specifically say not to worship Satan, so that's like me saying, “I'm going to do that until you show that I'm not suppose to.” But even if the Bible doesn't explicitly say not to do something, God has given us enough information to make the right decision. For example, how did Jesus handle Satan?
Quote Matthew 4:10 NIV
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'Do you see who Jesus says to worship only? And not just here, but all through his ministry he points everyone to God, not himself and not the Holy Spirit.
You said:
Quote BTW, the NWT is a loner translation that is mostly all alone on the translation of the word “proskyneō', all other major and credible Translations render it “Worship”! So they take “the road less traveled”? I've read it, and it is a good translation (although I don't approve of them inserting the divine name into the NT). But the reason they translate it as obeisance is to capture the spirit of the text. They (and I think even you deep down) know that the blind man didn't worship Jesus as God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2010,16:12) They saw God sized acts, not something man could do.
Hi Kathi,I can echo Nick and add to the list of men who did God-sized acts with the help of God: Moses and Elijah.
You said:
Quote They expected the messiah to just be a man, not Lord. Where did you get that info? My understanding is that they were expecting something more than a mere man.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2010,01:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2010,16:12) They saw God sized acts, not something man could do.
Hi Kathi,I can echo Nick and add to the list of men who did God-sized acts with the help of God: Moses and Elijah.
You said:
Quote They expected the messiah to just be a man, not Lord. Where did you get that info? My understanding is that they were expecting something more than a mere man.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
I'm going to sleep but if I can find that info, I'll tell you. I have been reading a lot on the net about Jews and Messianic Jews. I don't know if I can easily find what I was reading.G'nite,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2010,01:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2010,01:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2010,16:12) They saw God sized acts, not something man could do.
Hi Kathi,I can echo Nick and add to the list of men who did God-sized acts with the help of God: Moses and Elijah.
You said:
Quote They expected the messiah to just be a man, not Lord. Where did you get that info? My understanding is that they were expecting something more than a mere man.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
I'm going to sleep but if I can find that info, I'll tell you. I have been reading a lot on the net about Jews and Messianic Jews. I don't know if I can easily find what I was reading.G'nite,
Kathi
Mike,
Well, I didn't make it to sleep yet. I had to see if I could easily answer your question and here is a website that will show you that the Jews expected a man.Quote The Mashiach The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as “mashiach ben David” (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.
From:
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htmNow, goodnight for sure!
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2010,16:58) Nick,
The Lord of glory is not just a lord like you seem to think. If God made Jesus not only the messiah but the Lord also, then He should be worshiped. The fact that Jesus is Lord has kept many Jews from believing in Him because they can't accept it either, like you can't seem to. They expected the messiah to just be a man, not Lord.Acts 2:36
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ — this Jesus whom you crucified.”
NASU
Hi LU,
Do we decide what is right?
Then whom do we serve?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2010,17:01) Hi WJ, You said:
Quote They did not make any difference in the use of the word “proskyneō” for both the Father and Jesus. Agreed. But is there a difference in the WORD “worship” when we use it for different meanings?
You said:
Quote Jesus used the same word “proskyneō” in John 4:24 for the True worship of the Father that the Apostles used when they worshipped “proskyneō” him, yet in all the instances, not once did Jesus discourage it or correct them like the Angel did in Revelations! That's because, despite using the same word, a different type of worship is implied. How could it not be? The Pharisees watched the blind man worship Jesus. If he had worshipped Jesus the way one is only to worship Jehovah, both the blind man and Jesus would have been stoned to death on the spot.
You said:
Quote If you do a Greek word study on the word “honour” where Jesus said men were to honour him “Even as” the Father you will see that it can also mean worship! I'll say it again: Animals have brains even as humans do. “Even as” is not the same as “exactly as”. Jesus was saying they should show him honor (comma) just as you would show his Father and God honor because he was after all, sent by the Father and was the Son of God. It's all layed out in the parable of the vineyard tenants that starts in Matthew 21:33.
Verse 37 says:
Quote 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said. You said:
Quote The burden of proof is on the unbelievers to show that we are not to worship Jesus even as the Father when the Father even commands the Angels to worship him! Keith, that's just silly to me. The Bible doesn't specifically say not to worship Satan, so that's like me saying, “I'm going to do that until you show that I'm not suppose to.” But even if the Bible doesn't explicitly say not to do something, God has given us enough information to make the right decision. For example, how did Jesus handle Satan?
Quote Matthew 4:10 NIV
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'Do you see who Jesus says to worship only? And not just here, but all through his ministry he points everyone to God, not himself and not the Holy Spirit.
You said:
Quote BTW, the NWT is a loner translation that is mostly all alone on the translation of the word “proskyneō', all other major and credible Translations render it “Worship”! So they take “the road less traveled”? I've read it, and it is a good translation (although I don't approve of them inserting the divine name into the NT). But the reason they translate it as obeisance is to capture the spirit of the text. They (and I think even you deep down) know that the blind man didn't worship Jesus as God.
peace and love,
mike
Mikeboll65………..Right on brother> The Jew would have stoned Bothe the blind man ans Jesus to death if they were worshiping anyone as a GOD.PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND YOURS…………………..GENE
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2010,18:00) Mike,
Well, I didn't make it to sleep yet. I had to see if I could easily answer your question and here is a website that will show you that the Jews expected a man.Quote
The MashiachThe mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as “mashiach ben David” (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.
From:
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htmNow, goodnight for sure!
Kathi
Hi Kathi,Hope you finally got some sleep!
I know it was midnight in AZ and you were still on in TN.I don't know anything about the writings you quoted but I would like to make two points.
1. The writings you quoted don't seem to take into account that God foretold through Isaiah that the Messiah would be called “Mighty God”.
2. If you are to believe these writings, then you have to admit that this part, But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being, shoots down your idea that people worshipped Jesus as something other than a man when he was on earth.
peace and love,
mike
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