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Hi KW,
No we do not read between the lines and then teach from such inferences.Scripture is our teacher.
Being born of water and the spirit does not happen twice.
The infant received spirit long before birth and the so called waters of childbirth are not spoken of elsewhere in scripture in this way.There is no OLD SPIRIT or OLD WATER in scripture.
Your claims of understanding seem to be without any spiritual wisdom.Nick
some people do not understand wen God says he does not change he the same now and forever
the gospel is not new ,is access is new,the teachings of it was there and never changed,
but was unlocked by Christ.
some try to explain the obvious,why just not only read it.??
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote No we do not read between the lines and then teach from such inferences.
I agree that you disobey God and do not seek understanding. That is one of your sins. The question is are you boasting of it or confessing it so God will cleanse you of unrighteousness.
Psalms 32:9(NIV) reads:
Quote Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you.
And
Psalms 119:73(NIV) reads:
Quote Your hands made me and formed me;
give me understanding to learn your commands.Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Being born of water and the spirit does not happen twice.
You state that and Jesus teaches:
John 3:3(NIV) reads:
Quote Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit
According to Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary there are four possible definitions for the word “again”. They are:
Quote 1 : in return : BACK {swore he would pay him again when he was able — Shakespeare}
2 : another time : once more : ANEW {I shall not look upon his like again — Shakespeare}
3 : on the other hand {he might go, and again he might not}
4 : in addition : BESIDES {again, there is another matter to consider}Of the four possibilities “another time” seems to be the one that fits the content of what Jesus is teaching and it is also the way Nicodemus understood it. We know this as he made the comment about “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!”
We also separate testimony from scripture which speaks of a renewal and for that matter rebirth, regeneration.
Titus 3:5(NIV) reads:
Quote he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
I choose therefore to take Jesus’ word over yours.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The infant received spirit long before birth and …
Though I believe you are correct that the infant receives the spirit before birth your interpretation of the word “born” is too legalistic for what Jesus intends by his teachings. It appears he is including more than just the moment of birth in the word “born” just like he is including more than the moment of the second birth in the words born again.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote … and the so called waters of childbirth are not spoken of elsewhere in scripture in this way.
Even if the so called waters of childbirth are not spoken of in scripture they are known to exist and scripture does not exist in a vacuum. Jesus was well aware that his listener would know that a woman’s water, amniotic fluid, breaks as she gives birth. The water exists before birth and the child is submerged in it just as one is submerged in water at baptism. In addition just like a child is conceived prior to birth so too is faith in Jesus conceived prior to one’s rebirth.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Scripture is our teacher.
If you believe that then you do not believe Jesus as he taught:
John 5:37-40(NIV) reads:
Quote And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Scriptures are merely a teaching tool and God is the teacher. Without God your study of scripture is useless.
Hi KW,
Again you judge from a very weak foundation.So you quote this verse as if it had AGAIN in it.
“Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit”
It is NOT THERE.
Wake up.If you want support about the waters of childbirth being valid find it written somewhere else IN SCRIPTURE[2Cor13.1]
psst
Amniotic fluid is anything but pure water![Heb10.22]Hi KW,
You say“Scriptures are merely a teaching tool and God is the teacher'
Show more respect for the bread of life-you cannot live without it.
If you want God to teach you you must know that scripture is truth.[Jn17.17]
Put down your own ideas and speculations and really listen to the living word.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So you quote this verse as if it had AGAIN in it.
You are correct that the word “again” is not in that verse but rather it is in the verse 2 verses earlier. It is the second birth Jesus speaks of in verse 5. But you have already admitted that when one is born of their mother they are born of spirit and water as you stated:
Previously, Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The infant received spirit long before birth And even you know that water exists within the mother’s womb.
So despite what you say legalism is not the answer and I know you realize man has an “old” spirit despite saying otherwise.
So the question is why does God see a need to replace that old spirit he gave you long before birth with a new spirit?
So stop playing games and answer according to God’s point of view if you can.
You also failed to comment of what Paul wrote to Titus in chapter 3.
The word “Renewal” used in the King James Version is translated from the Greek word “anakainōsis” which according to the Greek lexicon at searchgodsword.org means “a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better” is only used one other time in the bible and that is Romans 12:2.
And
The word “Regeneration” used in the King James Version is translated from the Greek word “paliggenesia” which according to the Greek lexicon at searchgodsword.org means “new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration” is only used one other time in the bible and that is Matthew 19:28.
Since you discredited one of my witnesses I will point to:
Colossians 3:7-12(KJV) reads:
Quote
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;By the way do you still believe man=flesh now that scripture places the “new” man in opposition to the “old” man?
I agree that “old man” and “flesh” are word combinations Paul chose to use for the spirit an infant receives long before birth. On the other hand “new man” is a combination he chooses to use for the spirit of righteousness received by those that enter the new covenant.
Hi KW,
There is no AGAIN in the verse and so your theory about a previous rebirth of water and the Spirit falls flat.
The rest of your argument has no foundation.The flesh is the old man, the tent that will be folded up and put aside, and houses 'sin in the flesh'.
The new man is not of the flesh of adam but of the clothing of Lord Christ Jesus, the man from heaven.
The Spirit of God, if given, is housed within the cleansed soul and abides there to raise us up in a new body.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2010,00:25) Hi KW,
There is no AGAIN in the verse and so your theory about a previous rebirth of water and the Spirit falls flat.
The rest of your argument has no foundation.The flesh is the old man, the tent that will be folded up and put aside, and houses 'sin in the flesh'.
The new man is not of the flesh of adam but of the clothing of Lord Christ Jesus, the man from heaven.
The Spirit of God, if given, is housed within the cleansed soul and abides there to raise us up in a new body.
Nick Hassan,I already admitted that I made a mistake about John 3:5 by attributing a word of few versus previous to it.
Never the less I also pointed out that you, yourself admit that one is born in spirit and I assume water if taking the who birth process from conception to exiting ones mother's womb.
My assumpition about water is based on amniotic fluid being called water and it is mostly water two weeks after fertilization. I am not sure what your belief in the matter is though.
So even if what I state is not backed up by John 3:5 it is true none the less unless you think Jesus was speaking of the period of time from conception to exiting from one's mother's womb. I doubt that is the case as he did state again in John 3:3.
Thus for whatever reason we are in agreement that by the time a humaan being exits their mother's womb they have a spirit. It is that spirit I call the old spirit and that I state is impure.
Since this spirit is the only one man can live by before entering the new covenant it explains why scripture states:
Psalms 14:2-3(KJV) reads:
Quote The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
It also explains why God stated his promised solution with these words:
Ezekiel 36:24-29(KJV) reads:
Quote For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
and we know he has done as he stated since Colossians 3:7-12 teaches us that such is the case by using the words old man and new man for the words old spirit and new spirit respectively.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2010,17:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2010,00:25) Hi KW,
There is no AGAIN in the verse and so your theory about a previous rebirth of water and the Spirit falls flat.
The rest of your argument has no foundation.The flesh is the old man, the tent that will be folded up and put aside, and houses 'sin in the flesh'.
The new man is not of the flesh of adam but of the clothing of Lord Christ Jesus, the man from heaven.
The Spirit of God, if given, is housed within the cleansed soul and abides there to raise us up in a new body.
Nick Hassan,I already admitted that I made a mistake about John 3:5 by attributing a word of few versus previous to it.
Never the less I also pointed out that you, yourself admit that one is born in spirit and I assume water if taking the who birth process from conception to exiting ones mother's womb.
My assumpition about water is based on amniotic fluid being called water and it is mostly water two weeks after fertilization. I am not sure what your belief in the matter is though.
So even if what I state is not backed up by John 3:5 it is true none the less unless you think Jesus was speaking of the period of time from conception to exiting from one's mother's womb. I doubt that is the case as he did state again in John 3:3.
Thus for whatever reason we are in agreement that by the time a humaan being exits their mother's womb they have a spirit. It is that spirit I call the old spirit and that I state is impure.
Since this spirit is the only one man can live by before entering the new covenant it explains why scripture states:
Psalms 14:2-3(KJV) reads:
Quote The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
It also explains why God stated his promised solution with these words:
Ezekiel 36:24-29(KJV) reads:
Quote For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
and we know he has done as he stated since Colossians 3:7-12 teaches us that such is the case by using the words old man and new man for the words old spirit and new spirit respectively.
KW2Co 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
Terraricca,
That is true of Paul and the others whom wrote scriptures but it does not mean it is true about you.
Consider instead what Peter states:
2 Peter 3:14-18(NKJV) reads:
Quote Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
It is a warning that we all do best to heed.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 24 2010,17:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2010,00:25) Hi KW,
There is no AGAIN in the verse and so your theory about a previous rebirth of water and the Spirit falls flat.
The rest of your argument has no foundation.The flesh is the old man, the tent that will be folded up and put aside, and houses 'sin in the flesh'.
The new man is not of the flesh of adam but of the clothing of Lord Christ Jesus, the man from heaven.
The Spirit of God, if given, is housed within the cleansed soul and abides there to raise us up in a new body.
Nick Hassan,I already admitted that I made a mistake about John 3:5 by attributing a word of few versus previous to it.
Never the less I also pointed out that you, yourself admit that one is born in spirit and I assume water if taking the who birth process from conception to exiting ones mother's womb.
My assumpition about water is based on amniotic fluid being called water and it is mostly water two weeks after fertilization. I am not sure what your belief in the matter is though.
So even if what I state is not backed up by John 3:5 it is true none the less unless you think Jesus was speaking of the period of time from conception to exiting from one's mother's womb. I doubt that is the case as he did state again in John 3:3.
Thus for whatever reason we are in agreement that by the time a humaan being exits their mother's womb they have a spirit. It is that spirit I call the old spirit and that I state is impure.
Since this spirit is the only one man can live by before entering the new covenant it explains why scripture states:
Psalms 14:2-3(KJV) reads:
Quote The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
It also explains why God stated his promised solution with these words:
Ezekiel 36:24-29(KJV) reads:
Quote For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
and we know he has done as he stated since Colossians 3:7-12 teaches us that such is the case by using the words old man and new man for the words old spirit and new spirit respectively.
Hi KW,
Yes you do make dogmatic statements apart from scriptural backing.
Should you?Yes you do make dogmatic statements apart from scriptural backing.
Should you?You sound just like a pharisee or a lawyer. The truth is the truth no matter where it is found or do you not believe scripture.
Proverbs 1:20(NASB) reads:
Quote Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;I do not understand your point in ignoring wisdom's call as it is clear that human's are born of water and spirit when they undergo their fleshly, i.e. physical as opposed to spiritual birth.
Did I confuse you by using two different meanings for spiritual in the same sentence?
Hi KW,
Please put aside your traditional preconceptions and show matters from the Word.
So where is this impure human spirit in scripture?
Where is OLD SPIRITQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,01:06) Hi KW,
Please put aside your traditional preconceptions and show matters from the Word.
So where is this impure human spirit in scripture?
Where is OLD SPIRIT
It is not my preconceived notion that “Wisdom shouts in the street” but it is your preconceived notion that there is not truth outside of scripture. Your belief on the matter contradicts scripture.Now about the new and old spirit, Paul makes a logical argument about the new and old covenant the principle of which I believe also applies to the spirit.
Hebrews 8:13(NKJV) reads:
Quote In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
This relationship is made clear in another of Paul's letters.
2 Corinthians 5:17(NKJV) reads:
Quote Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
We know the new creation has a new spirit. Did the old creation have an old spirit?
Hi KW,
You are not the one to offer new extrabiblical truth are you?
The Spirit does not speak of His own initiative.There are lots of new and old things but does God refer to an old spirit or only you?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,08:08) Hi KW,
You are not the one to offer new extrabiblical truth are you?
The Spirit does not speak of His own initiative.There are lots of new and old things but does God refer to an old spirit or only you?
I am only offering what I have been told about the physical birth. I happen to trust the source. Are you on record denying that one is born of spirit and water, i.e amniotic fluid? If not then what is the hold up.Please note that by birth I am meaning the whole time between conception and exit from one's mother's womb.
I really consider the question “There are lots of new and old things but does God refer to an old spirit or only you?” foolish. The reason is that you seem completely oblivious to English Language usage. When God speaks of giving someone a new spirit you have two options as to what he means about what came before. 1) They have no spirit previously or 2) The spirit they have previously becomes the old spirit. You have admitted that the first is not the case so that means by logical necessity that the 2nd one must be true. God expects you to use the brain he gave you to figure out what he meant. So why are you not doing so?
Hi KW,
Such a natural birth is of your imagination and bears no relationship to Scripture.
you still prefer to defend your additions ?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2010,13:43) Hi KW,
Such a natural birth is of your imagination and bears no relationship to Scripture.
you still prefer to defend your additions ?
I other words you once again prove yourself to be a liar.Stop sinning and obey God.
You already told me that one recieves a spirit before they exit their mother's womb. Are you deniing there is amniotic fluid in a mother's womb?
You flip and flop which is why I say you prove yourself to be a liar.
Either one thing or the other you say is true but not both.
So what do you actually believe?
Childbirth is in scripture. Do you think the woman of scripture gave conceived and carried to term their children in a different way than women today?
Hi KW,
Calling folks liars normally draws a tile but towards me?
Perhaps t8 may object but I guess your anger at disagreement is the cause.Calm yourself and go back to what is written.
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