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- thethinker,Mar. wrote:
Jesus' words were old covenant. Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3).
thethinker, wrote:So Christ is the mediator of the new covenantand God qualified the Apostles to administer it.
the wrote:The letter of the law has passed away for the letter “kills.” Moses represents the letter of the law andChrist represents the spirit of the law
Quite a move from, “Jesus' words were old covenant”
to, “Christ represents the spirit of the law.”I commend you.
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ Mar. 11 2009,02:49) thethinker,Mar. wrote:Jesus' words were old covenant. Paul was the administrator of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3).
thethinker, wrote:So Christ is the mediator of the new covenantand God qualified the Apostles to administer it.
the wrote:The letter of the law has passed away for the letter “kills.” Moses represents the letter of the law andChrist represents the spirit of the law
Quite a move from, “Jesus' words were old covenant”
to, “Christ represents the spirit of the law.”I commend you.
Seeking
Seeking,
You are beginning to tick me off big time. Christ's words in the sermon on the Mount were spoken BEFORE He had accomplished His Mediatorial work. He said,Quote A jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled He meant that the letter of the law would remain in effect until it was ALL fulfilled. Moses would remain in effect until all was fulfilled. Jesus spoke those words BEFORE He had become the Mediator of the covenant. Therefore, His words were old covenant. The new covenant is about His having fulfilled the law in our behalf. Is it necessary for me to explain to you how He fulfilled the law? You know very well that He has fulfilled the law-TOTALLY.
The letter therefore has passed away. You twist my words as you do the Scriptures. You don't want to understand these things. And I am beginning to think that you don't have an ounce of Gospel truth in you. Go ahead and serve the letter of the law friend. It will get you nothing but damned “for the letter kills.”
Christ paid it all! I have told you so my hands are clean.
thinker
Seeking,
I feel badly about my recent manner in this discourse. It is coming from frstration for having to repeat myself so much on the letter versus the spirit of the law issue. I feel that long before now we should have been been talking about the how of serving the spirit of the law. But you keep taking us back to the letter of it.The letter of the law was fulfilled by Christ. We have been delivered from the letter so that we could be free to serve the law according to the spirit. But how do we do this? This is what we should be talking about at this stage.
The letter has passed away once and for all!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 10 2009,14:55) Quote Seeking,
You are beginning to tick me off big time.Gal 5:16-21 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22-25 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.2Ti 1:7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.
Quote ]Christ paid it all! Hear Him –
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Learn of Him –
Eph 4:20-32 But that is not the way you learned Christ!–
assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.Walk in His power –
2Ti 3:2-5 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
Quote You are beginning to tick me off big time No one does anything to you! You do it to yourself consistent with the spirit you are following at the moment.
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 11 2009,01:53) Quote I feel that long before now we should have been been talking about the how of serving the spirit of the law. But you keep taking us back to the letter of it. Without implying total perfection, I see great potential in the born again believer. Point in time regarding various matters may be an area in which we are somewhat apart.
I see Jesus in direct conflict with a Pharsiacal application of the law. The Sermon on The Mount is full of “but I say.”
He challenged their understanding and was mediating new understanding from day one, as I see it. Continually, He attributed peoples healing, forgiveness, etc. to their faith.
He even reached out to a women who was satisfied to receive the crumbs of grace.Grace extends great victory for the believer. It is under grace that we walk in good works, (Eph. 2:10). By the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh, (Rom.8:13) By faith we have victory and overcome the world, (1jn.5:4).
Victory includes obedience which also can only come from
faith, (Rom.16:26) Victory also includes a people who are not saved by the law, nevertheless, they can fulfill the righteous requirements of the law:Rom 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Perhaps it is my holding to this victory walk of faith potential we have that caused you to feell the need to return to the
“letter of the law/spirit of the law” discussion.Quote But how do we do this? This is what we should be talking about at this stage. I agree totally! Recall, I have asked on several occassions that you hang some meat on the “Faith Alone” walk. My experience with these forums ( not you or me alone) is that living for Jesus, encouragement, bearing fruit, walking in righteousness do not get much of an airing. It seems debate is the turn on. Delight is found in differences.
So, I am for the “how to discussions.”
Seeking
Hi tt,
Paul was?
You should be accurate.
2Cor3
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.I thought your new covenant only began at AD70?
You are confusedNick Hassan wrote on February 29, 2009:
Quote The OLD MAN is the BODY OF SIN.
That is a rather vague statement with at least two possible meanings.
1) You speak of the sins committed, I.e. the guilt of those sins.
2) You speak of the sinful nature.If you know God then you would know that he forgets the sins of those who change their ways and do right.
Ezekiel 18:27-28(NAS) reads:
Quote Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
That is what God states and you are contradicting him then you are sadly mistaken.
I therefore assume you did not mean the first or have since changed your mind.
Let’s look at sinful nature or in other words flesh. The closest scripture in the King James version that explicitly states something like “sinful nature” is Ephesians 2:3 that mentions “were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” I believe the reason for this is that Jews of which Paul was one tended to coach their language in mysticisms or proverbs. John 16:29.
Nature in Ephesians 2:3 comes from the Greek Word “Physis” and most likely either means “birth, physical origin” or “a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature”.
Flesh in Galatians 5:17 comes from the Greek Word “Sarx” and most likely means “used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship “ specifically “born of natural generation”
Man in Romans 6:6 comes from the Greek Word “Anthropos” and most likely means “a human being, whether male or female” or more particularly “generically, to include all human individuals “
So it sounds like those scripture speak of something we inherit from our ancestors but it is also something that is changed at baptism unlike our genetics or our flesh.
So what is changed at baptism?
I used the Greek Lexicon at searchgodsword.org.
Hi KW,
We are cleansed inwardly and forgiven by God in response to our repentant plea of water baptism.[1peter3]
Those who have washed from thence only have to wash their feet.[jn13]
Washed as white as snow but walking in a dirty world.
God's creation of man was very good.
No corrupted spirits.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2009,06:06) Hi TT,
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The OLD MAN is the BODY OF SIN.
Hi KW,
In context our BODY is the old man.
Derived from the original man, Adam.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2010,01:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2009,06:06) Hi TT,
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The OLD MAN is the BODY OF SIN.
Hi KW,
In context our BODY is the old man.
Derived from the original man, Adam.
Did Jesus teach that?What does Jesus teach must be changed before you enter the kingdom of heaven?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2010,01:39) Hi KW,
We are cleansed inwardly and forgiven by God in response to our repentant plea of water baptism.[1peter3]
Those who have washed from thence only have to wash their feet.[jn13]
Washed as white as snow but walking in a dirty world.
God's creation of man was very good.
No corrupted spirits.
I am not sure you properly understand what “spirit” means in the context I speak of.What does spirit of righteousness mean to you?
Hi KW,
The Holy Spirit of God has many appelations.
But the spirit of man, the lamp of God, is never said to be evil or corrupted.Hi KW,
We are all of the flesh of Adam.
There is no older man.That flesh is buried with Jesus in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ that we may be raised with him.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The Holy Spirit of God has many appellations.
Even if the Holy Spirit has many names or titles how then does that tell me what it is
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote But the spirit of man, the lamp of God, is never said to be evil or corrupted.
I do not believe lamp of God is a correct title for the spirit of man. The closest to that is Job 27:17 and Psalms 18:28 which are speaking of life and not of the “essential nature of a person…” In Revelations 4, the seven spirits are called the lamps but once again I believe that is the wrong kind of spirit. Jesus is called the lamp of God in Revelations 21 but Jesus is not the spirit I call corrupt. Revelations mentions God as the lamp but even though he is spirit, he is not even of the type I call corrupt.
What is the driving force behind an impure person?
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote That flesh is buried with Jesus in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ that we may be raised with him.
Do you believe “heart” literally means “The chambered muscular organ in vertebrates that pumps blood received from the veins into the arteries, thereby maintaining the flow of blood through the entire circulatory system.”?
I obtained my definition from thefreedictionary.com
Hi KW,
So the ESSENTIAL NATURE OF A PERSON concept, is that in scripture?
Is that what James means = that a body without an ESSENTIAL NATURE is dead?
Seems odd to me. Perhaps the bible's definitions would be of more help than the world's dictionaries?Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Is that what James means = that a body without an ESSENTIAL NATURE is dead?
I do not believe that is as I am not even sure if even a dead person can exist without an essential nature. In scripture the “essential nature” is treated as a dichotomy with no allowance for having none. An example of this is Galatians 5:17 with Spirit in conflict with the flesh.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So the ESSENTIAL NATURE OF A PERSON concept, is that in scripture?
“Essential” is not used in scripture but the word “nature” defined as I use it is used in a few places.
In Romans 2:14 we are told of Gentiles who do by nature the things contained in the law. These Gentiles would be walking according to the essential nature, i.e. spirit, of righteousness.
In Ephesians 2:3 we are taught that we were once by nature children of wrath.
2 Peter 1:4 speaks of partaking of the divine nature.
It is irrelevant though as words are merely a way to convey ideas and the question is whether the ideas conveyed by the phrase including the words “essential nature” are found in scripture even if those exact words are not.
Is the essential nature of a person walking according to the ways of the flesh corrupt?
Is the essential nature of a person walking according to the ways of the spirit pure?
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Seems odd to me. Perhaps the bible's definitions would be of more help than the world's dictionaries?
How can you understand a bible written in English if you do not understand the correct definition of the English words used inside and other words and phrases that express the same ideas?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2010,07:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2010,01:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2009,06:06) Hi TT,
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The OLD MAN is the BODY OF SIN.
Hi KW,
In context our BODY is the old man.
Derived from the original man, Adam.
Did Jesus teach that?What does Jesus teach must be changed before you enter the kingdom of heaven?
Hi KW,
We are looking at the context of Paul's teaching about THE OLD MAN.
Looking at the verse in Rom6 in which he spoke of it do you agree it is the flesh?Jesus said to seek first the kingdom.[Mt6]
Jesus said we need to be reborn from above, of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom.[Jn3]
Jesus said the flesh profits nothing.[jn6]What are you offering from his words about corrupted spirits?
Nick Hassan,
According to the Greek lexicon at searchforgodsword.org one definition of flesh is “used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship “ which sounds like the definition of “spirit” which is “The essential nature of a person or group”. Nature is used in other places as I wrote elsewhere.
You even admit the need for a new spirit and the existence of an old spirit when you quote Jesus teaching about being born again in spirit and water. When Jesus teaches that you know that a disciple is born at least two times in spirit and water. The first time is called the old spirit and old water and the second time is the new spirit and the new water. The first time when one is born of water and spirit is when the student exits his mother’s womb. This links to the definitions I gave for flesh, man, and nature.
Do you think it is just coincidences that all these words tie together?
What do you think born of spirit and water means?
I simply do not believe you read scripture with understanding.
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