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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2009,09:47) Hi BD,
They crucified the Son of God. the Lord of glory.
Which of the writers of the Gospel actually witnessed his crucifixion?Matthew 26:55-57 (King James Version)
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled
Mark 14:49-51 (King James Version)
50And they all forsook him, and fled.
Acts 5
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Was he crucified on a cross or hanged from a tree?
Acts 10:38-40 (King James Version)
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Acts 13:28-30 (King James Version)
28And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30But God raised him from the dead:
Tell me was it a tree he was hanged from or is tree greek for cross or what?
God did raise him from the dead
Matthew 8:21-23 (King James Version)
21And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Wasn't Jesus lifted up to heaven Alive?
Jesus was alive when he spoke to Mary at the tomb he even said do not touch me for I have not ascended yet.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Mark 14:35-37 (King James Version) 35And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
He did ask and God did deliver him
Jesus did NOT ask the Father to deliver Him,
Quote But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?” (Matthew 26:52-54) Jesus said this IMMEDIATELY AFTER the incident you mentioned in Mark 14. He explicitly told Peter that if He prayed the Father would give Him the legions of angels. Then He explained why He did not ask. He said the Scriptures could not be fulfilled. When reading this in the context of the sequence of events and also with the commentary provided for us in Hebrews we see that the essence of His prayer in Mark 14 was for the strength to ENDURE the sufferings that were to soon befall Him,
Quote …who in the days of His flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and WAS HEARD because of His godly fear…. (Heb. 5:7-8a) God heard His prayer in Mark 14. If God heard Jesus' prayer then He could not have asked to be delivered from the ordeal but rather the strength to endure it. This was the ESSENCE of His prayer. Hebrews says His prayer WAS HEARD.
If Jesus asked to be delivered as you say then in what way did God hear His prayer? Do you read the Bible in an orderly fashion? Or do you prefer the “choppy” method?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 12 2009,02:10) Marty said: Quote Hi WJ: Jesus stated that those who have seen him had seen the Father because the works that he was doing were in obedience to God.
Marty,
You reveal that you do not have ears to hear Just as WJ said. Titus 2:13-14 is one of the most clear statements concerning the Divinity of Jesus in all of Scripture. It says that the God and Savior Jesus Christ gave Himself FOR US….Come to terms with it bro!
thinker
Hi thethinker:Did Jesus not say that it was the Father doing the works through him?
If God was dwelling in him, then it follows that he is not God in the sense that you are trying to say. He is the express image of God's person, and so he is God in this sense.
The Greek interlinear http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/tit2.pdf
translates Titus 2:13 as follows: “LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US, THAT HE MIGHT REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY, AND PURIFY UNTO HIMSELF A PECULIAR PEOPLE, ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS”.
The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God, and so, God is coming in the person of Jesus Christ.
Thinker, you try to justify your belief in the “Trinity” on the basis of a scripture like this one when there are many scriptures that tell you exactly that Jesus is not God. Like this one:
Quote 1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Is there anything too hard to understand in the foregoing scripture?
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote Hi thethinker: Did Jesus not say that it was the Father doing the works through him?
If God was dwelling in him, then it follows that he is not God in the sense that you are trying to say. He is the express image of God's person, and so he is God in this sense.
Jesus was limited while He lived in the flesh.
Marty said:
Quote The Greek interlinear http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/tit2.pdf translates Titus 2:13 as follows: “LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US, THAT HE MIGHT REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY, AND PURIFY UNTO HIMSELF A PECULIAR PEOPLE, ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS”.
Note that the text says that Jesus Christ is our “Great God and Savior.” Thank you for providing the Interlinear for it establishes trinitarianism. See the opening post to this thread.
Marty said:
Quote The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God, and so, God is coming in the person of Jesus Christ. What's the difference?
Marty said:
Quote Thinker, you try to justify your belief in the “Trinity” on the basis of a scripture like this one when there are many scriptures that tell you exactly that Jesus is not God. Like this one: 1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
How is it that 1 Timothy 2:5 “denies” that Jesus is God. Ezekiel says that there is ONE shepherd. Yet Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd.” Paul said that there is ONE Lord. Yet he requires that we that Jesus is the Lord. If the word “one” means what you say then Jesus is not the good shepherd and neither is He Lord.
You guys take the word “one” in reference to God as a cardinal number when it is used as an ordinal number. The Father and the Son constitute one shepherd, one Lord and one God. It's that simple!
thinker
Hi thethinker:
Marty said:Quote
Hi thethinker:Did Jesus not say that it was the Father doing the works through him?
If God was dwelling in him, then it follows that he is not God in the sense that you are trying to say. He is the express image of God's person, and so he is God in this sense.
thinker said:
Jesus was limited while He lived in the flesh.
Marty responded:
He is still limited without the Father.
John 15 states:
Quote Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.Quote
The Greek interlinear http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/tit2.pdftranslates Titus 2:13 as follows: “LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US, THAT HE MIGHT REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY, AND PURIFY UNTO HIMSELF A PECULIAR PEOPLE, ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS”.
thinker said:
Note that the text says that Jesus Christ is our “Great God and Savior.” Thank you for providing the Interlinear for it establishes trinitarianism. See the opening post to this thread.
Marty responded:
No, thinker this is what it says: “LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST” “Of 'THE' Great God and our saviour Jesus Christ”.
Marty said:Quote
The body of Christ is the Holy Temple of God, and so, God is coming in the person of Jesus Christ.Thinker asked:
What's the difference?
Marty responded:
The difference is that Jesus is a man and God is a Spirit. The Spirit dwells within the body or the temple.Marty said:Quote
Thinker, you try to justify your belief in the “Trinity” on the basis of a scripture like this one when there are many scriptures that tell you exactly that Jesus is not God. Like this one:1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Thinker said:
How is it that 1 Timothy 2:5 “denies” that Jesus is God. Ezekiel says that there is ONE shepherd. Yet Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd.” Paul said that there is ONE Lord. Yet he requires that we that Jesus is the Lord. If the word “one” means what you say then Jesus is not the good shepherd and neither is He Lord.
You guys take the word “one” in reference to God as a cardinal number when it is used as an ordinal number. The Father and the Son constitute one shepherd, one Lord and one God. It's that simple!
Marty responded;
Timothy 2:5 denies that Jesus is God in the sense that you trinitarians are trying to say in that the scripture states that he is a man and a mediator between God and man.
Also, relative to “one shepherd”. Jesus is head of the church.
Quote Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Quote 1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ June 17 2009,11:26) bodhitharta wrote: Quote Mark 14:35-37 (King James Version) 35And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
He did ask and God did deliver him
Jesus did NOT ask the Father to deliver Him,
Quote But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?” (Matthew 26:52-54) Jesus said this IMMEDIATELY AFTER the incident you mentioned in Mark 14. He explicitly told Peter that if He prayed the Father would give Him the legions of angels. Then He explained why He did not ask. He said the Scriptures could not be fulfilled. When reading this in the context of the sequence of events and also with the commentary provided for us in Hebrews we see that the essence of His prayer in Mark 14 was for the strength to ENDURE the sufferings that were to soon befall Him,
Quote …who in the days of His flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and WAS HEARD because of His godly fear…. (Heb. 5:7-8a) God heard His prayer in Mark 14. If God heard Jesus' prayer then He could not have asked to be delivered from the ordeal but rather the strength to endure it. This was the ESSENCE of His prayer. Hebrews says His prayer WAS HEARD.
If Jesus asked to be delivered as you say then in what way did God hear His prayer? Do you read the Bible in an orderly fashion? Or do you prefer the “choppy” method?
thinker
Jesus did not ask for strength he asked that the cup be taken from himHebrews 5 (King James Version)
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
The scripture says he was heard
Marty said:
Quote No, thinker this is what it says: “LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST” “Of 'THE' Great God and our saviour Jesus Christ”. Marty,
Again I ask you to go to the opening post on this thread and read the grammatical rule that applies to Titus 2:13. Pretty please!Marty said:
Quote Timothy 2:5 denies that Jesus is God in the sense that you trinitarians are trying to say in that the scripture states that he is a man and a mediator between God and man. Then in what sense is Christ “God” in your thinking?
Marty said:
Quote Also, relative to “one shepherd”. Jesus is head of the church. I agree. But you are NOT being inconsistent. If the expression “One God” disallows for a plural unity in the Godhead inwhich Christ is a part, then the expression “One Shepherd” disallows for Christ to be the Shepherd. For Psalm 23:1 says that YHWH is the Shepherd.
thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote Jesus did not ask for strength he asked that the cup be taken from him Hebrews 5 (King James Version)
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
The scripture says he was heard
bd,
Yes Jesus' prayer was heard. This means that God granted Him what He asked. Seeing that the cup did not pass from Him then the essence of His prayer was the strength to endure. Please explain His statement to Peter that if He had asked the Father to deliver Him the Father would have sent legions of angels. Please explain why He said that the Scriptures must be fulfilled if He wanted to kop out. And if Christ's subjection to the Father was not voluntary as you suggest, then explain why the Scriptures repeatedly say that He gave Himself for us because HE LOVED US. Can genuine love be forced?The “cup” is not clearly identified in the narrative. Jesus had just said, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful.” How do we know the intense sorrow He suffered was not the “cup” He asked the Father to take away?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 18 2009,04:30) bodhitharta said: Quote Jesus did not ask for strength he asked that the cup be taken from him Hebrews 5 (King James Version)
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
The scripture says he was heard
bd,
Yes Jesus' prayer was heard. This means that God granted Him what He asked. Seeing that the cup did not pass from Him then the essence of His prayer was the strength to endure. Please explain His statement to Peter that if He had asked the Father to deliver Him the Father would have sent legions of angels. Please explain why He said that the Scriptures must be fulfilled if He wanted to kop out. And if Christ's subjection to the Father was not voluntary as you suggest, then explain why the Scriptures repeatedly say that He gave Himself for us because HE LOVED US. Can genuine love be forced?The “cup” is not clearly identified in the narrative. Jesus had just said, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful.” How do we know the intense sorrow He suffered was not the “cup” He asked the Father to take away?
thinker
Hebrew 7 says he offered up strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from deathit doesn't say to the one that could give him strength
The scripture say he was heard now Jesus used this expression with Lazarus whom he also wept for and Jesus said at that time too
John 11:40-42 (King James Version)
40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
The Fact is Jesus was saved by God from death.
Hi BD,
Your FACTS do not tally with Scripture.Mt 27 and the descriptions in the parallel words of the other recorders say he died-he gave up his spirit.
Again Peter said the Jews killed him and Paul said he DIED several times.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2009,07:48) Hi BD,
Your FACTS do not tally with Scripture.Mt 27 and the descriptions in the parallel words of the other recorders say he died-he gave up his spirit.
Again Peter said the Jews killed him and Paul said he DIED several times.
(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)Nick tell me please was Jesus hanged from a tree or nailed to a cross and is a tree a cross?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2009,10:35) Hi BD,
So again your stranger's words conflict with the sacred ones?
Which will you choose?
Please Nick answer the question? Which is right?Acts 5:29 (King James Version)
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree
Acts 10:39 (King James Version)
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree
or
Luke 23 (King James Version)
26And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
or
John 19:17-18 (King James Version)
17And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
18Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
Quote (thethinker @ June 18 2009,04:22) Marty said: Quote No, thinker this is what it says: “LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST” “Of 'THE' Great God and our saviour Jesus Christ”. Marty,
Again I ask you to go to the opening post on this thread and read the grammatical rule that applies to Titus 2:13. Pretty please!Marty said:
Quote Timothy 2:5 denies that Jesus is God in the sense that you trinitarians are trying to say in that the scripture states that he is a man and a mediator between God and man. Then in what sense is Christ “God” in your thinking?
Marty said:
Quote Also, relative to “one shepherd”. Jesus is head of the church. I agree. But you are NOT being inconsistent. If the expression “One God” disallows for a plural unity in the Godhead inwhich Christ is a part, then the expression “One Shepherd” disallows for Christ to be the Shepherd. For Psalm 23:1 says that YHWH is the Shepherd.
thinker
Hi thethinker:Why are trying to justify your belief by a grammatical rule when there are many clear scriptures that show that there is only “One God”, and that Jesus is a man.
Jesus is God in my thinking in that he is the express image of God's person. God made man in His own image. The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam, Jesus, was made a life giving spirit.
Jesus stated that whoever has seen him has seen the Father, and that is because he was obeying God. God is a spirit of love.
As for the “one shepherd”, Jesus is submitted to God. He is not doing his own thing, and so, they are united in the purpose of the salvation of mankind. The commandments in the NT have come from God through Jesus to humanity, and now, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father watching over the Word to perform it.
Maybe these scriptures will help:
Quote Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote Why are trying to justify your belief by a grammatical rule when there are many clear scriptures that show that there is only “One God”, and that Jesus is a man. Marty,
You cannot handle the grammatical rule so your solution is to just discard it? The Scriptures do not teach that there is one God in the sense you say. It teaches that there is only one Elohim (God). The word Elohim is PLURAL my brother,Quote And Elohim said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness .
Marty said:
Quote Jesus is God in my thinking in that he is the express image of God's person. According to the Father this implies that Jesus is the creator. The Father spoke to the Son saying,
Quote Your throne O God is forever and ever….You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. It is clear that “God” in your thinking is NOT what the Father thinks when He applied the term to His Son.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 18 2009,23:08) Marty said: Quote Why are trying to justify your belief by a grammatical rule when there are many clear scriptures that show that there is only “One God”, and that Jesus is a man. Marty,
You cannot handle the grammatical rule so your solution is to just discard it? The Scriptures do not teach that there is one God in the sense you say. It teaches that there is only one Elohim (God). The word Elohim is PLURAL my brother,Quote And Elohim said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness .
Marty said:
Quote Jesus is God in my thinking in that he is the express image of God's person. According to the Father this implies that Jesus is the creator. The Father spoke to the Son saying,
Quote Your throne O God is forever and ever….You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. It is clear that “God” in your thinking is NOT what the Father thinks when He applied the term to His Son.
thinker
Sura #3623 “Shall I take (other) gods besides Him? If ((Allah)) Most Gracious should intend some adversity for me, of no use whatever will be their intercession for me, nor can they deliver me.
On the “newbie” thread TC27 said to Nick:
Quote Nick, Yes, that verse says that God reconciled the world to himslef in Christ. Yes, I will agree that God was in Christ. However Scripture blatantly says in Titus 2:13 “while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God AND Savior, Jesus Christ.” This verse clearly recognized Christ as being God. Just because God was in Christ, does not mean that Christ isn't God.
TC27
TC27,
Amen! Titus 2:13 is one of the most clear statements in the new testament that affirms that Jesus Christ is God. It is undeniable. The Greek construction confirms it. Please see the opening post on this thread.BTW, Welcome to the board.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 29 2009,19:31) On the “newbie” thread TC27 said to Nick: Quote Nick, Yes, that verse says that God reconciled the world to himslef in Christ. Yes, I will agree that God was in Christ. However Scripture blatantly says in Titus 2:13 “while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God AND Savior, Jesus Christ.” This verse clearly recognized Christ as being God. Just because God was in Christ, does not mean that Christ isn't God.
TC27
TC27,
Amen! Titus 2:13 is one of the most clear statements in the new testament that affirms that Jesus Christ is God. It is undeniable. The Greek construction confirms it. Please see the opening post on this thread.BTW, Welcome to the board.
thinker
In each book you must read the entire book to know the usage of the author:Titus 3 (King James Version)
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Isn't this scripture saying that the kindness and love of God is Jesus sent to man?
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Isn't this verse calling Jesus “a grace of God”
First Paul says:
Romans 15:7-9 (King James Version)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Then Paul says:
Galatians 6:14-16 (King James Version)
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Then Paul says:
Romans 3:1-3 (King James Version)
Romans 3
1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Titus 1 (King James Version)
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
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