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Hi WJ,
Sop you do not align with Paul who told us the Father is our God and Jesus is our Lord in 1 Cor8.
Have you found better men to align with?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,18:12) Hi WJ,
Sop you do not align with Paul who told us the Father is our God and Jesus is our Lord in 1 Cor8.
Have you found better men to align with?
Hi NHSo you lie.
For I said the Father is God and Jesus is Lord, but as the scriptures proclaim, the Father is Lord and Jesus is God.
Is my confession unscriptural? Please tell me how.
WJ
Hi WJ,
You call me a liar?
You owe my Lord.Paul did not lie when he said there was FOR US one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
But you may wish to exclude yourself from the US?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,18:27) Hi WJ,
You call me a liar?
You owe my Lord.Paul did not lie when he said there was FOR US one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
But you may wish to exclude yourself from the US?
Hi NHWhen you say…
“Hi WJ,
Sop you do not align with Paul who told us the Father is our God and Jesus is our Lord in 1 Cor8.
Have you found better men to align with?”Then that is missrepresentation, which is “bearing false witness.
For you know I have never said the Father is not our God and Jesus is not our Lord. Therefore I do align myself with 1 Cor 8:6 though you falsly accuse assume I dont.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,11:28) Quote (meerkat @ June 09 2009,16:25) Thinker and WJ I have noticed that the wording in the KJV is different from what was quoted in the starter post
before Saviour Jesus Christ is the word “our”
are there any other examples of the rule that have this – does this additional word separate the 2 persons of “the great God” and our “Saviour Jesus Christ” ??
Hi MeerkatThe Grandville Sharp rule is based on the litteral text.
“megalou qeou kai swthrov hmwn Ihsou Xristou”,
“Great God and Saviour our Jesus Christ”.
Blessings WJ
To me it makes no sense for Paul in the lead up to this to be referring to God and Jesus as separate persons using the terms God “Theos” for God and Jesus “Iēsous” “Christos” for Jesus and then in Titus 2:13 to refer to Jesus as “the Great God”. and then to switch back in Titus 3 to God “theos” bringing salvation to men through “Jesus Christ”The context is in Titus 2:10 God is referred to as our saviour and in Titus 1 Jesus is referred to as our Saviour when we get to 2:13 we are looking for the blessed hope and glory of the appearance/brightness of “the Great God” and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
If we look at the literal text for Titus 1:4 how does that compare?? we have God the Father and Jesus Christ our Saviour
If we also look at Titus 3:4-6 Titus 3:4-6 (King James Version)
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
2 separate persons “God our Saviour” and “Jesus Christ our Saviour”
It seems to me that what is being said in Titus 2 is that the appearance of God is through Jesus Christ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,12:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,18:27) Hi WJ,
You call me a liar?
You owe my Lord.Paul did not lie when he said there was FOR US one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
But you may wish to exclude yourself from the US?
Hi NHWhen you say…
“Hi WJ,
Sop you do not align with Paul who told us the Father is our God and Jesus is our Lord in 1 Cor8.
Have you found better men to align with?”Then that is missrepresentation, which is “bearing false witness.
For you know I have never said the Father is not our God and Jesus is not our Lord. Therefore I do align myself with 1 Cor 8:6 though you falsly accuse assume I dont.
WJ
Hi WJ,
So Jesus is YOUR God too despite the teaching of Paul?
So you do not really agree with Paul?
How many gods do you have?Hi WJ,
If the Father is your God and the one whom he was in [Jesus] reconciling the world to himself [2cor5]is also your god that makes two.
I know you are opposed to polytheism but you seem to be entangled within it.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,17:32) Hi WJ,
Of course he is not the one true God.
For us there is one God the Father ….and one Lord Jesus Christ[1cor8]
Hi HNWell then you deny the scriptures that says he is God, unless you believe he is a false god!
As you say there is only “One True God” now you have to decide if Jesus is “True” or not. Or is he just some little god that the Father called “God”.
Believe all the scriptures NH! Or believe some and reject the others, the choice is yours!
WJ
WJ,Nick didn't just make up that there was Only One True God.
Jesus Christ said it, Was Jesus wrong when he said that the Father was THE ONLY TRUE GOD?Either Jesus is wrong or you are, which is it?
Quote (meerkat @ June 10 2009,12:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,11:28) Quote (meerkat @ June 09 2009,16:25) Thinker and WJ I have noticed that the wording in the KJV is different from what was quoted in the starter post
before Saviour Jesus Christ is the word “our”
are there any other examples of the rule that have this – does this additional word separate the 2 persons of “the great God” and our “Saviour Jesus Christ” ??
Hi MeerkatThe Grandville Sharp rule is based on the litteral text.
“megalou qeou kai swthrov hmwn Ihsou Xristou”,
“Great God and Saviour our Jesus Christ”.
Blessings WJ
To me it makes no sense for Paul in the lead up to this to be referring to God and Jesus as separate persons using the terms God “Theos” for God and Jesus “Iēsous” “Christos” for Jesus and then in Titus 2:13 to refer to Jesus as “the Great God”. and then to switch back in Titus 3 to God “theos” bringing salvation to men through “Jesus Christ”The context is in Titus 2:10 God is referred to as our saviour and in Titus 1 Jesus is referred to as our Saviour when we get to 2:13 we are looking for the blessed hope and glory of the appearance/brightness of “the Great God” and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
If we look at the literal text for Titus 1:4 how does that compare?? we have God the Father and Jesus Christ our Saviour
If we also look at Titus 3:4-6 Titus 3:4-6 (King James Version)
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
2 separate persons “God our Saviour” and “Jesus Christ our Saviour”
It seems to me that what is being said in Titus 2 is that the appearance of God is through Jesus Christ
Thanks, Meerkat for this post. I believe that you are correct. There are other scriptures that would also justify this conclusion.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (bodhitharta @ June 09 2009,21:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,17:32) Hi WJ,
Of course he is not the one true God.
For us there is one God the Father ….and one Lord Jesus Christ[1cor8]
Hi HNAs you say there is only “One True God” now you have to decide if Jesus is “True” or not. Or is he just some little god that the Father called “God”.
Believe all the scriptures NH! Or believe some and reject the others, the choice is yours!
WJ
WJ,Nick didn't just make up that there was Only One True God.
Jesus Christ said it, Was Jesus wrong when he said that the Father was THE ONLY TRUE GOD?Either Jesus is wrong or you are, which is it?
Hi BDJesus also made claims to be God, though you and others deny his claims. He claimed to be equal to the Father and that is why the Jews crucified him.
So then like Nick you can alos white out the scriptures that claim his deity if you want, and not accept the scriptures calling Jesus God? Or do you believe that he a false god?
Paul is not contradicting himself. Paul is clearly saying that there are no other Gods, yet Paul calls Jesus God.
Is it unscriptural for me to call Jesus my Lord and my God or not?
If you think so then show me why.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Jesus claimed to be God?
No he said he was the Son of that God and that God was his father.You have become confused by feeding on the folly of theologians.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,15:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 09 2009,21:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,17:32) Hi WJ,
Of course he is not the one true God.
For us there is one God the Father ….and one Lord Jesus Christ[1cor8]
Hi HNAs you say there is only “One True God” now you have to decide if Jesus is “True” or not. Or is he just some little god that the Father called “God”.
Believe all the scriptures NH! Or believe some and reject the others, the choice is yours!
WJ
WJ,Nick didn't just make up that there was Only One True God.
Jesus Christ said it, Was Jesus wrong when he said that the Father was THE ONLY TRUE GOD?Either Jesus is wrong or you are, which is it?
Hi BDJesus also made claims to be God, though you and others deny his claims. He claimed to be equal to the Father and that is why the Jews crucified him.
So then like Nick you can alos white out the scriptures that claim his deity if you want, and not accept the scriptures calling Jesus God? Or do you believe that he a false god?
Paul is not contradicting himself. Paul is clearly saying that there are no other Gods, yet Paul calls Jesus God.
Is it unscriptural for me to call Jesus my Lord and my God or not?
If you think so then show me why.
WJ
Jesus never ever claimed to be God, in fact he taught us all to pray to his God and our God and told us true worshippers worship the Father in spirit and in truth. In other words God is never worshipped in the flesh because God is not a man, nor a son of man.I do believe that you love God and seek to do what is right:
Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Hi MK
Quote (meerkat @ June 10 2009,12:02) The context is in Titus 2:10 God is referred to as our saviour and in Titus 1 Jesus is referred to as our Saviour when we get to 2:13 we are looking for the blessed hope and glory of the appearance/brightness of “the Great God” and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
This is why you guys live in confusion and turmoil over certain scriptures. They do not reconcile with your false doctrines. So you have to create all kinds of apologetics and twisting or manipulating scriptures to make them work for you, rather than accepting them as they read.You don’t get it, to Paul the Father and Jesus is his God that is why it is hard to tell sometimes who he is talking about. So Paul is very careful to make sure the readers do not mistake him for a Modalist, by giving the Father the title “God” and Jesus the title “Lord”, these titles are not exclusive to either one.
So, let’s look at the closer context…
while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious *APPEARING* (epiphaneia) of our great “God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US” from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13, 14
The Greek word for “appearing” is ‘epiphaneia’ which means;
1) an appearing, appearance
It is translated AV — appearing 5 times, brightness 1 time.
Do you guys have your eyes and ears open, because this is the double whammy.
As you can see in verse 14 Paul continues his sentence by telling us who it is that is going to appear…
Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!!
Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
First he says he will appear, and we know there are “no” scriptures that say the Father is going to appear, or that the Father is who we are looking for to return.
But to put the nail in the coffin, Paul uses the word “epiphaneia” exclusively for the Lord Jesus Christ return in all the 6 times he used it in the NT.
to keep this command without spot or blame until “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”, 1 Tim 6:14
but it has now been revealed through “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS”, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:10
In the presence of God and of “CHRIST JESUS, WHO WILL JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD, AND IN VIEW OF HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) AND HIS KINGDOM”, I give you this charge: 2 Tim 4:1
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which “THE LORD, THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE, WILL AWARD TO ME ON THAT DAY–AND NOT ONLY TO ME, BUT ALSO TO ALL WHO HAVE LONGED FOR HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA)”. 2 Tim 4:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom “THE LORD JESUS WILL OVERTHROW WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH AND DESTROY BY THE SPLENDOR (EPIPHANEIA) OF HIS COMING”. 2 Thess 2:8
This scriptural fact together with the Grandville Sharp rule leaves Titus 2:13 unambiguous as to Paul’s confession that Jesus is his Great God and Savior.
Couple that with what Paul wrote In Phil 2 that Jesus was “in very nature God” and that he thought it not robbery to be equal to God the Father, along with this scripture which also fits Grandville Sharps rule…
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our “ONLY MASTER AND LORD, JESUS CHRIST”. Jude 1:4
And another scripture that follows the rule is…
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1 Peter who was also a witness of Jesus and Thomas confession claims Jesus as his God and Savior.
You guys can close your eyes and ears if you want, but scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is called God by the Apostles. Now you can believe that he is “a god” or a false god, or no god at all, but the fact remains that the Trinitarian is following biblical truth by confessing as the Apostles did that Jesus is their Lord and God. This does not take away from the Father for it is also the Father that declared him as such and commands the Angels to worship him. We are to honor the Son “even as” the Father. This is his commandment!
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28
There is no ambiguity in Thomas words, and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and neither did John the witness who claims Jesus is God also, he also does not correct him.
So my confession is “I am looking for the appearing of my Great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ my Lord!
Blessings WJ
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 10 2009,00:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,15:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 09 2009,21:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,17:32) Hi WJ,
Of course he is not the one true God.
For us there is one God the Father ….and one Lord Jesus Christ[1cor8]
Hi HNAs you say there is only “One True God” now you have to decide if Jesus is “True” or not. Or is he just some little god that the Father called “God”.
Believe all the scriptures NH! Or believe some and reject the others, the choice is yours!
WJ
WJ,Nick didn't just make up that there was Only One True God.
Jesus Christ said it, Was Jesus wrong when he said that the Father was THE ONLY TRUE GOD?Either Jesus is wrong or you are, which is it?
Hi BDJesus also made claims to be God, though you and others deny his claims. He claimed to be equal to the Father and that is why the Jews crucified him.
So then like Nick you can alos white out the scriptures that claim his deity if you want, and not accept the scriptures calling Jesus God? Or do you believe that he a false god?
Paul is not contradicting himself. Paul is clearly saying that there are no other Gods, yet Paul calls Jesus God.
Is it unscriptural for me to call Jesus my Lord and my God or not?
If you think so then show me why.
WJ
Jesus never ever claimed to be God, in fact he taught us all to pray to his God and our God and told us true worshippers worship the Father in spirit and in truth. In other words God is never worshipped in the flesh because God is not a man, nor a son of man.I do believe that you love God and seek to do what is right:
Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Hi BDThis is one of Jesus claims to deity if you have ears to hear…
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7
So Thomas asked Jesus to show him God.
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. John 14:8
Jesus answer was…
Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
How long have I been with you Philip and you do not know that I am the one you are seeking for. Why do you ask me to show you God? If you have seen me you have seen God! Jesus was not talking about his flesh and blood. He was talking about their spiritual eyes to see who he really was!
Jesus is the “Image of the Invisible God”, and if your image of him is less than God than you have created a false image of God, for you cannot know or see the Father God apart from the Son. He who has the Son has the Father also, why?,
because the Son is God also!Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
So you are not saying Jesus was the Father? Jesus identified the God of the Jews as the Father.
Likewise he said true worshipers worship the Father who is our God and His.
But rebellious still men prefer their own ideas to his.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,17:29) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 10 2009,00:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,15:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 09 2009,21:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 10 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2009,17:32) Hi WJ,
Of course he is not the one true God.
For us there is one God the Father ….and one Lord Jesus Christ[1cor8]
Hi HNAs you say there is only “One True God” now you have to decide if Jesus is “True” or not. Or is he just some little god that the Father called “God”.
Believe all the scriptures NH! Or believe some and reject the others, the choice is yours!
WJ
WJ,Nick didn't just make up that there was Only One True God.
Jesus Christ said it, Was Jesus wrong when he said that the Father was THE ONLY TRUE GOD?Either Jesus is wrong or you are, which is it?
Hi BDJesus also made claims to be God, though you and others deny his claims. He claimed to be equal to the Father and that is why the Jews crucified him.
So then like Nick you can alos white out the scriptures that claim his deity if you want, and not accept the scriptures calling Jesus God? Or do you believe that he a false god?
Paul is not contradicting himself. Paul is clearly saying that there are no other Gods, yet Paul calls Jesus God.
Is it unscriptural for me to call Jesus my Lord and my God or not?
If you think so then show me why.
WJ
Jesus never ever claimed to be God, in fact he taught us all to pray to his God and our God and told us true worshippers worship the Father in spirit and in truth. In other words God is never worshipped in the flesh because God is not a man, nor a son of man.I do believe that you love God and seek to do what is right:
Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Hi BDThis is one of Jesus claims to deity if you have ears to hear…
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7
So Thomas asked Jesus to show him God.
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. John 14:8
Jesus answer was…
Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
How long have I been with you Philip and you do not know that I am the one you are seeking for. Why do you ask me to show you God? If you have seen me you have seen God! Jesus was not talking about his flesh and blood. He was talking about their spiritual eyes to see who he really was!
Jesus is the “Image of the Invisible God”, and if your image of him is less than God than you have created a false image of God, for you cannot know or see the Father God apart from the Son. He who has the Son has the Father also, why?,
because the Son is God also!Blessings WJ
You just made a fatal flaw in your logic because of course you do not believe that Jesus is the Father so Jesus was not claiming to be God he was claiming what he had claimed the entire time: The Spirit of God was upon him and he was sent by God.Why do you think that they to whom the word of God was given were called gods?
I don't how much time it takes for some to understand Only true God and His son the Messiah Jesus. If they make Jesus who is the image of that One and only God(Jn 5:44) as another God then they are in real Polytheism which is dead against Jewish Monotheism. So please be careful.
Peace to you all
AdamMeerkat said:
Quote Thinker, I do not deny that Jesus is our Saviour – Because Jesus is our Saviour does not mean that God is not the Saviour of mankind. He is saving mankind through his mediator – the man Jesus whom he has raised to his right hand.
See 1 Tim 2:3-5
God is our Saviour, he has raised up Jesus from the dead for that purpose, to save us.
Meerkat,
I do NOT deny that God is our Savior. I want to make that very clear. But the argument the anti-trinitarians use is that in Titus 2:13 the nouns “God” and Savior” are not the same person. By their own rule then the statement would be denying that God is Savior.Grammatically the nouns “God” and “Savior” are a reference to the same person. That person is Jesus Christ. This grammatical rule has not been disproved.
blessings,
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote As you can see in verse 14 Paul continues his sentence by telling us who it is that is going to appear… Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!!
Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
WJ,
Excellent bro! Even I overlooked verse 14. I hope Unitarian hermeneutics aren't rubbing off on me. You're absolutely correct. The only God and Savior who “gave Himself for us to redeem us” was Jesus Christ. Therefore, “God” and “Savior” in verse 13 cannot refer to the Father.thanks,
thinker
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