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Hi,
John 8:5454Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Jesus told us our God is the Father.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2009,17:43) Hi,
John 8:5454Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Jesus told us our God is the Father.
Hi Nick,
Jesus honors the Father and tells all that the Father is His God right?Well, the Father honors the Son and it is from His word that we see that the Father honors the Son by referring to Him as “God” and “Son” etc.
Context tells us that when the Father refers to Him as “God,” the Father makes it clear that He is the God of Him (the Son).LU
Lightenup said:
Quote What light comes from true light? Is it false light or is it true light? It is true light. You see, to be the true light doesn't necessarily mean that He is the utimate source of light. If the Son was from the true light, He would also reflect the true light. Is GOD the Father of true lights or false lights? The answer…true lights. Kathi,
John said that Christ was the genuine light. This necessarily means that there is only one that is the Light. Whenever Jesus said that He was something “genuine” He meant that He was the one and only of whatever it was. For instance, Jesus said,Quote I am the genuine vine (John 15:1).
He was NOT declaring that the He was a vine under the Father who was a greater vine. He meant that He himself ALONE is the vine. This is substantiated by His next statement when He said that the Father is the “vinedresser”.So Christ ALONE is the genuine Light.
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ June 03 2009,10:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2009,17:43) Hi,
John 8:5454Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Jesus told us our God is the Father.
Hi Nick,
Jesus honors the Father and tells all that the Father is His God right?Well, the Father honors the Son and it is from His word that we see that the Father honors the Son by referring to Him as “God” and “Son” etc.
Context tells us that when the Father refers to Him as “God,” the Father makes it clear that He is the God of Him (the Son).LU
Hi LU,
Do I understand you to mean the Father is in submission to the Son??Our God is the God of Jesus too[jn20]
Lightenup said:
Quote Good grief Keith,
one Most High GOD
one Son from the Most High GOD who shares the nature of His Father making Him God from GOD.
The wisdom, power, purpose, nature, direction etc. all trickles down from ONE-the Most High GOD. It trickles down from Him through His Son.GOD the Father, the source is ONE and the Son is a true Son not something different than a true Son like you say. He is not just a son because GOD told Him that He was a son IMO. And yes, everything I say is my opinion which doesn't make it wrong just because it is my opinion, BTW. A Son by nature (as in reproduction-birth) is different than a son merely by declaration or creation for that matter or adoption.
Kathi,
Keith has it right. You are a polytheist. Are you not aware that polytheism teaches that the many gods exist in the form of a heirarchy? You have two gods with one being over the other. This is pure polytheism. No matter how you try to sell it you cannot escape the facts. Your Most High God and your lesser God under Him is pure, unadulterated polytheism. Have you taken any courses on these things?
thinker
Hi TT,
Polytheism is the expertise of those who think God is a trinity of three in one.
There are many gods as 1 cor 8 shows.It is often used just as a generic term for greatness.
Jesus even called men gods.Quote (thethinker @ June 03 2009,10:18) Lightenup said: Quote What light comes from true light? Is it false light or is it true light? It is true light. You see, to be the true light doesn't necessarily mean that He is the utimate source of light. If the Son was from the true light, He would also reflect the true light. Is GOD the Father of true lights or false lights? The answer…true lights. Kathi,
John said that Christ was the genuine light. This necessarily means that there is only one that is the Light. Whenever Jesus said that He was something “genuine” He meant that He was the one and only of whatever it was. For instance, Jesus said,Quote I am the genuine vine (John 15:1).
He was NOT declaring that the He was a vine under the Father who was a greater vine. He meant that He himself ALONE is the vine. This is substantiated by His next statement when He said that the Father is the “vinedresser”.So Christ ALONE is the genuine Light.
thinker
But Jesus says that he is the light as long as he is in the world he does not say he is always the light.You know if all would understand that God is a tittle, then you would not have so many problems. The Father did call Jesus God in Hebrew. We should know, that the Father is greater then the Son, and above all. Ephesians 4:6 one Father of all, who is above all, and in you all. There is no trinity, you cannot prove it in the Bible.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2009,16:02) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,15:37)
Jesus is my God from the Most High GOD. Both are who I follow and worship and serve.
This means you are serving and worshipping 2 Gods and that by definition is Polytheism!Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) Good grief Keith,
one Most High GOD
one Son from the Most High GOD who shares the nature of His Father making Him God from GOD.
Is there a scripture that says Jesus “shares” the nature of God?And why do you use Capitalization as such, “GOD, and God”? This flies in the face of 100s of scholars who translated the translations on Biblegateway.com and Blueletterbible.org and makes no distinction between the word “Theos” and its reference to the Father and to the Son.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) The wisdom, power, purpose, nature, direction etc. all trickles down from ONE-the Most High GOD. It trickles down from Him through His Son.
Sounds like economics to me and not a Kingdom where the King has all Power and Authority. And if what you say is true then why would Jesus have to subject himself to the Father when all things are subjected to him (Jesus)?When all things are subjected to Him, (Jesus) “then” the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
It appears that Jesus is not subject to the Father at this time but rather is seated at the right hand of the Father, not beneath him, nor above him but at his right hand with all power and authority given to him!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) GOD the Father, the source is ONE and the Son is a true Son not something different than a true Son like you say.
Why do you think that the Son is not the source also?The scriptures say that “by him all things consist”. Col 1:17
The fact that all things comes through him means that he is our source.
You create an unnecessary conundrum by claiming that because all things come through him is proof that he is not God. If that is true then the following scripture would mean that the Father is not God.
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Romans 11:36
Contextually Paul in my opinion is speaking of Jesus since Paul mostly refers to Jesus as Lord “kyrios” in order to distinguish between the Father and the Son.
But if Paul is claiming that Romans 11:36 is the Father then the use of the word “dia” in relation to all things of course destroys any concept that because all things come through Jesus he can not be God!
Compare Paul’s language in Romans 11:36 with his language in
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.The language here for Jesus is closer to the language in Romans 11:36, in which case Paul would be claiming all things are of Jesus and through Jesus and by Jesus and therefore claiming Jesus is God.
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Romans 11:36
Either way these scriptures are proof of two things.
1. Jesus also is the source
2. Because all things come through the Son is no proof that he is not God, but in fact is quite the opposite!
Have you considered that the Spirit flows from the Father and Jesus…
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb Rev 22:1
This makes Jesus also the source of life!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) He is not just a son because GOD told Him that He was a son IMO.
No he was declared to be a Son when he who was the Word/God and was in very nature God emptied himself and took on the form of a servant by leaving his place of Glory and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh and was born a Son by immaculate conception through the virgin Mary and was given the name “Emmanuel” God with us, and being found in fashion as a man was declared by the Angel that the Holy thing which was born of her is the Son of God.Jesus beginning as a “Son” was when he came in the flesh.
Not that he was born a Son and then died and was born again.
That is the definition of “reincarnation”.
Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, John 1:14, 18, Luke 1:35, Matt 1:23
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) And yes, everything I say is my opinion which doesn't make it wrong just because it is my opinion, BTW.
You miss my point! Some things are not a matter of opinion but are clearly scriptural and are unambiguous.Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) A Son by nature (as in reproduction-birth) is different than a son merely by declaration or creation for that matter or adoption.
But you do not believe the “Ontological” nature of the Son is the same as the Father. You have created your own idea of how the Son is the Son but not exactly.Have you considered that while we are adopted that we also are born from above? So if what you say is true then Jesus cannot be considered as the “Monogenes” Son!
Not so with Jesus for he came from above and was born the Son of man and the Son of God.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23)
Also, regarding the light. The Son is the Light but He is not the Father of Himself. The Father is the Father of Lights.Blessings,
Kathi
But Jesus is not just “a light” he is “The true Light”!Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2009,11:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2009,16:02) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,15:37)
Jesus is my God from the Most High GOD. Both are who I follow and worship and serve.
This means you are serving and worshipping 2 Gods and that by definition is Polytheism!Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) Good grief Keith,
one Most High GOD
one Son from the Most High GOD who shares the nature of His Father making Him God from GOD.
Is there a scripture that says Jesus “shares” the nature of God?And why do you use Capitalization as such, “GOD, and God”? This flies in the face of 100s of scholars who translated the translations on Biblegateway.com and Blueletterbible.org and makes no distinction between the word “Theos” and its reference to the Father and to the Son.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) The wisdom, power, purpose, nature, direction etc. all trickles down from ONE-the Most High GOD. It trickles down from Him through His Son.
Sounds like economics to me and not a Kingdom where the King has all Power and Authority. And if what you say is true then why would Jesus have to subject himself to the Father when all things are subjected to him (Jesus)?When all things are subjected to Him, (Jesus) “then” the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
It appears that Jesus is not subject to the Father at this time but rather is seated at the right hand of the Father, not beneath him, nor above him but at his right hand with all power and authority given to him!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) GOD the Father, the source is ONE and the Son is a true Son not something different than a true Son like you say.
Why do you think that the Son is not the source also?The scriptures say that “by him all things consist”. Col 1:17
The fact that all things comes through him means that he is our source.
You create an unnecessary conundrum by claiming that because all things come through him is proof that he is not God. If that is true then the following scripture would mean that the Father is not God.
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Romans 11:36
Contextually Paul in my opinion is speaking of Jesus since Paul mostly refers to Jesus as Lord “kyrios” in order to distinguish between the Father and the Son.
But if Paul is claiming that Romans 11:36 is the Father then the use of the word “dia” in relation to all things of course destroys any concept that because all things come through Jesus he can not be God!
Compare Paul’s language in Romans 11:36 with his language in
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.The language here for Jesus is closer to the language in Romans 11:36, in which case Paul would be claiming all things are of Jesus and through Jesus and by Jesus and therefore claiming Jesus is God.
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Romans 11:36
Either way these scriptures are proof of two things.
1. Jesus also is the source
2. Because all things come through the Son is no proof that he is not God, but in fact is quite the opposite!
Have you considered that the Spirit flows from the Father and Jesus…
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb Rev 22:1
This makes Jesus also the source of life!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) He is not just a son because GOD told Him that He was a son IMO.
No he was declared to be a Son when he who was the Word/God and was in very nature God emptied himself and took on the form of a servant by leaving his place of Glory and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh and was born a Son by immaculate conception through the virgin Mary and was given the name “Emmanuel” God with us, and being found in fashion as a man was declared by the Angel that the Holy thing which was born of her is the Son of God.Jesus beginning as a “Son” was when he came in the flesh.
Not that he was born a Son and then died and was born again.
That is the definition of “reincarnation”.
Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, John 1:14, 18, Luke 1:35, Matt 1:23
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) And yes, everything I say is my opinion which doesn't make it wrong just because it is my opinion, BTW.
You miss my point! Some things are not a matter of opinion but are clearly scriptural and are unambiguous.Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23) A Son by nature (as in reproduction-birth) is different than a son merely by declaration or creation for that matter or adoption.
But you do not believe the “Ontological” nature of the Son is the same as the Father. You have created your own idea of how the Son is the Son but not exactly.Have you considered that while we are adopted that we also are born from above? So if what you say is true then Jesus cannot be considered as the “Monogenes” Son!
Not so with Jesus for he came from above and was born the Son of man and the Son of God.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,17:23)
Also, regarding the light. The Son is the Light but He is not the Father of Himself. The Father is the Fa
ther of Lights.Blessings,
Kathi
But Jesus is not just “a light” he is “The true Light”!Blessings WJ
Jesus said that he was the light while he was in the world. God is the Father of lights always.Hi BD
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 02 2009,19:41) Jesus said that he was the light while he was in the world. God is the Father of lights always.
Look again, for the Light of Jesus is still in the world, is it not?WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,11:55) Hi WJ,
The light is still in the world in the sons of God by the Spirit of Jesus and God in them.
Powerful!Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2009,19:55) Hi WJ,
The light is still in the world in the sons of God by the Spirit of Jesus and God in them.
Hi NHWell at least you admit the Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God!
True, Jesus is the true light in his body, his people!
Powerful.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Of course.
Jesus himself died.
He lives in the Spirit of God.
Likewise the anointed men of old live.
We too die in baptism to live in the abiding Spirit.
In Christ's given Spirit of life is the only eternal life for all.Jn7-the fountain springing up to eternal life-in him is life.[Jn3]
The living Spirit of God is in all who remain after the Judgement
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,00:25) Hi WJ,
Of course.
Jesus himself died.
He lives in the Spirit of God.
Likewise the anointed men of old live.
We too die in baptism to live in the abiding Spirit.
In Christ's given Spirit of life is the only eternal life for all.Jn7-the fountain springing up to eternal life-in him is life.[Jn3]
The living Spirit of God is in all who remain after the Judgement
Hi NHQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,00:25) He lives in the Spirit of God. I thought the Spirit lives in him!
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev 22:1
Who is that water of life that flows out of the throne of God and the Lamb?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
God lives in him and He lives in God.We should follow him into his death and resurrection into eternal life in God's Spirit.
Quote (Cindy @ June 03 2009,10:57) You know if all would understand that God is a tittle, then you would not have so many problems. The Father did call Jesus God in Hebrew. We should know, that the Father is greater then the Son, and above all. Ephesians 4:6 one Father of all, who is above all, and in you all. There is no trinity, you cannot prove it in the Bible.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
You admitted that the Father called the Son “God” in Hebrews. Then you say that there is no trinity. You are contradicting yourself.thinker
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