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Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 13 2011,04:41) WJ Quote Thanks for bringing up this thread. I had been looking for this post of mine for some time. Tit 2:13, 14 is unambiguous and proof Jesus is God. 
WJ,Looks like you shut Peirre's mouth at least for a little while.
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 12 2011,11:28) Hey Jack Thanks for bringing up this thread. I had been looking for this post of mine for some time. Tit 2:13, 14 is unambiguous and proof Jesus is God.
So, let’s look at the closer context…
while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious *APPEARING* (epiphaneia) of our great “God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US” from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13, 14
The Greek word for “appearing” is ‘epiphaneia’ which means;
1) an appearing, appearance
It is translated AV — appearing 5 times, brightness 1 time.
Do you guys have your eyes and ears open, because this is the double whammy.
As you can see in verse 14 Paul continues his sentence by telling us who it is that is going to appear…
Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!!
Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
First he says he will appear, and we know there are “no” scriptures that say the Father is going to appear, or that the Father is who we are looking for to return.
But to put the nail in the coffin, Paul uses the word “epiphaneia” exclusively for the Lord Jesus Christ return in all the 6 times he used it in the NT.
to keep this command without spot or blame until “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”, 1 Tim 6:14
but it has now been revealed through “THE APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) OF OUR SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS”, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:10
In the presence of God and of “CHRIST JESUS, WHO WILL JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD, AND IN VIEW OF HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA) AND HIS KINGDOM”, I give you this charge: 2 Tim 4:1
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which “THE LORD, THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE, WILL AWARD TO ME ON THAT DAY–AND NOT ONLY TO ME, BUT ALSO TO ALL WHO HAVE LONGED FOR HIS APPEARING (EPIPHANEIA)”. 2 Tim 4:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom “THE LORD JESUS WILL OVERTHROW WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH AND DESTROY BY THE SPLENDOR (EPIPHANEIA) OF HIS COMING”. 2 Thess 2:8
This scriptural fact together with the Grandville Sharp rule leaves Titus 2:13 unambiguous as to Paul’s confession that Jesus is his Great God and Savior.
Couple that with what Paul wrote In Phil 2 that Jesus was “in very nature God” and that he thought it not robbery to be equal to God the Father, along with this scripture which also fits Grandville Sharps rule…
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our “ONLY MASTER AND LORD, JESUS CHRIST”. Jude 1:4
And another scripture that follows the rule is…
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1 Peter who was also a witness of Jesus and Thomas confession claims Jesus as his God and Savior.
You guys can close your eyes and ears if you want, but scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is called God by the Apostles. Now you can believe that he is “a god” or a false god, or no god at all, but the fact remains that the Trinitarian is following biblical truth by confessing as the Apostles did that Jesus is their Lord and God. This does not take away from the Father for it is also the Father that declared him as such and commands the Angels to worship him. We are to honor the Son “even as” the Father. This is his commandment!
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28
There is no ambiguity in Thomas words, and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and neither did John the witness who claims Jesus is God also, he also does not correct him.
So my confession is “I am looking for the appearing of my Great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ my Lord!
Blessings WJ
Great post Keith! This should go in the anti-Jesus is God fallacies thread if it is not already there.Blessings,
KathiKeith said:
Quote And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28 There is no ambiguity in Thomas words, and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and neither did John the witness who claims Jesus is God also, he also does not correct him.
Jesus surely had the opportunity to rebuke Thomas. Instead He pronounced blessing upon Thomas for his confession.Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 12 2011,11:44) WJ said: Quote Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!! Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
Keith,Exactly bro! In Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said, “I am your Goel (kinsman-redeemer).” The Father cannot qualify because under the law a redeemer was required to be a blood relative which is what the word “goel” means. It means, “blood relative-purchaser.”
Jesus was the only YHWH who was Israel's blood relative-purchaser or “goel.”
Triple whammy!
Jack
Very Good Jack!
FatherSonHoly Spirit = One YHWH,One God!WJ
All ! What does that proof? Not that the trinity is right, otherwise Scriptures would contradict itself, which it doesn't….
1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesian. clearly says that God and Father of all is above all…..
Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.
Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
This Scriptures in the Old Testament mainly say LORD in all capital letters, it should say Jehovah God… LORD stands for Jehovah…
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
NOTICE THAT IT SAYS HIS NAME ALONE IS CALLED JEHOVAH….
Psa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.
Also the trinity is three persons in one…. There is no way tht Gods Holy Spirit is a person, rather it is the Spirit of Jehovah…. Or LORD..
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The Spirit of God……
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
My Spirit….Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
The Spirit of God….
1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
The Spirit of God…..
There is no trinity…. It rather saddens me that so many believe in that doctrine of man. We also have Family members, who believe in it… So it comes close to my heart…. Our Son belongs to the Baptist Church and it makes me sad that His Parents cannot tell Him how wrong the trinity is…. But t is no surprise to me…. Unless God opens your mind to the truth…….. At one time we too where blind to the truth…. nothing new under the Son… However I will forever stand up for the truth…..
Also it was Quintus Septimus Flornence Tertullian who first came up with the trinity in the third century….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Pastry @ Aug. 12 2011,14:09) Our Son belongs to the Baptist Church and it makes me sad that His Parents cannot tell Him how wrong the trinity is…. But t is no surprise to me…. Unless God opens your mind to the truth…….. At one time we too where blind to the truth…. nothing new under the Son…
IreneI think you should listen to your kids. You have been decieved by the JWs and traded the Jesus that saved you for another Jesus!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2011,06:15) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 12 2011,14:09) Our Son belongs to the Baptist Church and it makes me sad that His Parents cannot tell Him how wrong the trinity is…. But t is no surprise to me…. Unless God opens your mind to the truth…….. At one time we too where blind to the truth…. nothing new under the Son…
IreneI think you should listen to your kids. You have been decieved by the JWs and traded the Jesus that saved you for another Jesus!
WJ
The Jehovah's have nothing to do with it…. We studied all by ourselves. When someone told us about John 1:1 early in 1994 we told them you are crazy…. But after a lengthy study of those Scriptures I just gave all, we did change our minds…. There is no trinity…. it is a man-made doctrine… not of God……Also Keith, can you proof the trinity? By Scriptures, especially the Holy Spirit being a person? Where is that in any Scripture?
Peace and Love IreneHere is a smoking gun to end the idea of Jesus being 'a god' and not 'a God.' I think we all agree that Jesus will exist for eternity, right? Well, if He were just 'a god' then He would not.
Jer 10:1 Hear the word which the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
2Thus says the LORD,
“Do not learn the way of the nations,
And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens
Although the nations are terrified by them;3For the customs of the peoples are delusion;
Because it is wood cut from the forest,
The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.4“They decorate it with silver and with gold;
They fasten it with nails and with hammers
So that it will not totter.5“Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field are they,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot walk!
Do not fear them,
For they can do no harm,
Nor can they do any good.”6There is none like You, O LORD;
You are great, and great is Your name in might.7Who would not fear You, O King of the nations?
Indeed it is Your due!
For among all the wise men of the nations
And in all their kingdoms,
There is none like You.8But they are altogether stupid and foolish
In their discipline of delusion—their idol is wood!9Beaten silver is brought from Tarshish,
And gold from Uphaz,
The work of a craftsman and of the hands of a goldsmith;
Violet and purple are their clothing;
They are all the work of skilled men.10But the LORD is the true God;
He is the living God and the everlasting King.
At His wrath the earth quakes,
And the nations cannot endure His indignation.11Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
12It is He who made the earth by His power,
Who established the world by His wisdom;
And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.13When He utters His voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens,
And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain,
And brings out the wind from His storehouses.14Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge;
Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols;
For his molten images are deceitful,
And there is no breath in them.15They are worthless, a work of mockery;
In the time of their punishment they will perish.16The portion of Jacob is not like these;
For the Maker of all is He,
And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance;
The LORD of hosts is His name.Mike claims that Jesus did not create anything and that Jesus is just a 'god' and not a God.
This is what Jehovah says to tell the gods that did not create heaven and earth:
Jer 10:11 Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
Mike, are you going to tell Jesus that He will perish? If all 'gods' are going to perish then you are higher than all the 'gods' because you believe that you will have eternal life. So, therefore you are higher than Jesus?? That's scary Mike.
Kathi
Irene,
You want us all to believe that Jehovah is one person. However we know that all things came into being by Jesus. How does that fit with this verse?Isaiah 44:24Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,
“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone,John 1:1-5
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.Hebrews 1
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”Irene this is not hard. Jehovah is more than one person.
Kathi
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2011,12:52) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 12 2011,11:44) WJ said: Quote Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!! Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
Keith,Exactly bro! In Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said, “I am your Goel (kinsman-redeemer).” The Father cannot qualify because under the law a redeemer was required to be a blood relative which is what the word “goel” means. It means, “blood relative-purchaser.”
Jesus was the only YHWH who was Israel's blood relative-purchaser or “goel.”
Triple whammy!
Jack
Very Good Jack! FatherSonHoly Spirit = One YHWH,One God!WJ
WJyou for sure have great dancing qualities,
but lack scriptural support to that Jesus = God the father thing
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 12 2011,11:44) WJ said: Quote Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!! Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
Keith,Exactly bro! In Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said, “I am your Goel (kinsman-redeemer).” The Father cannot qualify because under the law a redeemer was required to be a blood relative which is what the word “goel” means. It means, “blood relative-purchaser.”
Jesus was the only YHWH who was Israel's blood relative-purchaser or “goel.”
Triple whammy!
Jack
Great point Jack…this should be in the anti-Jesus is God fallacies and the Jesus is deity scripture database.Blessings,
KathiKatjhi wrote:
Quote Mike claims that Jesus did not create anything and that Jesus is just a 'god' and not a God.
Mike blatantly contradicts the Father whom he says is His God (Heb. 1:8-10).Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 13 2011,03:44) WJ said: Quote Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!! Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
Keith,Exactly bro! In Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said, “I am your Goel (kinsman-redeemer).” The Father cannot qualify because under the law a redeemer was required to be a blood relative which is what the word “goel” means. It means, “blood relative-purchaser.”
Jesus was the only YHWH who was Israel's blood relative-purchaser or “goel.”
Triple whammy!
Jack
Hi Jack,It looks like the word “AND” has eluded you once again; No?
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, “AND” his redeemer the LORD of Hosts;
I the first, and I the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPierre FALSELY accused WJ saying:
Quote you for sure have great dancing qualities, but lack scriptural support to that Jesus = God the father thing
Where has WJ ever said that Jesus = God the Father? You have crossed over into false witness which YOUR God has prohibited. You owe WJ an apology sir!KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 13 2011,05:44) Keith said: Quote And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28 There is no ambiguity in Thomas words, and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and neither did John the witness who claims Jesus is God also, he also does not correct him.
Jesus surely had the opportunity to rebuke Thomas. Instead He pronounced blessing upon Thomas for his confession.Jack
Hi Jack,Are you somehow forgetting the connection that God was inside of Jesus?
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself …(2Cor.5:19)Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 13 2011,07:20) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 13 2011,05:44) Keith said: Quote And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28 There is no ambiguity in Thomas words, and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and neither did John the witness who claims Jesus is God also, he also does not correct him.
Jesus surely had the opportunity to rebuke Thomas. Instead He pronounced blessing upon Thomas for his confession.Jack
Hi Jack,Are you somehow forgetting the connection that God was inside of Jesus?
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself …(2Cor.5:19)
Are you somehow forgetting the connection that Jesus was in the Father? Are you aware that a half truth is a FULL lie?The “in” in 2 Corinthians 5:19 means that God was reconcling the world to Himself on the basis of Christ. How could God have been “in” Christ reconciling as you say when He forsook Him? Was God “in” the sacrificial lamb of the old testament? Come on!
Think Eddie think!
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 13 2011,07:38) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 13 2011,07:20) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 13 2011,05:44) Keith said: Quote And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, “MY LORD AND MY GOD”. John 20:28 There is no ambiguity in Thomas words, and Jesus didn’t rebuke him and neither did John the witness who claims Jesus is God also, he also does not correct him.
Jesus surely had the opportunity to rebuke Thomas. Instead He pronounced blessing upon Thomas for his confession.Jack
Hi Jack,Are you somehow forgetting the connection that God was inside of Jesus?
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself …(2Cor.5:19)
Are you somehow forgetting the connection that Jesus was in the Father? Are you aware that a half truth is a FULL lie?The “in” in 2 Corinthians 5:19 means that God was reconcling the world to Himself on the basis of Christ. How could God have been “in” Christ reconciling as you say when He forsook Him? Was God “in” the sacrificial lamb of the old testament? Come on!
Think Eddie think!
Jack
Hi Jack,Would you call this a half truth or a whole lie? …
…If I tell you I went to the show, but don't tell you
I stopped at the store on the way back from the show.Are you familiar with what the term “Testator” means or no?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 13 2011,07:14) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 13 2011,03:44) WJ said: Quote Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US”!!! Is this terminology used of the Father anywhere in scriptures?
Keith,Exactly bro! In Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said, “I am your Goel (kinsman-redeemer).” The Father cannot qualify because under the law a redeemer was required to be a blood relative which is what the word “goel” means. It means, “blood relative-purchaser.”
Jesus was the only YHWH who was Israel's blood relative-purchaser or “goel.”
Triple whammy!
Jack
Hi Jack,It looks like the word “AND” has eluded you once again; No?
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, “AND” his redeemer the LORD of Hosts;
I the first, and I the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Has logic eluded you Eddie? If the “and” suggests two persons, then you have just implied that there are two YHWH's.You said:
Quote Thus saith the YHWH the King of Israel, “AND” his redeemer the YHWH of Hosts;
The “his” refers to Israel.Quote “Thus saith the YHWH the King of Israel, AND his (Israel's) redeemer YHWH of Hosts.”
It is saying that YHWH is Israel's King AND his (Israel's) Redeemer. The word “redeemer” is “goel” which means “blood relative-purchaser.” Jesus is the only YHWH who was Israel's blood relative-purchaser.You're putting me to sleep Eddie.
Jack
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