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Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 20 2007,13:53) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 19 2007,20:41) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 20 2007,11:55) Do you truly believe if, as your bible says, G-d is love that He would eternally punish people for not believing in Jesus when this is much evidence against his existence?
According to Stu there is much evidence against the existence of God, as well. Do you think you will not be rewarded if you do not believe God truly exists?
That is where Stu is wrong. There is no concrete evidence that either disproves or proves in the existence of G-d. So I tend not to debate with atheist over the existence of G-d. Personally all I have to do is look out the window and I'm convinced.
Just like to correct both of you there. I have never given any evidence that claims to disprove the existence of god. I have pointed out that there are many reasons why the god described in the bible is extremely unlikely to be the alleged creator, and that there are many reasons to give his existence a low probablility. I do retain what I consider the only honest stance – there could be a god, but in my opinion based on my experiences and the evidence I see, the existence of such a being is as likely as Bertrand Russell's teapot, or Baal or Zeus. Unicorns are much more likely to exist! My own slightly awkward self-identification as an atheist is a provisional conclusion that there is no supernatural being of any kind. It could be wrong, but I doubt that very much. I still have not found a single person posting here who holds a complimentary opinion, honestly accepting the possibility that there is no god (apart from A4J).It seems that faith can only survive if it excludes any possibility of non-existence of the deity.
Stuart
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 20 2007,04:42) Stu It was my Husband that replied to your post, you have to see if I signed it Mrs. I did not. But of course I belief the same then my Husband, so it really makes no difference, I just want to let people know to watch when you talking about me or my Husband. It is however that you have no Faith as far as I can see. That is what you want to know is it not? The faith that we as Christians have is from GOD BY GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT. You will know the difference if you would except God in your life. But since you are so angry there is no way that God is going to give you His Holy Spirit. How did you become an Atheist anyway, that is what I like to know? Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi MrsIM4Truth, apologies to you and to MrIM4Truth. I was not paying sufficient attention!This is very interesting that Kenrch thinks I have faith and you do not. Do you agree that I do not have faith on the grounds that I do not believe things without evidence (things “unseen”)? I then wonder if Kenrch is making a creationist-type statement in telling me that I have faith.
On the subject of becoming an atheist, I always think of the T-shirt that says “Atheism is the default setting”. I don't believe any child is born christian, or muslim, or communist (although it could be born Jewish, of course). There is no such thing as a “christian baby”, it is a baby of christian parents. The newborn is obviously too young to make up its mind whether or not to believe in the dogmas of christianity. In this way I have remained the non-believer I was at birth.
Thank you for asking!
Stuart
Hi Not3in1
Quote You may be sick of it, but when you put yourself out there it's all fair game. You can't help but notice that we are, most of us, Christians. We can't help but wonder why you even care about faith……. If I were to claim that none of you actually have faith, I would not hear the end of it! Kenrch seems destined to continue his claim of my faith, without explaining it. I can take it!! However, a mantra is no use to me in exploring this idea of how people maintain their commitment to things “unseen”.
Quote We all understand what faith is. It's the building block; the foundation of what we hold dear. To talk and discuss it would be like a college student wanting to review the ABC's. You get my point.
But for you, you seem interested in this elementary thing. Why? More directly, why do you care (inquiring minds want to know!)?Yes, it is a fascinating foible of humans, and it must have an evolutionary advantage, but more than that it is an extremely important thing to understand for everyone, now that the stakes are so high. Fundamentalists are blowing people up in the Middle East and elsewhere and the fundamental religious right in America has the ear of the one who has his finger poised over that destructive button. Now that people have realised the threat of climate change and are beginning to do something about it, I can’t think of a more critical area for discussion than why some people believe things that they can’t show to be true yet are willing to go as far as kill / die for. Can you give me your “ABC” potted definition of the faith you have?
Stuart
Richard Dawkins, good friend to you all (just kidding!) thinks that religious faith stems from a stage of life when we, as children, are programmed for our own survival to accept what we are told by our parents. We seem to retain this unquestioning trust into adulthood in many areas of our lives. I think urban legends and other kinds of recieved opinions that are untrue but become widely accepted spring from the same childlike unquestioning attitude.
Couple all this with the well-known tendancy of non-believers not to “join things”, not even organisation like the brights or secular groups, and I think you have the basis for a genetic cause for the tendancy to faith. Add the separated twin studies that tend to confirm a genetic component to religious belief and I think you are starting to look at a situation where some people are genetically prone to religion (of have a gift for it, depending on your point of view!).
What do you think?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 20 2007,18:48) On the subject of becoming an atheist, I always think of the T-shirt that says “Atheism is the default setting”. I don't believe any child is born christian, or muslim, or communist (although it could be born Jewish, of course). There is no such thing as a “christian baby”, it is a baby of christian parents. The newborn is obviously too young to make up its mind whether or not to believe in the dogmas of christianity. In this way I have remained the non-believer I was at birth.
HmmmInteresting. I'm going to think about this today……
Others – thoughts?
Mandy You need to think on our Savior Jesus Christ rather then what Stu is telling you. I am really worried about you! Think spiritual, let's see what happens when you think of Jesus. I thought once that you had a personal relationship with Jesus? It is because that Stu never had that, that He feels the way He does. But knowing Jesus through God's Holy Spirit we are able to have the Faith in what Jesus teaches us. We have the Bible that I believe is the Word of God. The monchs in the 3th century had little pieces of Letters from the Apostles that latter became the New Testament. Those are eye witnesses. I know through the centuries that some were added, but you can see when you look at the whole picture what is true. Please don't loose faith, Mandy.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 21 2007,05:21) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 20 2007,18:48) On the subject of becoming an atheist, I always think of the T-shirt that says “Atheism is the default setting”. I don't believe any child is born christian, or muslim, or communist (although it could be born Jewish, of course). There is no such thing as a “christian baby”, it is a baby of christian parents. The newborn is obviously too young to make up its mind whether or not to believe in the dogmas of christianity. In this way I have remained the non-believer I was at birth.
HmmmInteresting. I'm going to think about this today……
Others – thoughts?
Mandy are we born of the flesh or of the Spirit? Sure our flesh is not even born Jewish but our spirit is Jewish to the highest degree.We don't have Jewish blood to relate too but we under the New Covenant have the Holy Spirit. We are one in Christ no matter how else we believe.
Everyone is of a different part of the body! We see things in a different light than everyone else. But their is one Spirit that says Jesus IS the Christ, Am I right?
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 20 2007,20:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 21 2007,05:21) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 20 2007,18:48) On the subject of becoming an atheist, I always think of the T-shirt that says “Atheism is the default setting”. I don't believe any child is born christian, or muslim, or communist (although it could be born Jewish, of course). There is no such thing as a “christian baby”, it is a baby of christian parents. The newborn is obviously too young to make up its mind whether or not to believe in the dogmas of christianity. In this way I have remained the non-believer I was at birth.
HmmmInteresting. I'm going to think about this today……
Others – thoughts?
Mandy are we born of the flesh or of the Spirit? Sure our flesh is not even born Jewish but our spirit is Jewish to the highest degree.How so? Do you follow the covenant given to the children of Israel on Mt. Sinai? If you don't you are not Jewish in any sense. I won't claim that for myself why should you? Oh yeah because of the lies that Paul wrote.
Quote We don't have Jewish blood to relate too but we under the New Covenant have the Holy Spirit. We are one in Christ no matter how else we believe. Your 'new covenant' is not the same one found in Jeremiah. That one is to be with the houses of Israel and Judah, not the Gentiles. Plus all people do not know G-d so there is yet more proof yours is not with YHVH G-d. Some other god maybe but not YHVH.
Quote Everyone is of a different part of the body! We see things in a different light than everyone else. But their is one Spirit that says Jesus IS the Christ, Am I right?
Would that spirit be 80 or 90 proof?Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 21 2007,15:12) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 20 2007,20:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 21 2007,05:21) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 20 2007,18:48) On the subject of becoming an atheist, I always think of the T-shirt that says “Atheism is the default setting”. I don't believe any child is born christian, or muslim, or communist (although it could be born Jewish, of course). There is no such thing as a “christian baby”, it is a baby of christian parents. The newborn is obviously too young to make up its mind whether or not to believe in the dogmas of christianity. In this way I have remained the non-believer I was at birth.
HmmmInteresting. I'm going to think about this today……
Others – thoughts?
Mandy are we born of the flesh or of the Spirit? Sure our flesh is not even born Jewish but our spirit is Jewish to the highest degree.How so? Do you follow the covenant given to the children of Israel on Mt. Sinai? If you don't you are not Jewish in any sense. I won't claim that for myself why should you? Oh yeah because of the lies that Paul wrote.
Quote We don't have Jewish blood to relate too but we under the New Covenant have the Holy Spirit. We are one in Christ no matter how else we believe. Your 'new covenant' is not the same one found in Jeremiah. That one is to be with the houses of Israel and Judah, not the Gentiles. Plus all people do not know G-d so there is yet more proof yours is not with YHVH G-d. Some other god maybe but not YHVH.
Quote Everyone is of a different part of the body! We see things in a different light than everyone else. But their is one Spirit that says Jesus IS the Christ, Am I right?
Would that spirit be 80 or 90 proof?
In the Catholic church the “blood of christ” is above the legal limit – unless it really does change into blood, but then why would coeliac priests need gluten-free wafers?I'm a bit confused about your criteria for Jewishness. In my naivety perhaps, I imagined that Jews formed a race or ethnic grouping and thus you could be born and stay atheist and still call yourself Jewish.
Stuart
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 21 2007,15:12) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 20 2007,20:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 21 2007,05:21) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 20 2007,18:48) On the subject of becoming an atheist, I always think of the T-shirt that says “Atheism is the default setting”. I don't believe any child is born christian, or muslim, or communist (although it could be born Jewish, of course). There is no such thing as a “christian baby”, it is a baby of christian parents. The newborn is obviously too young to make up its mind whether or not to believe in the dogmas of christianity. In this way I have remained the non-believer I was at birth.
HmmmInteresting. I'm going to think about this today……
Others – thoughts?
Mandy are we born of the flesh or of the Spirit? Sure our flesh is not even born Jewish but our spirit is Jewish to the highest degree.How so? Do you follow the covenant given to the children of Israel on Mt. Sinai? If you don't you are not Jewish in any sense. I won't claim that for myself why should you? Oh yeah because of the lies that Paul wrote.
Quote We don't have Jewish blood to relate too but we under the New Covenant have the Holy Spirit. We are one in Christ no matter how else we believe. Your 'new covenant' is not the same one found in Jeremiah. That one is to be with the houses of Israel and Judah, not the Gentiles. Plus all people do not know G-d so there is yet more proof yours is not with YHVH G-d. Some other god maybe but not YHVH.
Quote Everyone is of a different part of the body! We see things in a different light than everyone else. But their is one Spirit that says Jesus IS the Christ, Am I right?
Would that spirit be 80 or 90 proof?
100%+ ! Until you are ready to give yourself to GOD then you won't be 100%. You don't know God and therefore the Amazing Peace that HE gives which is a high that no man can produce.But you don't know TOW! Hum there is that rhyme again
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 21 2007,21:10) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 21 2007,15:12) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 20 2007,20:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 21 2007,05:21) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 20 2007,18:48) On the subject of becoming an atheist, I always think of the T-shirt that says “Atheism is the default setting”. I don't believe any child is born christian, or muslim, or communist (although it could be born Jewish, of course). There is no such thing as a “christian baby”, it is a baby of christian parents. The newborn is obviously too young to make up its mind whether or not to believe in the dogmas of christianity. In this way I have remained the non-believer I was at birth.
HmmmInteresting. I'm going to think about this today……
Others – thoughts?
Mandy are we born of the flesh or of the Spirit? Sure our flesh is not even born Jewish but our spirit is Jewish to the highest degree.How so? Do you follow the covenant given to the children of Israel on Mt. Sinai? If you don't you are not Jewish in any sense. I won't claim that for myself why should you? Oh yeah because of the lies that Paul wrote.
Quote We don't have Jewish blood to relate too but we under the New Covenant have the Holy Spirit. We are one in Christ no matter how else we believe. Your 'new covenant' is not the same one found in Jeremiah. That one is to be with the houses of Israel and Judah, not the Gentiles. Plus all people do not know G-d so there is yet more proof yours is not with YHVH G-d. Some other god maybe but not YHVH.
Quote Everyone is of a different part of the body! We see things in a different light than everyone else. But their is one Spirit that says Jesus IS the Christ, Am I right?
Would that spirit be 80 or 90 proof?
In the Catholic church the “blood of christ” is above the legal limit – unless it really does change into blood, but then why would coeliac priests need gluten-free wafers?I'm a bit confused about your criteria for Jewishness. In my naivety perhaps, I imagined that Jews formed a race or ethnic grouping and thus you could be born and stay atheist and still call yourself Jewish.
Stuart
Spiritual, Stu “SPIRITUAL”. Who do you think you are a JEW? The OLD is physical. Physical offerings, physical rules. Ever since Pentecost when God gave the world (to those who wanted it) HIS SPIRIT we have been under a New Covenant….a Spiritual covenant.
The Catholic church (the Roman universal church) is like you & Tow, they need “physical” repressentation.If I'm not mistaken the Jews (Israel) did not want God as their King they wanted a physical repressentation. To those who are real Catholics (and not just on Christmas and Easter) their high priest is the Pope. Indeed the Pope is “Jesus on Earth” to real Catholics.
Those who have God's Spirit don't need a physical “thing” to look at, no statues, no costumes, because God's Spirit bears witness with our spirit that God IS Creator.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 21 2007,06:22) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 21 2007,15:12)
Would that spirit be 80 or 90 proof? 100%+ ! Until you are ready to give yourself to GOD then you won't be 100%. You don't know God and therefore the Amazing Peace that HE gives which is a high that no man can produce.But you don't know TOW! Hum there is that rhyme again
I don't know YOUR god.Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder {Jesus},
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.I do however know my G-d, the G-d of all flesh, YHVH.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 22 2007,00:12) Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 21 2007,06:22) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 21 2007,15:12)
Would that spirit be 80 or 90 proof? 100%+ ! Until you are ready to give yourself to GOD then you won't be 100%. You don't know God and therefore the Amazing Peace that HE gives which is a high that no man can produce.But you don't know TOW! Hum there is that rhyme again
I don't know YOUR god.Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder {Jesus},
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.I do however know my G-d, the G-d of all flesh, YHVH.
Who believes Jesus is God?Why is it you can't say G O D but you can say YHVH?
You are correct you don't know My God but you neither know your G_D. You know rules and offerings. The slaughter of animals, being sprinkled with their blood………Ah yeah that will save you!
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 22 2007,00:12) Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Jesus never encouraged this!Reading the above, especially Kenrch's posts, prompts me to ask whether the best faith is the least questioning kind. I assume that no-one of true christian faith can question the existence of god. Can you ask serious and fundamental questions about how the universe works, even questioning everything you hold dear, or does this require you to suspend faith for a while?
Do people here who have a literal Genesis belief reopen the case for their faith every time a new (if you like, transitional) fossil species is found? Is it a living faith, or was it locked in place in a particular year in history?
Stuart
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
2Jo 1:11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.————–
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,19:15) Can you ask serious and fundamental questions about how the universe works, even questioning everything you hold dear, or does this require you to suspend faith for a while?
I'm pretty tired, but I'll give this a shot.To question one's faith is a no-no if you are a church goer. Especially if you are in ministry in that church. I speak from personal experience on this one. I was knee-deep in ministry (leading worship, teaching classes, youth counseling and the list goes on and on). When I openly confessed to not believing in the Trinity anymore…….I was out. Oh, I could attend the church if I wanted to but as for ministry – ah, no way! So, OK, I left church. One of the best things I've done in a long time.
Faith is another word for HOPE. We can't see God – we hope he is there. We can't see God – we have faith and assurance (hope) that he is there. Without this, we are told in scripture, it is impossible to please God. So you ask, what if he is not there?
Does pondering the universe mean we have to suspend our hope for a while? Does pondering if God really even exists mean we have to suspend our hope that he does? The answer is yes. Who would want to give up hope? To be hopeless……. now that would be a sorry state.
Without hope, what do you have?
Without faith that you have what you hope for, what do you have?
I hope God is real. I have assurance that what I hope for is real and mine. I have faith.
Goodnight and Happy Thanksgiving,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 22 2007,19:32) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 22 2007,19:15) Can you ask serious and fundamental questions about how the universe works, even questioning everything you hold dear, or does this require you to suspend faith for a while?
I'm pretty tired, but I'll give this a shot.To question one's faith is a no-no if you are a church goer. Especially if you are in ministry in that church. I speak from personal experience on this one. I was knee-deep in ministry (leading worship, teaching classes, youth counseling and the list goes on and on). When I openly confessed to not believing in the Trinity anymore…….I was out. Oh, I could attend the church if I wanted to but as for ministry – ah, no way! So, OK, I left church. One of the best things I've done in a long time.
Faith is another word for HOPE. We can't see God – we hope he is there. We can't see God – we have faith and assurance (hope) that he is there. Without this, we are told in scripture, it is impossible to please God. So you ask, what if he is not there?
Does pondering the universe mean we have to suspend our hope for a while? Does pondering if God really even exists mean we have to suspend our hope that he does? The answer is yes. Who would want to give up hope? To be hopeless……. now that would be a sorry state.
Without hope, what do you have?
Without faith that you have what you hope for, what do you have?
I hope God is real. I have assurance that what I hope for is real and mine. I have faith.
Goodnight and Happy Thanksgiving,
Mandy
Mandy You did not read my Post or you do not agree with these scriptures. Which is it, will you tell me?Peace and Love Irene
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