The Muslim Fight

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right?

bod

you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect

but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you ,
you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth,

Pierre

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,05:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right? bod you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you , you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth, Pierre

Are you saying that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph is in Hell?

[Stu]

I love it when religionists make their Imaginary Friends fight.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 19 2012,06:35)

I love it when religionists make their Imaginary Friends fight. Stuart

Actually this is no more imaginary than a math problem where all the equations are very scientific.

You do believe in the process of logic and science right Stu?

Where in science are experiments only legitimate based on actual observations?

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,12:33)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,05:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right? bod you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you , you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth, Pierre Are you saying that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph is in Hell?

bod

even wen I tell you the answer ,you still do not see it ,

I never say or imply what you wish me to say ,and so be at your level of lies,

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph are either with Christ in heaven or be soon resurrected ,those are righteous men ,NOT LIKE YOUR FALSE PROPHET A MURDERER,

Pierre

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,09:28)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,05:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right? bod you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you , you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth, Pierre Are you saying that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph is in Hell? bod even wen I tell you the answer ,you still do not see it , I never say or imply what you wish me to say ,and so be at your level of lies, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph are either with Christ in heaven or be soon resurrected ,those are righteous men ,NOT LIKE YOUR FALSE PROPHET A MURDERER, Pierre

So you mean they got to go to heaven without going through Jesus Christ? How is that possible they had never met him did they?

Are you saying if a person is righteous they do not need to accept Christ as their personal saviour?

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,17:47)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,05:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right? bod you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you , you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth, Pierre Are you saying that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph is in Hell? bod even wen I tell you the answer ,you still do not see it , I never say or imply what you wish me to say ,and so be at your level of lies, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph are either with Christ in heaven or be soon resurrected ,those are righteous men ,NOT LIKE YOUR FALSE PROPHET A MURDERER, Pierre So you mean they got to go to heaven without going through Jesus Christ? How is that possible they had never met him did they? Are you saying if a person is righteous they do not need to accept Christ as their personal saviour?

bod

it is written in scriptures why that is so ,

but you are only interested in the Koran,right

Pierre

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,11:08)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,17:47) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,05:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right? bod you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you , you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth, Pierre Are you saying that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph is in Hell? bod even wen I tell you the answer ,you still do not see it , I never say or imply what you wish me to say ,and so be at your level of lies, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph are either with Christ in heaven or be soon resurrected ,those are righteous men ,NOT LIKE YOUR FALSE PROPHET A MURDERER, Pierre So you mean they got to go to heaven without going through Jesus Christ? How is that possible they had never met him did they? Are you saying if a person is righteous they do not need to accept Christ as their personal saviour? bod it is written in scriptures why that is so , but you are only interested in the Koran,right Pierre

No it's not written that way, do you admit that Abraham, Isaac, David, Moses …etc will not go to hell although they never met Jesus?

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,18:34)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,11:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,17:47) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,05:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right? bod you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you , you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth, Pierre Are you saying that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph is in Hell? bod even wen I tell you the answer ,you still do not see it , I never say or imply what you wish me to say ,and so be at your level of lies, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph are either with Christ in heaven or be soon resurrected ,those are righteous men ,NOT LIKE YOUR FALSE PROPHET A MURDERER, Pierre So you mean they got to go to heaven without going through Jesus Christ? How is that possible they had never met him did they? Are you saying if a person is righteous they do not need to accept Christ as their personal saviour? bod it is written in scriptures why that is so , but you are only interested in the Koran,right Pierre No it's not written that way, do you admit that Abraham, Isaac, David, Moses …etc will not go to hell although they never met Jesus?

bod

hell in scriptures mean the hades or the grave were we all go ,

Pierre

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,12:02)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,18:34) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,11:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,17:47) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,05:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right? bod you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you , you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth, Pierre Are you saying that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph is in Hell? bod even wen I tell you the answer ,you still do not see it , I never say or imply what you wish me to say ,and so be at your level of lies, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph are either with Christ in heaven or be soon resurrected ,those are righteous men ,NOT LIKE YOUR FALSE PROPHET A MURDERER, Pierre So you mean they got to go to heaven without going through Jesus Christ? How is that possible they had never met him did they? Are you saying if a person is righteous they do not need to accept Christ as their personal saviour? bod it is written in scriptures why that is so , but you are only interested in the Koran,right Pierre No it's not written that way, do you admit that Abraham, Isaac, David, Moses …etc will not go to hell although they never met Jesus? bod hell in scriptures mean the hades or the grave were we all go , Pierre

Were these guys saved? Did they get to the Father without Jesus. The scriptures say that God was Abraham's friend is that true even though Abraham didn't go through Jesus Christ?

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,19:24)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,12:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,18:34) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,11:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,17:47) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,09:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,12:33) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2012,05:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,11:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right? bod you never will understand the truth of Gods word, Abraham did,but not Muhammad,and so your prophet left you all in the hands of the devil,false,deceit,lies,ect but you will go for that because the truth is not part of you , you feel better in a corrupt religion than in truth, Pierre Are you saying that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph is in Hell? bod even wen I tell you the answer ,you still do not see it , I never say or imply what you wish me to say ,and so be at your level of lies, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph are either with Christ in heaven or be soon resurrected ,those are righteous men ,NOT LIKE YOUR FALSE PROPHET A MURDERER, Pierre So you mean they got to go to heaven without going through Jesus Christ? How is that possible they had never met him did they? Are you saying if a person is righteous they do not need to accept Christ as their personal saviour? bod it is written in scriptures why that is so , but you are only interested in the Koran,right Pierre No it's not written that way, do you admit that Abraham, Isaac, David, Moses …etc will not go to hell although they never met Jesus? bod hell in scriptures mean the hades or the grave were we all go , Pierre Were these guys saved? Did they get to the Father without Jesus. The scriptures say that God was Abraham's friend is that true even though Abraham didn't go through Jesus Christ?

Bod

Do you think that Muhammad was a friend of the God of Abraham?

Pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:23)

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 17 2012,20:35) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 17 2012,08:26) no other name under the heaven Why not believe in GOD IN HEAVEN for Salvation but if you must believe in a name UNDER the heaven then look to Jesus for salvation no problem but don't look down on those who LOOK UP TO GOD DIRECTLY in HEAVEN for SALVATION because GOD SAVES whom HE PLEASES If Jesus is your Teacher, then Jesus leads you, and no-one else.   The most lost and humble person – even someone outcasted from a forum – who is given the title of a 'Skeptic' could actually be the most saved one out of all of the others who think that they know it all. I personally believe it is how you treat others, and the sign of a true believer is this – that they have love within their heart.  Love which can be felt even if in a situation where in the past you would feel anger.  I believe that this is the sign that you are on the right path, or heading the right way, or have the Spirit in you. I know the difference in being lost and being saved, and being on the right path.  The right path has power in it, and has no fear. I personally believe that if you don't have love, you don't know God.  I don't mean the kind of love where you just say it as words, or it is used as a tactic.  Love that is true is felt in the area of the front of your chest as a burning if it is from God. And all of this is in the Bible – in Jesus' own words. Hi BD, What do you mean by “the most saved”? B,shem YHVH

BD?

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 19 2012,04:09)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2012,16:43) bod Quote Exactly it is “ALLAH” HE is THE MOST HIGH creator of the heavens and earthyou call Him Jehovah others say Yahweh still others say Alaha or Elohim but you are Muslim and the God Yahweh is the God of the Jews that open through his son the door for salvation ,there is only one way to salvation , there is no salvation trough Islam there is only enslavement to that false religion,does Allah has a SON ???NO ,so they are not the same god sorry but Islam is a false religion with no hope, Pierre So everyone before Jesus came is doomed to Hell? Is Abraham, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isaac all going to hell? According to you ot must be true because their was no Jesus no door and if he is the only way there was no way before him, right?

Hi BD,

Hell means “grave”.
Drop the 'book of fraud', it is
only confusing you more and more!

B'shem
YHVH

[TimothyVI]

The bible says no.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.

1 Tim. 6:16 Whom no man hath seen nor can see.

Vs bible says yes.

Genesis 32:30 Jacob said, “I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

Exo 33:11 “And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.”

Tim

[Proclaimer]

Even Moses who saw God, still saw the Angel of God and not God himself. He saw an image.

Exodus 3:2
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

God is indeed invisible and no one can see him. He is also an eternal spirit and how can anyone see an eternal anything if they are finite. Can anyone see the whole universe? That is probably finite too.

To see God face to face is to see the following:

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

That is why Christ is called the image of the invisible God.

God can even be seen (in a lesser degree) through his own creation.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2012,13:55)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2012,21:23) Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 17 2012,20:35) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 17 2012,08:26) no other name under the heaven Why not believe in GOD IN HEAVEN for Salvation but if you must believe in a name UNDER the heaven then look to Jesus for salvation no problem but don't look down on those who LOOK UP TO GOD DIRECTLY in HEAVEN for SALVATION because GOD SAVES whom HE PLEASES If Jesus is your Teacher, then Jesus leads you, and no-one else.   The most lost and humble person – even someone outcasted from a forum – who is given the title of a 'Skeptic' could actually be the most saved one out of all of the others who think that they know it all. I personally believe it is how you treat others, and the sign of a true believer is this – that they have love within their heart.  Love which can be felt even if in a situation where in the past you would feel anger.  I believe that this is the sign that you are on the right path, or heading the right way, or have the Spirit in you. I know the difference in being lost and being saved, and being on the right path.  The right path has power in it, and has no fear. I personally believe that if you don't have love, you don't know God.  I don't mean the kind of love where you just say it as words, or it is used as a tactic.  Love that is true is felt in the area of the front of your chest as a burning if it is from God. And all of this is in the Bible – in Jesus' own words. Hi BD, What do you mean by “the most saved”? B,shem YHVH BD?

I didn't write that Shimmer did

[bodhitharta]

That's right you don't believe in hell.

The video you posted is no different than what are seen as contradictions in the Bible and seeming contradictions are fine to me they prove truth and I have always said this

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 19 2012,22:00)

Even Moses who saw God, still saw the Angel of God and not God himself. He saw an image. Exodus 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. Acts 7:30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. God is indeed invisible and no one can see him. He is also an eternal spirit and how can anyone see an eternal anything if they are finite. Can anyone see the whole universe? That is probably finite too. To see God face to face is to see the following: 2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. That is why Christ is called the image of the invisible God. God can even be seen (in a lesser degree) through his own creation. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

T8

Tim didn't ask for the explanation he pointed out the fact that the Bible is compatible to the Quran in what it is saying or appears to be contradicting will you also stick up for the Quran and explain?

This is what I am talking about Tim is being honest and debating without mischief but the response is always some sort of cover up from you guys. Didn't ED know that the bible has these same similar “contradictions” so if you explain one book you are explaining both if they pertain to the same stories.

[Proclaimer]

No cover up Bod.

Surely I am allowed to clear up any misconceptions regarding scripture Bod? I was pointing to the fact that when people say they saw God face to face, they saw his image. That is what the bible shows clearly.

If I saw Michael the Archangel, I might say that I saw God as surely he is an image of God too.

Seeing God's glory is the only way you can actually see God. Remember that sight is not always what you think. There is foresight, insight, hindsight, and sight that is live. All sight is really taking place in the brain and is an understanding. To say that you see God is not to be taken as God having a body and you can see and touch. God is seen even through his own creation.

I am reminding you guys that what you think is contradiction is not at all. Even the verses that say that Moses saw God, explain in the same breath that Moses saw the Angel of the Lord.

No contradiction Bod, that is my point. It is not dishonest to point out this, rather it is an honest thing to do because what I say is a fact and no hiding of anything is necessary.

And you try and get us to believe in your book and prophet, and the while go around saying that the bible contradicts and Jesus is not the son of God, and he didn't die for our sins.

I mean if you really think that you can convert myself from the truth of scripture by trying to make show similarities with the Koran and the Bible and then say that the Bible unreasonable or contradictory, then your true motive is exposed.

I think you will have better luck buying a lotto ticket than trying to coax me to follow and accept your line of reasoning.

[terraricca]

T8

Bod,will keep on to try ,he is looking for someone like him that does not looking for truth but for enslavement to a religion maniac with a book ,

Pierre

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