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LU,
WJ will never WANT to understand. God contains ALL THINGS so “HIS” Christ who is WITHIN HIM cannot ever BE EQUAL to HIM (God) that Contains HIM (Jesus).
Jesus can be given ALL THINGS within God (Does this include himself – of course NOT: Does the Book of ALL Books Contain the Book of ALL Books?)
The Scriptures even says so itself: 1 Cor 15:27:
“For He (God) hath put all things under his (Jesus') feet. But when he (God) saith all things are put under him (Jesus), it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Jesus).”And further, what God has put under Jesus' feet is his (Jesus') ONLY until he completes the task that has been assigned him.
He that gives it can also take back (if it where to come to that but it won't because Jesus is the perfect executor) so, the Rulership is never 'truly' Jesus' as a finality.
Scripture is repeated in part in different ways to consolidate the 'hidden meaning': In the book of Esther, the king (=God) gives his Seal (signifying Rulership) to his overseer (=Jesus). Is that seal the final possession of the overseer? Of course not!
When the overseer misuses the king's(!!) seal, the overseer is removed from his post and the seal taken back by the king And given to another who was found to be more worthy… until the king desires it back or whatever task was set to the overseer is completed.If a one strains at a gnat to understand the parallels here then what use is there in a discussion – that one clearly has a comprehension problem that they clearly have no intention of addressing!
Jesus and the apostles use these parallels over and over to bring particular messages to the understanding of others as those others would be have full knowledge of the original (or could look it up to test the quote)
The problem with some people though is that they look to too much of the original and then makes claims against or in addition to that which was meant.
Clearly… Jesus is not misusing Gods kingdom – as the overseer did. The parallel actually 'Starts' when the king gives the seal to 'the one who was found worthy'.
TT, tried to say that Jonah and the great Fish was a full parallel to Jesus in the Sheol. But what did happen to Jonah?
Jonah was not DEAD in the great Fish : Jesus was DEAD in the grave
Jonah cried out to god to save him : Jesus did not cry out from the grave (He gave up his spirit to his father and 'breathed his last”)
God rescued Jonah by who instructing the Fish to spit Jonah out : Jesus was brought back to life by God's Holy Spirit
Jonah was in the fish for three day and three nights : Jesus was in the grave for three days (and nights??)
Jonah being in the Fish was Punishment for disobeying God : Jesus was in the grave for OBEYING GodHow much of the parallel do we take – read with discernment and a Holy Spirited heart and mind and you will see.
Going back to the King and his Seal – Here is something to contemplate:
Could the Analogy go further – back: Could “He who became Satan” have been the original Son of God but when he sinned God “Begot another as his Son”
Is Satan not said to have been 'the Anointed Cherub' (Ezekiel 28:14) – certainly that was before his sinning – What is the meaning of being anointed (of God)?
Saul was the original (first) King of Israel Anointed of God but he sinned and another who was found worthy was appointed and anointed in his stead and called “Begotten Son”.
Didn't Abraham Anoint Isaac as his “Begotten Son” in place of his 'first Son' Ishmael? And Esau sinned by selling his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of stew.Only a [dangerous] theory but interesting none the less.
Keith,
Your long exposee of why Jesus said what he said and why the Jews reacted the way they did IS MUCH SIMPLER also.
The Jews were SO STRICT that they were 'strangling' themselves with the laws that said that noone should work on the Sabbath.
Jesus also pointed out their hypocrasy because despite what they said in words they were prepared to do that which they classed as work!
“The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” – this is not exclusive to jesus – It means that MAN controls the Sabbath – To do good on – Not the Sabbath control Man and tell (?) Man what he can and can't do.The Sabbath was instituted mainly to give the slaves a rest day . While in initial slavery they did not have a single day of rest. God is always proving himself – He rested one day – is it coincidence! No – he knew…
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,13:49)
Oh Keith,
You might not see it proven in scriptures to satisfy the one who has been blinded (I'm not implying anyone here), but it certainly can be backed by scriptures.
KathiReally? Where? Just give me ONE scripture that “unambiguously” is proof that Jesus the Word that was with God and was God had a biggining!
Just “One” scripture Kathi!
Blessings WJ
JA said:
Quote He that gives it can also take back (if it where to come to that but it won't because Jesus is the perfect executor) so, the Rulership is never 'truly' Jesus' as a finality.
TO ALL:How utterly misguided and silly! God can take the kingdom back from Jesus no more than He can break a covenant. The only legal way God could take the kingdom back is if Jesus would sin. Since Jesus will never sin God cannot legally take back the kingdom. But Jesus can give it back of His own volition.
God made a covenant with Israel and they disobeyed. Their disobedience gave God the legal right to take the kingdom from them which He did. Jesus said, “The kingdom shall be taken from you and given to a nation bearing fruits” (Matthew 21).
Now Jesus Himself is the Head over that nation that bears fruits. So if Christ does not sin, then the only legal way the Father can get the kingdom from Him is if Jesus willingly gives it up.
JA does not understand the first thing about God's covenant dealings with men. He is totally ignorant on the subject.
And, oh, let's not forget that if the Father steals back the kingdom from our Head, then He steals it back from us too. JA probably hasn't thought of this. This is because he is not in our league for his comments reflect his puny view of the fatherhood of God.
thinker
Hi TT,
You think any rules contain our God?
You even think He could be accused?
Wake up and seek the Father, our God.Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,13:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2010,04:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,12:38) Kathi said: Quote If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it Then why did Jesus ride into Jerusalem as Israel's King as prophecy foretold?
thinker
Thinker,
Jesus is a king but not a king who is the source of everything in existence like the Father. Jesus will never be the king who was the source of everything in existence.
Kathi,Jesus was THE King of Israel. And He is indeed the source of everything like His own Father:
“and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” Hebrews 5:9
and,
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” John 5:26
I once thought that this was speaking about Christ's pre-existence. But I have changed my mind. The word “to have” is the Greek “scheo” which means “to hold.”
“For as the Father holds life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to hold life in Himself.”
Jesus “holds” life in Himself and He may give that life to men. He is therefore the source of eternal life.
“In Him was life….” (John 1:4)
thinker
Thinker,
The Son wasn't the source of eternal life…He was given it to give to others from His Father. The Father is the source. You can't be the source of something if you were given it in the first place.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2010,07:02) Hi TT,
You think any rules contain our God?
You even think He could be accused?
Wake up and seek the Father, our God.
Nick,Do you know what an “oath” is? Did God not make oaths to men and to Christ in particular?
Are not oaths BINDING?
thinker
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,14:33) “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” – this is not exclusive to jesus – It means that MAN controls the Sabbath – To do good on – Not the Sabbath control Man and tell (?) Man what he can and can't do.
JAWould you like to show me a scripture that says that man is Lord of the Sabbath?
The Sabbath was created for man that he might have rest. But it was a “law” that ruled over man and not man over it!
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because he created it for one, and two he is Lord over it! That is why he could claim to “work the works” of God on it! Only God could work on the Sabbath!
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,15:07) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,13:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2010,04:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,12:38) Kathi said: Quote If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it Then why did Jesus ride into Jerusalem as Israel's King as prophecy foretold?
thinker
Thinker,
Jesus is a king but not a king who is the source of everything in existence like the Father. Jesus will never be the king who was the source of everything in existence.
Kathi,Jesus was THE King of Israel. And He is indeed the source of everything like His own Father:
“and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” Hebrews 5:9
and,
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” John 5:26
I once thought that this was speaking about Christ's pre-existence. But I have changed my mind. The word “to have” is the Greek “scheo” which means “to hold.”
“For as the Father holds life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to hold life in Himself.”
Jesus “holds” life in Himself and He may give that life to men. He is therefore the source of eternal life.
“In Him was life….” (John 1:4)
thinker
Thinker,
The Son wasn't the source of eternal life…He was given it to give to others from His Father. The Father is the source. You can't be the source of something if you were given it in the first place.
KathiIf all things were made by and through Jesus then that indeed makes him the source of all things!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2010,07:07) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,13:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2010,04:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,12:38) Kathi said: Quote If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it Then why did Jesus ride into Jerusalem as Israel's King as prophecy foretold?
thinker
Thinker,
Jesus is a king but not a king who is the source of everything in existence like the Father. Jesus will never be the king who was the source of everything in existence.
Kathi,Jesus was THE King of Israel. And He is indeed the source of everything like His own Father:
“and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” Hebrews 5:9
and,
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” John 5:26
I once thought that this was speaking about Christ's pre-existence. But I have changed my mind. The word “to have” is the Greek “scheo” which means “to hold.”
“For as the Father holds life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to hold life in Himself.”
Jesus “holds” life in Himself and He may give that life to men. He is therefore the source of eternal life.
“In Him was life….” (John 1:4)
thinker
Thinker,
The Son wasn't the source of eternal life…He was given it to give to others from His Father. The Father is the source. You can't be the source of something if you were given it in the first place.
“For AS the Father holds life IN HIMSELF, so Has He given to the Son to hold life IN HIMSELF.”There is no equivocation. The expression “in Himself” are equal terms in reference to the Father and the Son.
In the new covenant age Jesus is the source of all things. Whatever was true before this does not apply today.
thinker
Hi TT,
Indeed God gave for Jesus to be the fountain for us of His Spirit.[jn7]
That life is in the Son.[1Jn5]
Come to himQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,07:20) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,15:07) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,13:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2010,04:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,12:38) Kathi said: Quote If some young man said that he was the son of the king, he would be making himself out to be equal to royalty, but he would not be saying that he was equal to the king. The son and the king are both equal to being royalty, but not equally king. Get it Then why did Jesus ride into Jerusalem as Israel's King as prophecy foretold?
thinker
Thinker,
Jesus is a king but not a king who is the source of everything in existence like the Father. Jesus will never be the king who was the source of everything in existence.
Kathi,Jesus was THE King of Israel. And He is indeed the source of everything like His own Father:
“and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” Hebrews 5:9
and,
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” John 5:26
I once thought that this was speaking about Christ's pre-existence. But I have changed my mind. The word “to have” is the Greek “scheo” which means “to hold.”
“For as the Father holds life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to hold life in Himself.”
Jesus “holds” life in Himself and He may give that life to men. He is therefore the source of eternal life.
“In Him was life….” (John 1:4)
thinker
Thinker,
The Son wasn't the source of eternal life…He was given it to give to others from His Father. The Father is the source. You can't be the source of something if you were given it in the first place.
KathiIf all things were made by and through Jesus then that indeed makes him the source of all things!
Blessings WJ
Keith,Yes indeed! The sun is the source of heat and light through its beams. The sun is useless and no source at all unless it radiates through its beams.
Jesus is the RADIANCE of God's glory (Hebrews 1)!
thinker
TT, you are so sad.
The life that God has within him is through the Holy Spirit.
Even if he gives that to the Son, he has not 'relinquished' the Holy Spirit, just given it over for the use by the Son. It still 'belongs to God – it is still God's Holy Spirit and for that reason God attributes the accomplishments of the Son to himself (like: “I, God, saves because the Son saves because that which is mine saves”)
Try to be “like God” and you will see.
Set up your own company and appoint overseers and then assign them tasks. Give them all the means from within YOUR company so they can accomplish theirs tasks.
Are they equal to you because they have something YOU gave them for their use until they do what you asked them to do?
Does the things they accomplish Glorify YOU or THEM?
To whom is the End result of the good accomplishment attributed, You – or them?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,14:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2010,13:49)
Oh Keith,
You might not see it proven in scriptures to satisfy the one who has been blinded (I'm not implying anyone here), but it certainly can be backed by scriptures.
KathiReally? Where? Just give me ONE scripture that “unambiguously” is proof that Jesus the Word that was with God and was God had a biggining!
Just “One” scripture Kathi!
Blessings WJ
Keith,
Here, you can see that the Lord is a Son and that Son was in the beginning and His years will never come to an end. A being is not a son unless they had a beginning and they came from another of the same kind. Note that the Son did this. It doesn't say that He was just an “it” or the word when he did this. He is being referred to as the person that was in the beginning yet that person is a son. Children understand that son's come from someone else and are like the someone else but they are not the one that they are from.Quote Hebrews 1:8 but of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.”
1:10 And,
“You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord,
and the heavens are the works of your hands.
1:11 They will perish, but you continue.
And they will all grow old like a garment,
1:12 and like a robe you will fold them up
and like a garment they will be changed,
but you are the same and your years will never run out.”
Remember that the verbs in v. 10 are in the active voice and the subject of the passage is “the Son.”
Kathi
Hi TT,
The Sun gives heat and light.
Without the sun there would be no sunbeams.
But the sunbeams are not the sun but come from the sun.Did you think the Son was his Father?
TT,
you are sooo bad….”Yes indeed! The sun is the source of heat and light through its beams. The sun is useless and no source at all unless it radiates through its beams.”
So God is “Useless” with out his Son? – be careful – do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God – you already have two strikes (Three strikes and you are out!)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2010,07:17) Hi TT,
Are you the appointed judge of the behaviours of Almighty God?
God tells us what He is like. He says that He keeps His oaths.Do not men behave like God when they keep their oaths? Do we not say that such men are “godly” (God-like)?
God cannot take the kingdom from Jesus if He does not sin. The only way that God can get the kingdom back is if Jesus yields it to the Father of His own volition.
The expression “father” in reference to God does not mean “despot.” As “father” God is a covenant keeper.
Your view of the fatherhood of God is puny like JA's.
thinker
Nick, Its no good – TT is so far gone he is like drunk man, inebriated beyond sentient responsibility.
Even his co-trini, WJ, despairs at him!TT, “God cannot take the kingdom from Jesus if He does not sin. The only way that God can get the kingdom back is if Jesus yields it to the Father of His own volition.”
How much have you drunk today?
WJ, please come and remove your drunk pal before he does even more damage to himself by saying even more profane things………….
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