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WJ
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Look in the mirror. Do you believe in Jesus death, burial and resurrection and the return of Christ?
So do the Catholics, so that must mean you are one to, right?
WJ
what you say is true ,so they say that they believe ,but it is by good deeds applied with true motifs
sure only God can see the heart but by the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks,
and i am not deaf.
even Satan will change in an angel of light.
if you got a rotten boat keep new paint over the rust will not improve its structure,it will only covered it up
and become a trap for the passengers,innocent or others.Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 15 2010,19:16) CA and WJ, 
Please take it to the other thread!
thinker
JackAgreed!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2010,12:28) Hi Kathi and all, Kathi, you keep referring to Thomas calling Jesus “my God”. And we always see reference to Hebrews 1:8, where he is called God by God. But is that it? After reading the entire Bible verse for verse, that's what it comes down to for you?
First of all, that Jesus would be called God was foretold by God in Isaiah 700 years before it happened.
Second, God also called prophets gods.
Angels were called gods in Thomas' lifetime, so could Thomas have been saying Jesus was truly “from heaven” because he had now seen in the flesh that he returned from the grave, instead of saying he was “God”?
If the whole of Scripture teaches one true God (and that one is Jehovah, not Jesus or a combo of two or three), but there are two or three verses that could be read this way or that, wouldn't it be wiser to swing the way that supports the rest of the Bible?
[/QUOTE]
Hi Kathi,
I'm waiting for your answer on my previous post. Doesn't it make sense that if we were to worship Jesus as God, it would be abundantly clear in the Scriptures?
Not a coulple of “maybe it could be read that way” Scriptures.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2010,19:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2010,12:28) Hi Kathi and all, Kathi, you keep referring to Thomas calling Jesus “my God”. And we always see reference to Hebrews 1:8, where he is called God by God. But is that it? After reading the entire Bible verse for verse, that's what it comes down to for you?
First of all, that Jesus would be called God was foretold by God in Isaiah 700 years before it happened.
Second, God also called prophets gods.
Angels were called gods in Thomas' lifetime, so could Thomas have been saying Jesus was truly “from heaven” because he had now seen in the flesh that he returned from the grave, instead of saying he was “God”?
If the whole of Scripture teaches one true God (and that one is Jehovah, not Jesus or a combo of two or three), but there are two or three verses that could be read this way or that, wouldn't it be wiser to swing the way that supports the rest of the Bible?
[/QUOTE]
Hi Kathi,
I'm waiting for your answer on my previous post. Doesn't it make sense that if we were to worship Jesus as God, it would be abundantly clear in the Scriptures?
Not a coulple of “maybe it could be read that way” Scriptures.
Hi Mike,
Sorry to keep you waiting. I had to catch my daughter up in her school work today since she was sick last week.I was thinking about your questions and I'll attempt to take them one by one.
Quote Kathi, you keep referring to Thomas calling Jesus “my God”. And we always see reference to Hebrews 1:8, where he is called God by God. But is that it? After reading the entire Bible verse for verse, that's what it comes down to for you? No, Mike that is not all that I see in the Bible. I have shown several instances when Jesus received worship. There are several verses that He is referred to as God.
Quote First of all, that Jesus would be called God was foretold by God in Isaiah 700 years before it happened. So? Just a prophetic word that came to fulfillment. That just makes it more important rather than less important.
Quote Second, God also called prophets gods. Do you equate Jesus with the prophets or the angels?
Did he ever say that any other so-called “god” had a divine nature like his, or that they created all things in heaven and on earth, or that they would have an eternal throne, or that they had all things that the Father had, or they had all authority in heaven and on earth, or authority to forgive sins, or that their death was to be the propitiation for all sin, or they came forth from the Father, or that the angels were to worship them, or did the prophets raise from the dead, etc?
Do you get my point? The Son is far superior than any so-called gods.
Quote Angels were called gods in Thomas' lifetime, so could Thomas have been saying Jesus was truly “from heaven” because he had now seen in the flesh that he returned from the grave, instead of saying he was “God”? No, I strongly doubt it. I think Thomas was having an ah-ha moment when he finally got that Jesus was not only Lord, but God as the literal Son of God would have to be. God begat God, Man begat man, dog begat dog, etc.
Quote If the whole of Scripture teaches one true God (and that one is Jehovah, not Jesus or a combo of two or three), but there are two or three verses that could be read this way or that, wouldn't it be wiser to swing the way that supports the rest of the Bible? First of all, God doesn't need to say it twice for it to be true.
He told Adam one time not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…one time and then changed the topic. Well, that was pretty important what God told Adam, it had the potential to separate all of mankind from God, which it ended up doing.
But, again there are more than two or three verses that refer to Jesus as God and several instances that show Jesus receiving worship. I equate the one who is the “ONLY Begotten Son” to the “ONLY Begotten God.”
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NASUI hope that answers your questions, Mike. Thanks for your patience.
Kathi
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 15 2010,09:21) Guys, Regarding Thomas and his statement “My Lord and my God”.
I was searching the Scriptures and praying for the holy Spirit and this came to me:
Jesus had said to Thomas:
John 14:7 “If you have known ME [Lord] then then you have known My Father [God] and from now on you know Him [God the Father] and have seen Him [God the Father]Philip then interjects:
John 14:8:
“Philip said, “Lord [Jesus], show us the Father [God] and that will be enough for us.”Jesus is getting [patiently] exasperated:
John 14:9:
“Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen ME [Lord] has seen the Father [God]. How can you say, 'Show us the Father [God]'?”Jesus quitens down and meekly continues:
John 14:10-11:
“Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.”Now, reas those verses in context very carefully and get a sense of what is going on:
…”If you have seen ME then you have also seen the Father”…Now back to Thomas (Can you see it already?)
Jesus proves himself to Thomas and so, he who doubted teh most is amazed and responds…
“My Lord AND My God”Thomas is addressing BOTH 'Lord' and “God” because Jesus said to him “If you see Me, the Lord, you have seen also the Father, God”.
Someone wrote that Jesus 'Blessed' Thomas for this revelation but read Jesus' response – Where is Thomas being 'Blessed'?
It is the ONES who have not seen Jesus but believe that he has been raised from teh dead who are 'Blessed'.
Thomas is admonished for only believing BECAUSE he has seen and touched.
Hi JustAskin,
I read your comments here and I am glad that you have taken the time to pray and search scriptures on this. I do believe what happened in John 14 is monumental and does lay some more groundwork as to who Jesus is but I disagree with your conclusions.You see, the disciples already believed in God. What they didn't get very well was the Father/Son relationship that Jesus had with God His Father. Jesus was basically telling them that, as the perfect son, He said what His Father told Him to say, He acted in a way that His Father had showed Him to act, and He even was the image of His Father's glory and that if you saw Him (Jesus) you could see His Father too. Kind of like earthly sons could resemble their fathers in word and deed and looks.
So, when Thomas says “My Lord and my God” He is talking about who Jesus is to Him and not because He merely sees the one Jesus speaks of in John 14- the Father, in Jesus. Otherwise He would be more likely to say, “My God and My Father.” Afterall, John 14 was all about seeing the Father. Thomas went from knowing Jesus as Lord to realizing Him as God at that moment. Thomas already knew Jesus as Lord.
My opinion,
KathiHi LU,
So he was copying God and being fully attentive to instructions and not led by God's Spirit?
Can you follow this god?Kathi wrote: “Otherwise He would be more likely to say, “My God and My Father.”
Kathi, do you see what you have written. Why would Thomas call Jesus “God” if they knew who God was(is) and then say call on 'God's Father?
“My God (Jesus) and My Father (God, the Father).” your sentence doesn't make sense. That would make Thomas even less than he already was (A doubter and now also a dual Goddist). since you infer – not state this, the whole of that portion is a pointless argument…“Thomas went from knowing Jesus as Lord to realizing Him as God at that moment. Thomas already knew Jesus as Lord.”
Yes, Thomas went from knowing Jesus as Lord.
He also realized that he was seeing the God ('Father') through Jesus – JUST AS JESUS HAD TOLD HIM (them).This is the whole point of the incident – do you think it was an ACCIDENT that Thomas wasn't there the first time:
“For you Pharoah, I have raised up to mighty power to bring you down also to show that I AM Almighty God and I give to whom I give and take away from whom I take away and I reveal to whom I revela and deny to whom I deny” (My paraphrase)Kathi, WHAT is “A GOD” to you?
To me, there can only be ONE GOD. no If's, no But's – ONE GOD.
A God (The God) is:
– ALL Powerful (Is the SOURCE of ALL THINGS);– Contains ALL things (There is nothing outside of God, all things are within him)
– Is all loving, because all things are his he loves all things – if because of free will, something goes bad, GOd desires that that thing gets corrected and comes back into integrity with his love – at the final, God will have to destroy some part of that which is his like removing a Cancer. Like removing a Cancer, one CANNOT be SENTIMENTAL and feel sorry for parts – ALL cancerous parts MUST be destroyed otherwise it will re-infect the good parts sooner or later (And since there is Eternity to live…!)
– A God (The GOd) desires Worship of himself – worship is the TOTAL devotion and Servitude of all that is within him that he has given sentient life force (Spirit) to, to give offer back that Life Force (Spirit) as a sacrifice, as pious selflessness.
(I wrote before that I gave my Son money to buy sweets. Immediately on purchase, he offers me some of his sweets back.)Having said this, how then do you place Jesus in the same category as 'A GOd'. Jesus is WITHIN his father, within “God”, how then is he also God. What LIFE FORCE does Jesus give to anyone except that it is done through the medium of “GOD's” Holy Spirit force? Do you attribute raising the dead to Jesus' PERSONAL spirit force – “For he has Life in him…” by means of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.
One cannot ahve two masters for one will love one and hate the other. Ok, a bit strong as it wasn't meaning Jesus and God, but it does mean that you will Worship ONE more than the Other – and GOd is a JEALOUS GOD who desire total devotional Worship from his creation.
Did Jesus ever say that – I wonder why – Do you? (I Guess not!)
JA
good quote;trinitarians have to over come ,that there believe in that pagan god is wrong,but what they can not understand i think there are so many of them and from so long,
they easy forget that Satan is opposite to God s will ,and loves to confuse people ,the trinity only benefits Satan,establish a vague god to people is very deceitful ,and he has done a good job,
is influence is also given so people will not chose God s way ,but let themselves guided by the evil will or influence of Satan.I believe that when Thomas saw Jesus he realized that he was seeing the expression of the Father in bodily form (when you've seen me you've seen the Father). After the resurrection Jesus was no longer merely a man (made Him for a little while lower then the angels) but, having all power and authority given to Him by the Father, having the nature of the Father, being the image of the Father, being the only begotten Son of God, called God in scriptures He always points to the Father and is always obedient to Him. Why should I take the pendulum to the opposite extreme from those who would attempt to make Jesus equal to the Father and forsake the divinity clearly stated in scripture. Kathi has not twisted or changed scripture, If Jesus only does what the Father wills then any praise of Jesus is truly praise to what the Father has done. I believe that Jesus allows the Father to relate with man in ways He never could as the Father.
My opinion, Wm
Hi ST,
Does God have a bodily form??
He is invisible.You deny the human vessel Jesus.
Is it wise to deny the Son of our God?ST……….Thomas saw that GOD the FATHER was (IN) Jesus and He acknowledged it when He said My Lord (Jesus) (AND) My GOD, both were present in the vessel or temple of Jesus' Body. It just dawned on Thomas what Jesus was saying all along that the FATHER Was Indeed (IN) HIM. It was the FATHER HIMSELF that Said through Jesus' mouth , “DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND IN THREE DAYS I SHALL RAISE IT UP”, that was GOD the FATHER speaking (FIRST PERSON) through Jesus. Two being were present in Jesus' body One was Jesus, and the other was GOD the FATHER. But in no way does that make Jesus himself a GOD because GOD was (IN) HIM> that is the POINT. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
all
what Thomas sees is what any one of us would have seen if wee would have been there;
what is the real impact on Thomas was the fact that he did could not believe ,
so when Christ came he said;here are my hands here his my side,and that is were he realized that what his brothers in the faith were telling him was the truth,the words he had said Christ tell them to him,with all this he was under pressure realizing what he had done,(i could see it this way;ho my lord ho my god what have i done;)but never intended to call Jesus God the father.Terra, Well supoorted, thanks.
Jesus says in exclamation: “What do you mean 'Show us the Father'? Have I been so long with you [and taught you so much and yet you still do not understand]?”
“Everything I do is by means of THE FATHER, by Spiritual means, by His Holy Spirit”
“You cannot see the Father because you look with human eyes, to the physical being, at the physical body – you ask to see the Father [God] in Bodyily form – you know not what you ask – Would you surrender your life to foolishness?”(No man can see God and live!)
“Look to the Spirit and you will see the Father working in Me – I and the Father are ONE” (Where is Trinity 'Man' called the Holy Spirit in this unity)
“What he tells me to do – I do, What he tells me to say – I say wants me to know – I know.” (Clearly two separate persons – one in perfect subordinate allience with the other – A Worshipper of the other)
“I do nothing apart from him – He is my God and Father” (God AND Father, two aspect of the same entity – not two entities)
Thomas: “Gosh, I see now: The spirits of My Lord AND [of] My God working through the ONE body of My Lord”
Jesus: “Thomas, ONLY because you have seen are you believing!!?!! Blessed are those who have not seen but yet believe”Blessed ar they that believe in the revelations of the Holy Spirit because they will know Truth!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2010,04:38) Hi ST,
Does God have a bodily form??
He is invisible.You deny the human vessel Jesus.
Is it wise to deny the Son of our God?
Nick,Angels took human form at the tomb of Jesus. Are God's creatures greater in power? The Holy Spirit took the bodily form of a dove. So your argument from God's invisibility fails. The Spirit became visible. God has the power to do whatsoever He pleases to do.
He was pleased to become flesh.
thinker
Hi TT,
So what angels can do God must be able to do, and did ?
When will this dreary speculative nonsense end?thinker………..YOU CAN NOT SEE SPIRIT, It is INTELLECT, you can not see intellect, intellect has no form to see it is what makes up our thoughts. JOHN SAID NO ONE HAVE EVER SEEN GOD. IMO
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 16 2010,11:55) I believe that when Thomas saw Jesus he realized that he was seeing the expression of the Father in bodily form (when you've seen me you've seen the Father). After the resurrection Jesus was no longer merely a man (made Him for a little while lower then the angels) but, having all power and authority given to Him by the Father, having the nature of the Father, being the image of the Father, being the only begotten Son of God, called God in scriptures He always points to the Father and is always obedient to Him. Why should I take the pendulum to the opposite extreme from those who would attempt to make Jesus equal to the Father and forsake the divinity clearly stated in scripture. Kathi has not twisted or changed scripture, If Jesus only does what the Father wills then any praise of Jesus is truly praise to what the Father has done. I believe that Jesus allows the Father to relate with man in ways He never could as the Father. My opinion, Wm
Great post Seekingtruth! Amen, amen and amen
It is so simple really!!
Love ya, K
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