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Lightenup,
Look at it this way. You gave me a billion dollars to distribute to the needy. I put my own $100 in the gas tank and drove around to the poorest neighborhoods distributing your money. I took great care to say things like “make sure you know this comes from Lu” and “Lu is greater than I” and “my food is to do the will of Lu” and “I can do nothing by myself, only what Lu tells me to do, because it's her money”. But some people still thought I saved those poor people. I was only the messenger, and no messenger is as great as the one who sent him. And I couldn't have saved one person with my limited means, only through the money you gave me. Who deserves the praise and recognition of saving those poor families?
I know this is a simplified version of God and His Christ. But really, who is the hero. After all, God is the one who loved the world so much that he gave a possession of His so we can be saved. And not to take anything away from Jesus, but there were many people in the Bible who lost their lives trying to spread the word of God, not just Jesus. And to worship Jesus as God acts in direct opposition to God's right to not share His glory and praise with another. Consider 1 Corinthians 15:28, “When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 30 2010,18:10) LU, I maintain my praise to you for desiring to worship the Father and understanding that the Holy Spirit is 'of' the Father, and for this reason 'it' is not include as one to be worshippied, praised, glorified, nor honored.
My pressing you is for the purpose of 'refinement' in terms of what God asks of you – of us.
There is no scriptural support that I can find for mankind to worshipping Jesus.
Even where an instruction 'is' given notice that it is directed solely at the angels:
'…let all the angels worship him'In Rev 4:8-11 we are shown 'He who sits on the throne first being 'praised', 'honored' and 'thanked' by the four living creatures, and whenever they do that, the twenty four elders (these are the exalted of mankind) fall down worship him. This 'worship' is qualified by them when they 'cast their crowns before the throne'.
In Rev 5:8 the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fall down before the Lamb…but they do not Worship him!
So, here no we have seen two different acts of deference:
1 – God and Jesus are both honored, glorified, praised, etc.
2 – God, alone, is Wirshipped
So now we go to Rev 5: 13-14: Even without the 'Him who lives for ever' the scenario still holds true: God and Jesus are praised (vs 13) but only God is Worshppied (vs14).
So, why is it important to make this fine distinction?
Because, if not, there is danger that Jesus becomes the focus of our worship because he was 'closer' to humankind and we 'feel' for his sacrifice and suffering for us.Remember, Jesus' reward from God is far greater than any praise, glory or honor from humankind.
Further, should Jesus accept worship from humankind taking away – Stealing – that which alone belongs to the God, then he would have failed but he does not (`Get thee behind me Satan for it is said 'Though shalt worship the Lord thy God and Him alone'`)
Beware … Satan is crouching at the door waiting to devour the unwary…
JustAskin, Mike Boll, Mandy and all,
JustAskin, you say that God alone is worshipped.Jesus is called “God” in several scriptures and by the Most High God Himself.
So worship God, The Father is God, the Son is God…worship all that is God.
Quote “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. NASB ©
biblegateway Tit 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,NASB ©
biblegateway Joh 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Col 2:9
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form,Col 1:19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the SonNET © Hebrews 1:8
but of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.Was God confused when He called His Son “God?”
Is there a “theme” here in the above scriptures that applies deity to the Son as well?I do believe that it is better to get your direction towards whether you are to worship the Son along with the Father, by asking our Most High God directly instead of a message board . Do you think He will be faithful to guide you here? You can trust Him. He knows your heart and He loves you.
Kathi
hi all
you only worship God so also said Christ if you love Christ you would obey to what he said,
God spirit can not be broken.there are addition and retraction in the bible by malicious people over the century's ,but if you walk by the spirit of Christ you will avoid those pit falls
Quote (mikeboll @ Jan. 31 2010,10:54) Lightenup, Look at it this way. You gave me a billion dollars to distribute to the needy. I put my own $100 in the gas tank and drove around to the poorest neighborhoods distributing your money. I took great care to say things like “make sure you know this comes from Lu” and “Lu is greater than I” and “my food is to do the will of Lu” and “I can do nothing by myself, only what Lu tells me to do, because it's her money”. But some people still thought I saved those poor people. I was only the messenger, and no messenger is as great as the one who sent him. And I couldn't have saved one person with my limited means, only through the money you gave me. Who deserves the praise and recognition of saving those poor families?
I know this is a simplified version of God and His Christ. But really, who is the hero. After all, God is the one who loved the world so much that he gave a possession of His so we can be saved. And not to take anything away from Jesus, but there were many people in the Bible who lost their lives trying to spread the word of God, not just Jesus. And to worship Jesus as God acts in direct opposition to God's right to not share His glory and praise with another. Consider 1 Corinthians 15:28, “When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”
Mikeboil……….Right on, i see it that way also.peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 31 2010,12:42) Jesus is called “God” in several scriptures and by the Most High God Himself.
Kathi,I beg to differ. In the scriptures you listed, only one place does it seem that God is calling Jesus – God. And that is in Hebrews (hotly debated).
The Father (the Most High God) does not call his son “God” in any scripture that I am aware of.
Please state it.
Love,
MandyAnd read the next verse in Hebrews, “therefore God, your God has set you above your companions.” So even as Jesus is referred to as a god, it is made clear that it is his God who has the power to set Jesus where He pleases. I think you're getting too hung up on the title “god”. It was used for prophets, angels, Satan, idols, Jesus and God. Remember, it is the translators who decide to capitalize the “g” or not. And capitalizing the “g” in John 1:1 doesn't make Jesus the Almighty anymore than capitalizing it in 2 Corinthians 4:4 would make Satan the Almighty.
Thanks Gene
I knew I couldn't be the only one out there taking this trinity stuff as a personal insult to our God. I listen to K-love on the radio and it makes me sad for God to hear people praying, “Dear Jesus, ……Amen.” The only way to come to God is through Jesus. That's why we pray to God through Jesus' name. Isn't that enough of a distinction to prove they are two different beings?
Quote (mikeboll @ Jan. 30 2010,23:48) And read the next verse in Hebrews, “therefore God, your God has set you above your companions.” So even as Jesus is referred to as a god, it is made clear that it is his God who has the power to set Jesus where He pleases. I think you're getting too hung up on the title “god”. It was used for prophets, angels, Satan, idols, Jesus and God. Remember, it is the translators who decide to capitalize the “g” or not. And capitalizing the “g” in John 1:1 doesn't make Jesus the Almighty anymore than capitalizing it in 2 Corinthians 4:4 would make Satan the Almighty.
Hi Mikeboll,
Read through this thread and you will see that I do not equate the Son of God with the Father of whom I believe is the Most High God. I do see the Son as God by nature though because He is the only son of God. Sons generally have the same nature of their father after all. He also has been exalted above all things except the Father and is and always will be in authority over us.Kathi
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 30 2010,22:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 31 2010,12:42) Jesus is called “God” in several scriptures and by the Most High God Himself.
Kathi,I beg to differ. In the scriptures you listed, only one place does it seem that God is calling Jesus – God. And that is in Hebrews (hotly debated).
The Father (the Most High God) does not call his son “God” in any scripture that I am aware of.
Please state it.
Love,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
I can see how you can read what I wrote the way that you have. Maybe this would have been a better way to say what I meant:“Jesus is called 'God' in several scriptures and one in particular by the Most High God Himself.”
I would think that being called “God” in Hebrews would fit the one that laid the foundation of the earth. I don't know why people make such a fuss over considering the Son as our God when He has the divine nature and took part in creating us. That would be a pretty big plus on His resume in His favor to demonstrate the title is applicable to Him also.
Kathi
Hi Kathi
I'm getting lost I think because of your wording. You call the Son “our God”, but for us, there is only one God, the Father. I don't disagree that Jesus is a god in that he is a supernatural being and an integral part of our salvation, but to say Jesus is our God and the Father is our God makes two Gods. Maybe I'm understanding you wrong.
LU,
I think you are on your own here.
'Lean not on thine own understanding.'
I thought you were getting 'there' but you have disappointed 'me'.
However, I understand that it is a hard thing letting go of deeply held views, even when shown the truth.
You mentioned that you have done so before, so why not again, this time again working towards the refined truth of God Almighty and Jesus Christ.
I believe that you fear to not worship Jesus through sentiment.
Kathi, don't worry about Jesus. His reward is far greater than any 'worship' that man could give him.
As a matter of fact, what is it that you 'sacrifice' to Jesus in your Worship of him? Your soul, your spirit, your alleigence?
Jesus said 'Noone cometh to the Father except by me'.So, if your sacrifice/worship is 'to' Christ what then 'to' the Father?
What do you then sacrifice to God?Worship the Father 'through Christ' but not 'AND CHRIST'.
Kathi,
I shall speak no more of this to you at this time.
I urge you to read with the Holy Spirit of God, understand with discernment, believe by faith.
God Bless, I know you are a true seeker of truth.
Quote (mikeboll @ Jan. 31 2010,00:46) Hi Kathi I'm getting lost I think because of your wording. You call the Son “our God”, but for us, there is only one God, the Father. I don't disagree that Jesus is a god in that he is a supernatural being and an integral part of our salvation, but to say Jesus is our God and the Father is our God makes two Gods. Maybe I'm understanding you wrong.
Hello Mikeboll,I wouldn't equate the “god/God” label that we see in reference to the Son of God with satan as god, or the angels as god, or men as god. Only the Son of God is said to have the nature of God. He does not refute the Pharisees as considering Himself God, He refutes the Pharisees that they would think He was blaspheming. I do believe that the Son of God is God in a way that none of the others are…as a son, specifically and as one that the Father Himself sanctified and sent to shepherd His (the Son's) very own flock.
Quote 24 The R665 Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will F117 You keep us in suspense? If You are the F118 Christ, tell us plainly.” R666 25 Jesus answered them, “I R667 told you, and you do not believe; the R668 works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 “But you do not believe because you R669 are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear R670 My voice, and I R671 know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal R672 life to them, and they will never perish; and no R673 one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My F119 Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 “I R674 and the Father are one.” F120 31 The Jews picked R675 up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; R676 and because You, being a man, make R677 Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your R678 Law, R679 `I R680 SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35 37 “If R684 I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the R685 works, so that you may know F121 and understand that the R686 Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Are you implying that you do not want to be part of His (the Son's) flock since you cannot call the Son “our God.” Must He be called God on your terms or can He be called God on the Father's terms alone? Can He be the God that is in the Most High God? Or, does He have to be the Most High God for you to acknowledge His deity?
I consider Him (the Son) as part of deity over me but I also acknowledge the Father as greater than the Son and not coequal.
Kathi
Hi LU,
Part of deity?
Does the God of Israel have parts?
For us there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.Nick,
I do believe that the Father and the Son are two persons within one Godhead to us albeit, not co-equal, nor co-eternal and I believe that the Holy Spirit is the very spirit of the Father which has been given to the Son. I understand two persons in the Godhead…one Godhead, not two.
KathiHi LU,
One godhead of two persons?
A binity?But Jesus has a God[Jn20].
Is that God not your God but a godhead is?Nick,
Which person is not my eternal authority?
Jesus has a God and I have a Godhead which includes God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Is Jesus your shepherd, are you in His kingdom? Is He your head as well as His God, the Father?Well Nick,
I would say that I am born again by the Spirit of God and transferred into the kingdom of His Son. I am in some sense “in Christ” and Christ is “in God the Father.” That makes me in God the Father because I am in Christ. Don't ask me how that all works but I know that no one can snatch me out of His hand and I am a child of God.
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