The mercy of god

[shimmer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 15 2010,12:23)

Francis, Listen to what The SPIRIT says: But Jesus was saying, ” Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing ” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. Luke 23:33-35 If Jesus forgave them for Crucifying him, how could he bear their sin?

Bod, am I seeing thing's ? Do you believe the Lord was crucified now ? Wow, that's great, you have come a long way ! Sorry, I never knew !

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2010,14:56)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 15 2010,12:23) Francis, Listen to what The SPIRIT says: But Jesus was saying, ” Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing ” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. Luke 23:33-35 If Jesus forgave them for Crucifying him, how could he bear their sin? Bod, am I seeing thing's ? Do you believe the Lord was crucified now ? Wow, that's great, you have come a long way ! Sorry, I never knew !

I believe that this is the Spirit of Prophecy but No, Jesus was not Crucified nor Killed

[shimmer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 15 2010,17:54)

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2010,14:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 15 2010,12:23) Francis, Listen to what The SPIRIT says: But Jesus was saying, ” Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing ” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. Luke 23:33-35 If Jesus forgave them for Crucifying him, how could he bear their sin? Bod, am I seeing thing's ? Do you believe the Lord was crucified now ? Wow, that's great, you have come a long way ! Sorry, I never knew ! I believe that this is the Spirit of Prophecy but No, Jesus was not Crucified nor Killed

But you said “Listen to what the Spirit says” and it said Jesus was crucified, and so did you, Now you say Jesus wasn't crucified, make your mind up ! lol,

[shimmer]

Bod, if you went for a walk up town today, and someone else said you didn't, who do we believe ? You or them ?

If people living thousands of years ago said Jesus was crucified, and a man comes along hundreds of years later and say's “no he wasn't' who do we believe ?

If John say's he saw thing's while in the Spirit and Mohammad says an Angel told him things different to that, who do we believe ?

I feel the spirit, I believe Jesus was crucified and I believe he is the son of the living God and this is revealed – from God

'And ye — who do ye say me to be?'  and Simon Peter answering said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'  And Jesus answering said to him, 'Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2010,21:59)

Bod, if you went for a walk up town today, and someone else said you didn't, who do we believe ? You or them ? If people living thousands of years ago said Jesus was crucified, and a man comes along hundreds of years later and say's “no he wasn't' who do we believe ? If John say's he saw thing's while in the Spirit and Mohammad says an Angel told him things different to that, who do we believe ? I feel the spirit, I believe Jesus was crucified and I believe he is the son of the living God and this is revealed – from God 'And ye — who do ye say me to be?'  and Simon Peter answering said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'  And Jesus answering said to him, 'Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.

Jesus is the Christ who denied otherwise? Not me.

As far as the other part you wrote why did Jesus say

that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
Mark 4:11-13

If Jesus says that it is possible for people to see and perceive or hear and not understand, how is it you can then tell me they all know what they saw?

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,' YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
Matthew 13:13-15

“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Matthew 13:12-14

and then even after the “crucifixion” it is still being said

saying,' GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,” YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
Acts 28:25-27

Now how is it this would keep coming up? If the whole matter was as simple as Jesus was crucified for your sins so just believe in him then what is there not to see or hear?

the crucifixion is a parable as well.

[shimmer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 16 2010,04:09)

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2010,21:59) Bod, if you went for a walk up town today, and someone else said you didn't, who do we believe ? You or them ? If people living thousands of years ago said Jesus was crucified, and a man comes along hundreds of years later and say's “no he wasn't' who do we believe ? If John say's he saw thing's while in the Spirit and Mohammad says an Angel told him things different to that, who do we believe ? I feel the spirit, I believe Jesus was crucified and I believe he is the son of the living God and this is revealed – from God 'And ye — who do ye say me to be?'  and Simon Peter answering said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'  And Jesus answering said to him, 'Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. Jesus is the Christ who denied otherwise? Not me. As far as the other part you wrote why did Jesus say that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.” Mark 4:11-13 If Jesus says that it is possible for people to see and perceive or hear and not understand, how is it you can then tell me they all know what they saw? That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-   (  سورة النساء  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157) “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,' YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; Matthew 13:13-15 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Matthew 13:12-14 and then even after the “crucifixion” it is still being said saying,' GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,” YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; Acts 28:25-27 Now how is it this would keep coming up? If the whole matter was as simple as Jesus was crucified for your sins so just believe in him then what is there not to see or hear? the crucifixion is a parable as well.

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Jesus is the Christ who denied otherwise? Not me.

'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'
You know the Quran say's God has NO son many times in regard to Jesus, so this you do deny.

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As far as the other part you wrote why did Jesus say that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.” Mark 4:11-13

Exactly. Yet you choose not to believe (that He was the son of God and was crucified),

[bodhitharta]

Shimmer,

The fact is I simply say you misunderstand what the term Son of the living God means for instance look:

O ye people! Adore your guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #21)

Now a Guardian can be a Parent, right? But a Guardian is so much more. But in the Quran it also speaks of Parents

A parent is a caretaker of the offspring in their own species

A Guardian is One that guards, watches over, or protects

Which is more appropraite for God?

The point is God is beyond being literal “Father” but their language could not express it. Mary was the Parent of Jesus and God was his Guardian.

Just as I explained to you before in Hebrew Son and Servant are similar words.

God is far above having simply “Fathered” anyone HE CREATES what he wants. I am telling you greater things not lesser things
Do you really think that God has a gender, that HE is a Male? God is not a human he is neither male or female and yet HE made male and female both in HIS image. God is not a male or female GOD “IS”/ HU Allah Hu Akbar/ God IS Great

[shimmer]

Hi Bod,

I have no need to read the Quran, thanks.

God is our Father who loves and cares for those who trust in him. This love includes discipline, refinement, it's not always easy, so long as we go to him, we will find peace.

That includes believing Jesus is the one who overcame and is now seated at God's right hand, which means given a position of power and authority and at the name of Jesus every knee will bow.

…This good news of the coming kingdom will be preached through all the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come…wow, this is happened, would you agree that we are in a time where anything is possible including nuclear war, how close are we to 'the end', scripture has been kept safe and what was said to happen with this good news has been fullfilled, if it says Jesus is the only begotten son of God, that he was crucified, would you not believe it ?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 17 2010,10:36)

Hi Bod, I have no need to read the Quran, thanks. God is our Father who loves and cares for those who trust in him. This love includes discipline, refinement, it's not always easy, so long as we go to him, we will find peace. That includes believing Jesus is the one who overcame and is now seated at God's right hand, which means given a position of power and authority and at the name of Jesus every knee will bow. …This good news of the coming kingdom will be preached through all the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come…wow, this is happened, would you agree that we are in a time where anything is possible including nuclear war, how close are we to 'the end', scripture has been kept safe and what was said to happen with this good news has been fullfilled, if it says Jesus is the only begotten son of God, that he was crucified, would you not believe it ?

If You have no need to read the Quran, why do you insist that you can know better than Muslims when you will not even consider reading what's in the Quran, which means every word you say to a Muslim is based upon ignorance.

I know what is in the Bible and The Quran but you do not yet you claim superior knowledge, it is like someone in High School refusing to go to College and thinking they know everything but in the end they find out that College would have taught them more than they “thought they knew” and would have paid them more.

Does the Scripture say “only at the name of Jesus will everyone bow”? Did you not know that at the name of David everyone bowed or Solomon? All kings are bowed to and Jesus is inheriting the throne of David and is receiving the sure mercies of David but the bowing is to the GLORY of GOD not the GLORY of Jesus, but you think you know what you know so who can argue with that?

[shimmer]

Bod, as reply on other thread say's, I'm done with these questions for now, been there before,

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 17 2010,22:25)

Bod, as reply on other thread say's, I'm done with these questions for now, been there before,

Actually you haven't. If you can't be bothered to read the Quran you should not bothered to judge the Quran or Islam it's like not studying Math and then critisizing a Mathemetician
it just doesn't make sense.

[francis]

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If You have no need to read the Quran, why do you insist that you can know better than Muslims when you will not even consider reading what's in the Quran, which means every word you say to a Muslim is based upon ignorance. I know what is in the Bible and The Quran but you do not yet you claim superior knowledge, it is like someone in High School refusing to go to College and thinking they know everything but in the end they find out that College would have taught them more than they “thought they knew” and would have paid them more. Does the Scripture say “only at the name of Jesus will everyone bow”? Did you not know that at the name of David everyone bowed or Solomon? All kings are bowed to and Jesus is inheriting the throne of David and is receiving the sure mercies of David but the bowing is to the GLORY of GOD not the GLORY of Jesus, but you think you know what you know so who can argue with that?

Hello Asana…

I have bought a copy of the Qur'an and while I have not read all of it, I have read parts of it… especially since I've been in here discussing things with you.    When you bring up something from the Qur'an… I will read it… as well as the material surrounding it.  I will then go on the internet and try to look for material on both sides of the question which you and I may be discussing.

This does not make me an expert on the entire Qur'an, but I am confident about the specific material we may be discussing at any particular moment… because I will go to that part of the Qur'an you yourself will bring up… and then I will analyze it… as I assume you do with the Bible when we discuss verses from that source.

There are many stumbling blocks I have with the Qur'an and Muhammad… not the least of which is the teaching that Jesus never died by crucifixion.  If Muhammad could get it so wrong about the crucifixion… then to me and any rational person… it calls into suspect everything else that is taught in the Qur'an.  I'm not saying that everything in the Qur'an is wrong.. absolutely not.   Let's be very crystal clear on that point because it is so important.  And so I will repeat it again.  I do not believe that everything in the Qur'an is necessarily wrong.

My problem is that when I see Muhammad so easily dismiss and deny the historical fact of Jesus' death by Crucifixion, it calls into question many other things that have come from him.   I have absolutely no confidence in Muhammad at all because of that.  

I may be wrong about all of this, and I apologize if I am.

But I also have no confidence in Muhammad because I can immediately see that there are many occasions when the Qur'an and the Muslims simply do not understand the Christian faith as revealed in the Bible.  And it is no one's fault except the Muslims themselves because they will uncritically buy into and accept Muhammad's assertion that the Gospels and the other writings were corrupted by the Christians.  And yet Muhammad NEVER… NEVER… NEVER offers any proof that this is true… in much the same way that Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church offers absolutely no proof that Christians have corrupted the NT,  and that the Book of Mormon's “corrections” and “additions” and “revisions” and later “revelations” are themselves correct.

Muhammad and Muslims will make the Gospels and the NT say whatever they want it to say,  while offering absolutely no manuscript proof that Muhammad's corrections as found in the Qur'an… were the original autographs… or were from the original autographs of the New Testmanet writers.  

That's incredible to begin with… but what makes this even more amazing… in my eyes anyway… is that on the one hand,  Muhammad and you will say that the Gospels and other writings have been corrupted by Christians… and yet on the other hand you will use those very same New Testament sources to base your knowledge about Jesus on.   You both will have enough confidence in those NT sources to the point that you will believe what the NT says about Jesus… and then you will go and honor Jesus as a highly favored Prophet from God in your religion.  And yet… what is your belief that Jesus was a Prophet from God based on in the first place?  It is based solely on the SAME NT sources which Muhammad  himself said were corrupted… so much that it needed correction by Allah in the Qur'an.

To me, this is a double standard.  It appears to me that you will pick and choose what you want from the NT manuscripts to fit into your preconceived ideas about Jesus and about God.  Therefore what you end up doing is that for those things you don't like in the Bible, you will disregared as being corrupted or misunderstood or wrong… and for those things in the Bible you do like… you will use and keep.  All with absolutely no proof that your claim and Muhammad's claims are correct to begin with.

As everyone knows… this is not a valid, impartial, fair, and scholarly way to examine an issue at all.

This is not a put down in anyway.  Absolutely not.  I can see from your writings that you are a very intelligent person and I know you are a good person.  But sometimes it takes eyes from the outside… eyes that don't belong to ourselves…  to see things about ourselves that we might not be aware of.

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Does the Scripture say “only at the name of Jesus will everyone bow”?

Yes. It says that you will bow before Jesus.  Muhammad will bow before Jesus.  Satan will bow before Jesus.  Everyone will bow before Jesus.  It doesn't say some will and some will not.  It says EVERYONE will.  

There is no other name or person on earth throughout history that EVERYONE bowed to or will bow to.

No to Muhammad or to any Prophet.  Only to Jesus.  Everyone will.  

It says:

“That at the name of Jesus every knee must bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue frankly and openly confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” — Philippians 2:10-11 (Amplified Bible)

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,  and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.  — Philippians 2:10-11 (New International Version)

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,  and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.  — Philippians 2:10-11 (New King James Version)

that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,  and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.  — Philippians 2:10-11 (American Standard Version)

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Did you not know that at the name of David everyone bowed or Solomon?

This is untrue.  While it is possible that everyone in David's and Solomon's kindgoms bowed to them… either because they were loyal subjects or because they did so out of fear… their enemies outside of their kingdoms certainly did not.   David&#
39;s entire reign on earth was marked by war and bloodshed and it is for that reason that God did not allow David to build the Temple.

This shows that David's enemies did not bow before him.

As for Solomon, while it is true his reign was marked by peace, no where does it say that EVERYONE on earth bowed before Solomon.  Solomon's kingdom did not enroach upon other kingdoms which existed at that time in history in other parts of the world.  Solomon's kingdom did not  include everyone on earth at that time.

And we don't see anywhere where Solomon required people OUTSIDE of his kingdom to bow before him.  Or that everyone did or that everyone wanted to. 

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All kings are bowed to…

While it might be true that all kings are bowed to by their loyal subjects… it does not logically follow that the kings enemies will bow before him.   That's the difference between Kings and Jesus.  Everyone will bow before Jesus… His loyal followers as well as His mortal enemies.  However, that is not true with earthly kings.

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… and Jesus is inheriting the throne of David and is receiving the sure mercies of David…

Everyone will bow before Jesus… even David and Solomon.

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… but the bowing is to the GLORY of GOD not the GLORY of Jesus…

The Glory of God and the Glory of Jesus is the same thing because Jesus is God.

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… but you think you know what you know so who can argue with that?

Couldn't someone say this about you and your beliefs as expressed in here?

God Bless You Asana.  Thanks for allowing me to be your friend.  In today's world, it is not always easy for Christians and Muslims to be friends unfortunately.

Respectfully
Francis

[bodhitharta]

Quote (francis @ Sep. 18 2010,06:45)

Quote

Hello Asana… I have bought a copy of the Qur'an and while I have not read all of it, I have read parts of it… especially since I've been in here discussing things with you. When you bring up something from the Qur'an… I will read it… as well as the material surrounding it. I will then go on the internet and try to look for material on both sides of the question which you and I may be discussing.

Praise God! for seeking out knowledge is better than blanket condemnation without knowledge.

Quote

This does not make me an expert on the entire Qur'an, but I am confident about the specific material we may be discussing at any particular moment… because I will go to that part of the Qur'an you yourself will bring up… and then I will analyze it… as I assume you do with the Bible when we discuss verses from that source.

Yes, very well done.

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There are many stumbling blocks I have with the Qur'an and Muhammad… not the least of which is the teaching that Jesus never died by crucifixion. If Muhammad could get it so wrong about the crucifixion… then to me and any rational person… it calls into suspect everything else that is taught in the Qur'an.

Yes, you are right if he is wrong it calls everything into suspect, but here's the thing, At the time of Muhammad it would have been widely known that “historically” Jesus was crucified after all it was certainly being preached that way. So what would make Muhammad say it appeared to have happened but didn't happen?

It would have been a dangerous thing to say and at the same time calling Jesus the Messiah that also would be a dangerous thing to say why Alienate both Christians and Jews unles it was true?

Think about it:

The Jews say that this Jesus was not Christ, Muhammad says yes this was your awaited Messiah

The Christians say the Messiah was Killed by Crucifixion and Muhammad says yes this was the awaited Messiah but he was not killed or crucified but it “appeared” to them that he was.

Just the mere fact of saying it appeared to them speaks to the historical “Fact” but it not happening is nonetheless the revelation given to Muhammad should he have believed man or believe God's revelation?

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I'm not saying that everything in the Qur'an is wrong.. absolutely not. Let's be very crystal clear on that point because it is so important. And so I will repeat it again. I do not believe that everything in the Qur'an is necessarily wrong.

Then you have changed your position, because I do believe that you have said Allah was some other God and not the same God of Israel and if that is the case you would have to believe that everything in the Quran by default is wrong or that There is Only One God and One Jesus Christ

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My problem is that when I see Muhammad so easily dismiss and deny the historical fact of Jesus' death by Crucifixion, it calls into question many other things that have come from him. I have absolutely no confidence in Muhammad at all because of that.

That makes no sense because historically many diseases killed people but then it becomes known that no one needed to die from that disease or even that no one actually died from that disease but rather they died from the treatment such as the earlier treatments of AIDS patients which all mostly died from the treatment. Anyway, you say that Muhammad is dismissing the crucifixion when in fact it is being revealed to him what actually occured and notice this is all not derogatory towards Jesus it is in defense of Jesus and for the love of Jesus.

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I may be wrong about all of this, and I apologize if I am.

God knows best

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But I also have no confidence in Muhammad because I can immediately see that there are many occasions when the Qur'an and the Muslims simply do not understand the Christian faith as revealed in the Bible.

The Christian faith is not cohesive it is filled with a variety of takes on all sorts of principles and various doctrines and it is very clear in the Quran it is discussing many of these aspects of thought and in-fact often anticipating future ones.

From those, too, who call themselves christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #14)

and today there are over 39,000 denominations and it's funny because you will have some Christians declare that Other Christians are not “Christians” They will say that Mormons are not Christians or Jehovah's witnesses are not Christians but they certainly disagree and say that they are.

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And it is no one's fault except the Muslims themselves because they will uncritically buy into and accept Muhammad's assertion that the Gospels and the other writings were corrupted by the Christians. And yet Muhammad NEVER… NEVER… NEVER offers any proof that this is true…

A book of revelation is not a book of proof

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Muhammad and Muslims will make the Gospels and the NT say whatever they want it to say, while offering absolutely no manuscript proof that Muhammad's corrections as found in the Qur'an… were the original autographs… or were from the original autographs of the New Testmanet writers. That's incredible to begin with… but what makes this even more amazing… in my eyes anyway… is that on the one hand, Muhammad and you will say that the Gospels and other writings have been corrupted by Christians…

Wait one second now before you get into that you have to ask me w
hat Canon are you even speaking of. The 66 books of the Protestants or the 73 of the catholics?
————————————————–
http://muslim-responses.com/The_Christian_Canons/The_Christian_Canons_

The Church and their Bibles and/or Canons

The Catholic Church (Canon: 73 books)

The Catholic church as we have mentioned carries a canon of 73 books that includes Tobit, Judith, Greek additions to Esther(from the LXX), Sirach, Baruch, the letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the three Jews, Susanna, and Bell and the Dragon), 1 and 2 Maccabees. [14]

The Protestant Church (Canon: 66 books)

Unlike the Catholic Church, the Protestant Church does not follow the Septuagint or the Latin Vulgate in its canon of scripture. Rather, it follows the Hebrew canon and the 27 books of the New Testament. [15] This yields a total of 66 books as mentioned at the beginning of the article.

Greek Orthodox Church (Canon: 77 books)

The canon of the Greek Orthodox Church includes the all the books of the Catholic canon and in addition to that it also includes 1 Esdras, the prayer of Menasseh, Psalms 151, and 3 Meccabees. That means the Greek Orthodox canon consists of 77 books. The Slavonic canon on the other hand includes 2 Esdras, but designates 1 and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other eastern churches have 4 Meccabees as well. [16]

The Coptic Church(Canon: 29 books in NT)

The canon of the Coptic Church contains all the 27 books, but, adds the two epistles of Clement.[17] This means the Coptic New Testament canon consists of 29 books.

The Ethiopic Church (Canon: 81 books)

The Ethiopic canon is divided into what is called the ?narrower' canon and ?broader' canon.

“The Ethiopic church has the largest Bible of all, and distinguishes different canons, the “narrower” and the “broader,” according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the “broader” canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the “narrower” New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.” [18] (emphasis added)
—————————————————-

No corruption? which one is the actual Bible?

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and yet on the other hand you will use those very same New Testament sources to base your knowledge about Jesus on. You both will have enough confidence in those NT sources to the point that you will believe what the NT says about Jesus… and then you will go and honor Jesus as a highly favored Prophet from God in your religion. And yet… what is your belief that Jesus was a Prophet from God based on in the first place? It is based solely on the SAME NT sources which Muhammad himself said were corrupted… so much that it needed correction by Allah in the Qur'an.

God protects his Holy Books by Clarifying them, The Quran is protecting all that God has said and revealed in the past.

Jesus (The Word of God) did this very same thing:

Matthew 5:38-39 (King James Version)

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

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To me, this is a double standard. It appears to me that you will pick and choose what you want from the NT manuscripts to fit into your preconceived ideas about Jesus and about God. Therefore what you end up doing is that for those things you don't like in the Bible, you will disregared as being corrupted or misunderstood or wrong… and for those things in the Bible you do like… you will use and keep.

Nothing farther from the truth, if God had Jesus crucified for our benefit “Glory be to God” There is nothing I disagree with in the Bible, May I be the first to submit to the truth.

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All with absolutely no proof that your claim and Muhammad's claims are correct to begin with. As everyone knows… this is not a valid, impartial, fair, and scholarly way to examine an issue at all.

Yes, I have investigated these claims, I have found out that some verses have been omitted or added or in the Bible it talks about the scribes being deceitful and lying and then I read in the Quran:

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #13)

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This is not a put down in anyway. Absolutely not. I can see from your writings that you are a very intelligent person and I know you are a good person. But sometimes it takes eyes from the outside… eyes that don't belong to ourselves… to see things about ourselves that we might not be aware of.

I agree and I am more than willing to keep examining the issue out of our own mutual self and co-operative interests

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Yes. It says that you will bow before Jesus. Muhammad will bow before Jesus. Satan will bow before Jesus. Everyone will bow before Jesus. It doesn't say some will and some will not. It says EVERYONE will.

Philippians 2:10 (Darby Translation)

10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal [beings],

But yes I will To the Glory of God

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There is no other name or person on earth throughout history that EVERYONE bowed to or will bow to.

You keep saying “will” but it is interpreted two ways “Will” and “should” and even “may”

Philippians 2:10 (Young's Literal Translation)

10that in the name of Jesus every knee m
ay bow — of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth

Philippians 2:10 (English Standard Version)
10so that at the name of Jesus(A) every knee should bow,(B) in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

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No to Muhammad or to any Prophet. Only to Jesus. Everyone will.

Verily, your Wali (Protector or Helper) is none other than Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, – those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, and they are Raki'un (those who bow down or submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer).
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #55)

55 Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship). Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #55

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It says: “That at the name of Jesus every knee must bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, And every tongue frankly and openly confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” — Philippians 2:10-11 (Amplified Bible) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. — Philippians 2:10-11 (New International Version) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. — Philippians 2:10-11 (New King James Version) that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. — Philippians 2:10-11 (American Standard Version)

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While it might be true that all kings are bowed to by their loyal subjects… it does not logically follow that the kings enemies will bow before him. That's the difference between Kings and Jesus. Everyone will bow before Jesus… His loyal followers as well as His mortal enemies. However, that is not true with earthly kings.

Most interpretations sa “Should bow down” to Jesus as in he is worthy of praise and it does not say his enemies will do so because the bow is to the Glory of The Father

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The Glory of God and the Glory of Jesus is the same thing because Jesus is God.

No, Jesus is the servant of God as the scriptures say clearly

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God Bless You Asana. Thanks for allowing me to be your friend. In today's world, it is not always easy for Christians and Muslims to be friends unfortunately.

God Bless You Francis. And the thanks belongs to you because it is much easier to dismiss someone or be unkind when they are in the majority environment but you have treated me with great respect and kindness, you are truly gracious

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Respectfully Francis

With Love

Asana

[francis]

Hello Asana…

I may be gone this weekend so I can't guarantee I will be able to give you a full answer until early next week.

But until then, if it will make things easier for you, then let's swap out Philippians 2:10-11 for Romans 14:11.

“For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God and acknowledge Him to His honor and to His praise.” — Romans 14:11 (Amplified Bible)

“It is written:  ” 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me;  every tongue will confess to God.' “— Romans 14:11 (New International Version)

For it is written:   “ As I live, says the LORD,  Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”— Romans 14:11 (New King James Version)

For it is written: “`As I live,' saith the Lord, `every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.'”— Romans 14:11 (21st Century King James Version)

———————————–

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Wait one second now before you get into that you have to ask me what Canon are you even speaking of.

As for what Canon I was speaking of… it is the Gospels in the New Testament.  I think the Qur'an also considers the Torah we have today as being a corrupt version of the original Torah.

—————————————-

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Just the mere fact of saying it appeared to them speaks to the historical “Fact” but it not happening is nonetheless the revelation given to Muhammad should he have believed man or believe God's revelation?

God doesn't lie about facts.  God doesn't contradict facts.  If I hear a voice that tells me something that is factually untrue, then I know it is not from God.  

Muhammad… and everyone else… should always believe God's revelation.  But how does one know that the suppossed “revelation” they receive is from God to begin with?

If you can't give me an objective test… then you are in the same boat with Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church who say that what they teach is a revelation from God.  So therefore, using your own logic and using your own words… and asking you the very same question you ask me… then should Joseph Smith have believed man or believe God's revelation?

Do you see the pickle you put yourself if you have no objective test to determine whether a “revelation” is from a demon or from God?  Whether we like it or not, we are all in a spiritual war with satan and his demons for our souls and our minds and our hearts.   So this question I ask of you is of paramount importance.

How do you know a revelation is from God or from a demon dressing it in light to make it apear it is from God?  If you can't answer that question, then you're ripe and ready to be deceived and fooled.

So… how do I know that Muhammad's supposed “revelation” is not from God?  Because the “revelation” is factually untrue.

Do you have a better objective test?  If so, I would like to know what it is.  If you don't, then you and the Mormons are in the exact same boat.  It's like the two of you squaring off and each one telling the other that they've got the true “revelation” from God and the other guy doesn't.  Back and forth it goes forever because neither one can give any objective test or criteria to show us that the “revelation” they got is really from God.

—————————————-

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A book of revelation is not a book of proof

First of all… sez who?  Is this something you made up?  Are you suggesting that the God you worship (Allah) is not big enough or strong enough or smart enough to fill his book of revelation with internal proofs to validate and demonstrate that it is from Him?  Is that so difficult for Allah to do?

Well… Jehovah in the Bible has no problems in making His Book of revelation a book of proofs.

Secondly… another response goes along with the previous answer i gave above.   Using your logic and answer, then ANYONE… ANYONE.. ANYONE can say their book is a book of revelation and because it is not a book of proofs, then there is NO WAY… NO WAY.. NO WAY for anyone to know if the revelation is from God or from a demon.

Your answer puts you in the same boat with the Mormons and the Hindus and the Buddhists and anyone else who says that their Book of revelation is not a book of proofs.

To me… this is a really convenient intellectual cop-out.
—————————-

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FrancisI do not believe that everything in the Qur'an is necessarily wrong. Asana Then you have changed your position, because I do believe that you have said Allah was some other God and not the same God of Israel and if that is the case you would have to believe that everything in the Quran by default is wrong or that There is Only One God and One Jesus Christ

This is a classic non sequitur on your part.  It doesn't logicaly follow that because a book may not have been written by Allah or Jehovah or Jesus…. or because a book is written by Muhammad or Joseph Smith or someone else… then that means there can't be some truths in that book.

It doesn't logically follow that because I believe that the Qur'an is not written by Jehovah… then that must mean that the Qur'an has no truth in it at all.

As anyone knows… the best lies are wrapped up in truth to make it easier to believe.  The best deceptions make use of truth to make the decpetion that much harder to detect.

I'm not saying the Qur'an is a deceptive book… only that your statement is a logical fallacy… it's a non sequitur.

———————————

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and today there are over 39,000 denominations and it's funny because you will have some Christians declare that Other Christians are not “Christians” They will say that Mormons are not Christians or Jehovah's witnesses are not Christians but they certainly disagree and say that they are.

And what's even funnier is that you seem to have completely forgotten that I gave a list of all the various “denominations” (or whatever they are called) which exists among Muslims.  So I can ask you the same question… which one is correct?

The fact is… just as I am assuming you are speaking on behalf of traditional Islam… so you should be assuming I am speaking on behalf of Classical Christianity… especially since I've told you from whence I speak.

————————–

Well… i got to go.  My wife is calling.

As you can imagine, I can go a whole lot deeper with you on all these issues, and I will when I get back.  These were really quick, off-the-cuff answers because I'm in a hurry.    I will also deal with the rest of your post when I get back.   And I will do what I have al
ways done… which is to go through your post line by line.

In the meantime I thought it would be constructive to give at least a few quick answers to some of what you wrote until I can get back early next week and deal with the rest in more depth.

God Bless

Respectfully
Francis

[bodhitharta]

Hi Francis,

Without getting too far until you have finished your entire thought what you said so far would also disqualify Jesus from being the Christ what objective test did he pass or prove, when he did miracles they said he had a demon in him, historically the Messiah the Jews have awaited is 100% Human from the Paternal Line of David and was a warrior who would come and conquer and rule this has not objectively happened hence the term “second coming” there was no historical prophecy about 2 comings of the Messiah. This is why they rejected Jesus and plotted to kill him by crucifixion. There was also no historical belief that the Messiah would come and be killed by crucifixion.

But look Christianity beared fruit anyway and is the largest religion collectively in the world and the same with Islam say what you may it has born fruit and is just as large as Christianity with Christianity having a 700 year headstart and while there are a lot of fundamentalist extremist in the headlines currently, you should perhaps peruse articles on the Golden age of Islam and see how it was originally functioning and the vast contribution it has made to humanity and education.

There is no doubt that you cannot objectively prove that Jesus is even Christ at least not to the standards of Jews otherwise there would be no dispute or question about it with them.

Romans 14:11 only seems to be saying what you think it does because you call Jesus “God” Since I don't have that preconceived Idea I see it for what it says and believe it for what it says.

Regarding Mormonism I believe that there belief is the logical progression of making Jesus a God and God a man it is no different than belief in the trinity the same way you do.

[Ed J]

Quote (francis @ Sep. 15 2010,09:45)

Hello Asana… ———————————————————– Quote Francis   Instead… scriptures says that Christ as God is immutable (Hebrews 13:8; Malachi 3:6), and cannot change in His divine  nature. In Hebrews  1:12 the Father says of Jesus, “You remain the same, and your years will never end.”  And so the word  “curse” cannot mean that Jesus'  entire “substance” or “being” is being altered or changed. Asana So taking on Sin is not a change of nature when it says he BECAME SIN? No… it is not. Becoming sin IS NOT THE SAME THING AS being a sinner .  I have said this over and over in my last  post and I gave at least 4 rational reasons which supports the contention that they are  NOT  the same thing.  If you disagree, then you  need to not only rebut each of the reasons I gave you… but you also need to give positive reasons to SUPPORT YOUR OWN  CONTENTION that they are the same thing. You have done neither… and because you haven't, this means I have successfully rebutted  your claim that you have “debunked Trinity”. ———————————————————- God Bless You! Respectfully Francis

Hi Francis,

What you say here ONLY applies to Civil Court cases!
Your dialog with BD is more comparable to a Criminal case.

BD needs to present the FACTS that substantiate his position,
he does NOT need to refute any of the information that you present.
It is then up to the reader to decide which position is the correct one to believe.

The reader may also consider that neither your nor BD's position is correct!
I hope you both will consider me budding on this a positive roll.

Only the truth will do!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 16 2010,12:47)

Shimmer, … I am telling you greater things not lesser things… Allah Hu Akbar…

See Shimmer,

This is the phrase Muslims yell out as they commit suicide bombings,
proving that they worship ‘the god’ of DEATH! (Isaiah 28:15-19)

Isaiah 28:15-19 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death,
and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we
hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith , Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation
“a stone”(74), a tried stone, a precious corner, a sure foundation: he that believeth (on “Jesus”=74)
shall not [be forced to flee]. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and
the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your (BD)
covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you:
for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

[Ed J]

Quote (francis @ Sep. 18 2010,06:45)

Hello Asana… I have bought a copy of the Qur'an and while I have not read all of it, I have read parts of it… Respectfully Francis

Hi Francis,

Please Post the part where is says Abraham offered Ishmael instead of Isaac,
BD has denied this FACT in a PM to me.
BD constantly talks about being honest, so here is documentation of his…

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 24 2010,13:28)

The Quran does not say Ishmael so your point is moot, why don't you try actually reading before you say something Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 24 2010,09:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2010,03:07) Francis, I'm Glad you agree that Jesus would not have made an acceptable ritual sacrifice: Hi BD, You are overlooking two very important Biblical FACTS! First: The “shadow picture” of the Gospel recorded in Gen.22:2-14. Secondly: The atonement principal located in Leviticus 17:11; culminating in Acts 20:28! Please repent, and come back to the living God! (John 3:16 / John 17:3) You know, based on the account of Gen.22:2-14, “The Bible” and 'the quran' both CANNOT be right on this! The Bible says Isaac and the quran says Ishmael. So it comes down to a choice; which do you believe is correct and which is corrupt? I await your response! Ed J

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 22 2010,18:47)

Quote (francis @ Sep. 18 2010,06:45) Hello Asana… I have bought a copy of the Qur'an and while I have not read all of it, I have read parts of it… Respectfully Francis Hi Francis, Please Post the part where is says Abraham offered Ishmael instead of Isaac, BD has denied this FACT in a PM to me. BD constantly talks about being honest, so here is documentation of his… Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 24 2010,13:28) The Quran does not say Ishmael so your point is moot, why don't you try actually reading before you say something Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 24 2010,09:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2010,03:07) Francis, I'm Glad you agree that Jesus would not have made an acceptable ritual sacrifice: Hi BD, You are overlooking two very important Biblical FACTS! First: The “shadow picture” of the Gospel recorded in Gen.22:2-14. Secondly: The atonement principal located in Leviticus 17:11; culminating in Acts 20:28! Please repent, and come back to the living God! (John 3:16 / John 17:3) You know, based on the account of Gen.22:2-14, “The Bible” and 'the quran' both CANNOT be right on this! The Bible says Isaac and the quran says Ishmael. So it comes down to a choice; which do you believe is correct and which is corrupt? I await your response! Ed J God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Surah 37

99 He said: “I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!
100 “O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!”
101 So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102 Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: “O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!” (The son) said: “O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!”
103 So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104 We called out to him “O Abraham!
105 “Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!” – thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106 For this was obviously a trial-
107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109 “Peace and salutation to Abraham!”

——————————————

Now as I said the Quran does not say which son it was but it is a fact according to the Quran that the Jews have misplaced words and or changed the scriptures for instance the scriptures clearly say at the time of this sacrifice that it was Abraham's ONLY SON and it is also obvious that this son at that time was not a small child. So it s not unreasonable to believe that the Jews replaced Ishmaels name with Isaac out of jealousy.

The bible is constantly protecting itself because as it was later then written

Deuteronomy 21:16-17 (King James Version)
16Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

now it is known that Isaac had just been weaned before this happened and yet it says:

6And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

so a toddler was holding all this wood?

Anyway once again it does not say which son in the Quran but one thing you will agree with and that is we all know who Abraham's Firstborn is

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 22 2010,18:38)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 16 2010,12:47) Shimmer, … I am telling you greater things not lesser things… Allah Hu Akbar… See Shimmer, This is the phrase Muslims yell out as they commit suicide bombings, proving that they worship ‘the god’ of DEATH! (Isaiah 28:15-19) Isaiah 28:15-19 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith , Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation “a stone”(74), a tried stone, a precious corner, a sure foundation: he that believeth (on “Jesus”=74) shall not [be forced to flee]. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your (BD) covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

Wrong people ED

Isaiah 28:7 (King James Version)
7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Muslims do not have priests or prophets or drink . Do you drink and get drunk with wine and call yourself some sort of prophet? I only ask because you stumble in judgement with the numbers

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