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Kerwin
Isn’t that the verse that even many among the Trinitarians is questioned as to whether it is actually written by John being as it is not found in any manuscript prior to the 1500’s or so.
It doesn’t bother me that it was most likely inserted by heretics..
Yes, Satan delights in raising questions over the Word of God… especially when it involves the Deity of his archenemy Jesus Christ the Righteous…
So where do these doubts over ancient manuscripts originate from…?
When we look into the history of our printed Scriptures, we find that the modern movement to revise the English Bible in the 1870’s is based completely on the works of two men named Wescott and Hort. They were responsible for replacing the Universal Text of the Authorized Version with the Local Text of Egypt and the Roman Catholic Church. Both Westcott and Hort were known to have resented the pre-eminence given to the Authorized Version and its underlying Greek Text. They had been deceived into believing that the Roman Catholic manuscripts, Vaticanus and Aleph, were better because they were “older.”
In spite of the FACT that the Universal Text were found to be as old, or older..Westcott and Hort’s goal was to dethrone the Textus Receptus. E.C. Colwell states that, “Hort’s success in this task and the cogency of his tightly reasoned theory shaped – and still shapes – the thinking of those who approach the textual criticism of the New Testament through the English language.”
In other words, the idea that these Alexandrian manuscripts are older and thus somehow more reliable (when in truth they don’t even agree among themselves) stems from the biased judgement of two translators that cannot, on closer examination of their own writings, even be considered believers..!! but in fact appear on every part as instigators in a Roman Catholic anti-reformation effort to undermine trust in the authority of Scripture, by raising doubts over accuracy and reliability of the original manuscripts behind the King James Bible – (the Bible that officially broke the corrupt hold which the Roman Catholic church had over the masses).
There’s much information available over this matter – but what I find interesting from the point of these debates is that you continually accuse me of promoting Catholic doctrine by believing in the Trinity, when in fact, it would appear that you are the ones who have fallen prey to the deceitful influence of the Vatican, by unwittingly accepting the confusion of modern translations over the original Textus Receptus.
So… I stand by 1 John 5:7, and believe that corruption to Biblical text actually come through the omission (not addition) of this and other verses. Remembering that the so-called ‘older’ manuscripts come from Alexandria, Egypt – which was the heart of Gnostic literature and anti-trinitarian belief.
WESCOTT AND HORT VERSIONS Vs KING JAMES VERSION..
..brief but informative video by Chuck Missler, who states that, “The Alexandrian Codices have been overly revered by scholars to our detriment. Because they are very old manuscripts, they tend, in the minds of some modern translators, to have extra weight for being older – which turns out to be a trap…”
Short ‘KJV only’ clip that simplifies and explains the two separate lines of ancient manuscripts behind our various English Bible translations..(touches on 1 John 5:7 verse).
I know for a fact that you cannot say and neither do you believe that the only true God is the Father and that he sent his son into the world, the one whom God made both Lord and Christ. I know you cannot teach this nor repeat this and I know this because you persecute me for repeating it and teaching it. Yet this is clearly written and there is no dispute about it.
If you are not interested in letting the words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John renew your mind, then your mind will eventually become a house bitterness and dead religion. We need our minds to be renewed by the Word because love and truth go hand in hand and the truth sets us free. And to be free is a very good thing. And to not be free is to be in captivity. Those who are of God and are in Babylon need to come out and be free. If they remain, they remain captives.
DavidL,
The KJV is a flawed version that arbitrary translates words to what the translators thought was the right one. They translated Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus to the word Hell even though they should have known they were three different ideas.
The 19th Century of the AV of the KJV was the first standardized KJV while earlier ones varied according to their printers. It was merely updated with a few manuscripts that were found since the original writing and so in general uses the same text as earlier editions. They did not even remove some of the worse flaws in it.
The men you have video of are not creditable if they do not acknowledge there are errors in the KJV as each printing differs before it was standardized. The Wicked Bible was one of the first editions of the KJV and due to an error the word non was omitted from the command “thou shall not commit adultery”. The error was discovered within a year and the printer was discipline for such a flagrant error. In short the people of that time were more honest that those of the KJV only crowd.
DavidL,
Older manuscripts are closer to the source and so have less likelihood that inadvertent errors have crept in or that a biased source has been copied to a later manuscript. More earlier manuscripts, even the originals, would be welcome.
Hi KW,
That is a popular theory.
And the other one is that the commonest manuscripts are likely to be the truest.
Neither is perfect imo.
@t8 I can really related to what you said in your reply to David “But die hard religious people who do not question get all upset about it.”
I’m left the Jehovah’s Witnesses 2 months ago after being part of it for the past 20 years. By asking sincere questions about certain doctrines because I genuinely felt they were at odds with scripture It was amazing how angry fellow JW’s would get at me. I eventually decided to leave & wrote an official letter of Disassociation (resignation) to the body of elders in our congregation. For all my JW FB friends not in our local congregation & due the the shunning rules against those who leave I simply posted on FB that I no longer considered myself a JW & that if they wanted to unfriend me that was up to them but regardless I still loved them as fellow Christians. I couldn’t believe the angry nasty replies that were posted by many of them because of my decision.
A few weeks later I began attending a modern Christian church & have been to a few different ones now but I still find it a bit awkward as while I have rejected the Watchtower & the authority of their Governing Body in Brooklyn I still believe many of their basic beliefs. I have come to realize that the Church is a worldwide thing that is beyond denominational boundaries & the pastors of these Churches acknowledge that too. While I am not in full agreement with some of their doctrines such as the trinity they still accept me as a Christian & welcome me to worship there. From reading several of your posts it seems that I am in agreement with much of what you believe.
Great post too as I’ve seen the Matrix movies & I can understand & grasp the lessons you have pulled from it. I never thought of any of that when I watched it but can now see what you mean.
-Tony
Thanks for your post, it is always good to get encouragement.
I have had a lot of criticism of this writing, but also a lot of encouragement and compliments.
And I am glad that we have independently came to many of the same conclusions about the true doctrine and faith, but from a completely different background and experience. There really is one God the Father as Paul taught us and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And every tongue will confess he is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Not that he is God to the glory of God.
Yes, the identity of Jesus is of utmost importance because Jesus built his Church on who he truly is. We know who he is because Peter said that he was the son of the living God and the messiah and it was on this that Jesus built his Church.
All doctrines that teach that Jesus is God are purposed to draw us away from the true foundation.
BTW, Admin and t8 are the same person, (me). One is meant for my posts and the other for maintenance of the site and other admin duties.
I hope to hear from you here again. 🙂
Nick, Kewrin is right. The older the manuscript, the less chances for corruption (not without corruption) because the more time, the more time for corruption. If the manuscript was one minute old, then not much chance for corruption. As time goes by, more chances. Basic logic.
This doesn’t mean that an older manuscript will always be more reliable, but that the chances are higher that the text has suffered less corruption. It’s a bit like cancer or erosion. The longer it is there, the more damage or change it can/will do.
I was already a Christian for 10 years prior to becoming a JW. As such I had been taught & believed all the regular orthodox beliefs/doctrines. It was many of their basic teachings that I felt were scripturally correct that convinced me that they were the true religion that they claim to be. 20 years later I no longer agree with so much of what you come to learn/believe AFTER baptism into the religion, often not until many years after. I honestly think that when Charles Russell began to study the Bible independently with his small group of International Bible Students (as they were then called) did discover that many of the doctrines of orthodox Christianity were erroneous . Things such as the truth about Hell, Jesus not being God etc. However, Russell later went too far & declared himself God’s Only Channel of Truth on Earth. He then began writing The Watchtower magazine & other books & really went way off track as he developed many teachings that were absolutely ludicrous. The current Governing Body of the JWs are no different today as they go way beyond what the Bible actually teaches in formulating there “Must be believed” doctrines.
You gave me a hard time about using the Matrix as a way to communicate the true gospel, and now you have one of the main characters of that movie as your avatar. lol.
I agree with David…You will Baptsim in the Name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.
Hear oh Israel, the LORD your GOD is ONE.
That is why Jesus said: “I and the Father are ONE. If you have Seen Me You have Seen the Father”..and when Thomas “Knew” him by being In Touch with Him in the ‘Upper Room”..He said MY LORD MY GOD.
No one Knows the Son But The Father (Who was with HIM from before ‘The Beginning) and no one knows the Father but the Son, and they whom He Chooses to Reveal Him.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.… who is That? CHRIST. Paul specifically states so in Colossians The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross
See GENESIS 1 then Read Genesis 2. Notice on thing…The LORD GOD is never Mentioned until we Enter into Genesis 2…THE IS HE was WIth Him in THE BEGINNING..but what about ‘BEFORE THE BEGINNING? He is Hidden In God as we are Hidden in Christ. God said ‘Let there be LIGHT” ..That is “THE SON”..it is SPIRITUAL LIGHT… And He is The Light of Man…the bible often makes a grave error in my opinion of putting things as if they are ‘were’ in past tense. There is no such thing as PAST TENSE with GOD…He is ETERNAL and is Never Not Always Continuously NOW and has never been anything but NOW in regard to Time. In any case…The Holy Spirit is referenced twice in Psalms..and when Jesus was Baptized by John and the Holy Spirit descended on Him like a dove and The Father Said: “This is my Son in Whom I’m Well Pleased”…you have the “Concept’ of the Trinity right there. The ‘Trinity’ issue ..or problem is in our own minds and the way we think in ‘numerical ways’…no one ever said we have to ‘believe in the Trinity to be saved’..it is a REALITY in it’s own Right..it cannot be Known in Truth but in Truth…that is Revelation. I do see many parallels with the Gospel in the Matrix..or rather man’s dilemma..but I also agree that it is a dangerous movie in other regards..just read other peoples’ analysis.. one person wrote that we are all our OWN SAVIOR…and that the Father Son and Holy Spirit is myth..taken from Father Mother and ‘Androgynous Son’..they got that from the very dangerous person Joseph Campbell and the likes of Alan Watts.
Hi Stephen.
I am going to challenge you with rebuttals to your main points. I will dedicate a post to each statement that I am replying to. I hope you don’t take offense and see them for what they are, an honest search for truth.
Hear oh Israel, the LORD your GOD is ONE.
Agreed. Very important.
Hear oh Israel, the LORD your GOD is ONE.
That is why Jesus said: “I and the Father are ONE.
Jesus claimed that he is one with the Father in John 10:30. Does that make him God then?
“I and the Father are one.”
This verse is a favourite with those who teach the Trinity Doctrine. The real question you need to ask yourself is this:
Does being one with something make you that thing? Or does being one with a person make you that person?
The obvious answer is a clear “no”.
If Eve was one with Adam, then that obviously doesn’t mean that she is Adam himself. Rather it means both were in unity as two people. Likewise a husband and wife who are said to be one are two people who are married. It doesn’t make the woman the man or the man the woman. They are still two different people, but are now in unity, a team, or together. While Eve is part of mankind just as Adam was, and us too, being one with Adam never made her Adam himself, and being one with our husband or wife never makes us our partner.
So Jesus being one with the Father or one with God means that he is actually not God because it means that he is the other person in the relationship. It means that Jesus is not the Father, and is not God, but is a different person to God, but is in unity with God. If Jesus were actually God, then you wouldn’t say that “he is one with God”, rather you would say that “he is God”. Simple as that.
Case in hand. Jesus said this in John 17:20-22:
I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one
John 17 clears this up. The oneness being talked about is unity and we already know that unity with God doesn’t make you God, and that it actually means you are not God. To be one with something or someone means you are not that thing or person, rather you are one with and in unity with that thing or person. Further, we are invited into this oneness and clearly we are not God before and not God after the fact. Each one of us should be one with God like Jesus is one with God. We should also be one with Jesus, and one with the brethren too. We are never taught that we will become God, Jesus, or all the other brethren because we are one with them.
Finally, when Jesus said “I and the Father are one”, he preceded those words with this in verse 29:
“My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all.”
Clearly, the Father is the greatest, even greater than the son. He is the greatest because he is God of all. He is even God to his son, Jesus Christ. He is the Father of all including Jesus Christ. Jesus said it himself in John 14:28:
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
As for God, he made it clear in John 20:17 that God is not Jesus. Instead what is clear is that God is also his God.
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
Been a few years since I was engaged in this topic.
Reading through, I can see a couple of Pharisees were trying to condemn myself and others.
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