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Adam……I believe Your getting the word “El” (most high in power) as a name of a person, that’s the error, the person called “the most high or “EL”, IS NAMED “YEHEOVAH”, El is a descriptor of who YEHEOVAH is. The word El, is not a different person. “EL”, SHADAH IS “YAHOVAH ” OUR GOD.
That is the way I see it brother.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam. ……….gene
Hi brother Gene, please read the following;
El was the Canaanite father of the gods and therefore the father of the gods in the earliest Hebrew religion. At first, Yahweh was not one of the gods in the Hebrew pantheon, but he seems to have arrived in Judah, probably from Midian, quite early. Although not known among the other north-western Semitic societies (except perhaps the Moabites), he quickly became the national God of both Judah and Israel.
Of course, El was the father of all the gods, so Yahweh quite naturally was one of his children. Deuteronomy 32:8–9 explains how El Elyon (‘Most high God’) divided the nations among the seventy children of El, with Yahweh receiving his share:
(taken from RSV)
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men,
he fixed the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 For the Lord’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.But most of the dominant versions like NKJV or NIV read as
8 When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations,
When He separated the sons of Adam,
He set the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the Lord’s portion is His people;
Jacob is the place of His inheritance.The passage originally said “according to the number of the children of El”, but the obvious polytheistic connotations of this result in the change to the rather meaningless “according to the number of the children of Israel.” The original is preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
As the Israelites focussed more on the worship of one important God to the virtual exclusion of others, Yahweh was syncretised with El (Hebrew: Elohim) to become one God.
This is one of the traces of the earliest religious background of Israelites which remained even after rapid redaction and careful editing of texts to suit the evolved religion from Polytheism to Monotheism. This we can clearly find in the prophetic books like Isaiah 44-46 which I mentioned in my earlier posts.
The Canaanite origin of the Israelites:
There is overwhelming archaeological and written evidence that, rather than being outsiders from Mesopotamia who later became the Israelites, the ancestors of the Israelites were part of the pre-existing Bronze Age population of Canaan and that they have simply emerged out of the local population. The evidence for this is in the history of Canaan, the Canaanite language, the Canaanite religion, archaeology, and in comparing the language, religion and culture of the Canaanites with that of the Israelites. I will discuss this in more detail below.
The political landscape of Canaan:
Throughout the Bronze Age, up to the 12th century BCE, the land of Canaan contained a number of city states. The entire Canaan was under Egyptian control, but the different city states were allowed considerable self-government, each with its local Canaanite king (a petty king). They were also allowed to worship their own gods.
One of these Canaanite city states was the coastal city of Ugarit in northern Canaan (modern Ras Shamra in Syria). Ugarit was a Canaanite centre of wealth and commerce. The city was destroyed around 1200 BCE, probably by the Sea Peoples, during the Bronze Age collapse. Two libraries of clay tablets, called the Ugaritic texts, were discovered during the 1920s in the ruins of the city of Ugarit. It gives us a very good description of the Canaanite language, religion and culture.
The Canaanite languages:
There were a number of Semitic languages in Canaan, with Phoenician, biblical Hebrew and the language called Ugaritic being part of the Northwest Semitic languages. According to Dr David Neiman, scholar in biblical studies and Jewish history, Ugaritic is an older language by a few centuries than biblical Hebrew, but it is not a different language. Ugaritic is an older version of biblical Hebrew, much like Shakespearean English is an older version of modern English. Just like modern English has evolved from Shakespearean English, the Hebrew language used in the Bible, which was written centuries after the destruction of Ugarit, has evolved from the language used in the Ugaritic texts.
The Canaanite religion:
The Ugarit texts describe a rich mythology that has evolved from earlier Mesopotamian polytheism. The Canaanite religion itself was also polytheistic. They had a pantheon of gods, called the Elohim (meaning “children of El”), consisting of four tiers:
The sky god El and his wife Asherah in the first tier, at the head of the pantheon:
El is also known as El Elyon, meaning “Most High of all the gods”. El is the creator god, the father of all other gods and humans. He is also the god of wisdom and a good-natured, beneficent being.
Asherah/Athirat, El’s consort or wife, and the mother of the seventy gods.
Seventy gods in the second tier. They are the children of El and Asherah, including:Ba’al, the storm and rain god. Ba’al’s position is elevated over that of his siblings and he shares some of the functions of his father El in presiding over the pantheon. Ba’al is the husband of the earth, and he brings fertility and impregnates the earth with rain. He also protects humanity against the destructive forces of nature, for example the sea god Yamm.
Anat, the goddess of love, war and hunting.
Mot, the god of death, burning and pestilence, and ruler of the Underworld.
Yamm, the god of the sea, and Ba’al’s enemy.
Crafts-deities in the third tier.
Minor deities in the fourth tier.The Israelite religion:
The origins of the Israelite religion in Canaanite polytheism is clear from archaeology, from comparison with other Ancient Near East religions and from a close comparison of the Ugarit texts with the earliest Hebrew texts of the Bible, as well as other texts, for example the book of 1 Enoch. It shows that the early Israelite beliefs involved a three-tiered pantheon, essentially the same as the Canaanite four-tiered pantheon, but with the roles of the two middle tiers collapsed into one.
There is plenty of evidence that the Israelite religion started out as a typical Canaanite polytheistic religion and a typical Ancient Near East religion in general, and that it gradually evolved into henotheism and monolatry, and finally into monotheism:
Polytheism: acknowledging the existence of many gods and worshipping many of them.
Henotheism: acknowledging the existence of many gods, worshipping only one of them, but allowing other people to worship other gods.
Monolatry: acknowledging the existence of other gods, worshipping only one of them, and prohibiting the worship of other gods.
Monotheism: worshipping only one god and denying the existence of other gods.
Polytheism in the ancient Israelite beliefs:There is evidence (biblical and archaeological) that the early Israelites have worshipped El and his wife Asherah, as well as other gods in the pantheon, for example the storm and rain god Ba’al.
Yahweh, the ancient Hebrew war god, started out as one of the sons of El, the Most High. Yahweh does not feature in the pantheon of the Ugaritic texts, but he was a later Israelite addition to the pantheon, possibly to replace the war goddess Anat in a highly patriarchal society.
For example, have a look at this Bible passage from the ancient Dead Scrolls:
When Elyon divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he established the borders of the nations according to the number of the sons of the gods. Yahweh’s portion was his people, [Israel] his allotted inheritance.
– Deuteronomy 32:8–9 (Dead Sea Scrolls)
As mentioned previously, in the Canaanite religion the head god El’s full name was El Elyon (“the Most High of all the gods”). He and his wife Asherah were at the head of the pantheon called the Elohim (meaning “children of El”), with the other gods in the second tier as the sons of the gods El and Asherah.
So, the above passage in the Dead Sea Scrolls refers to El dividing all humans into 70 nations, giving his son Yahweh the nation of Israel as inheritance. This corresponds with the 70 nations that emerged after the flood in the Noah narrative in Genesis. It is also consistent with the notion of the patron god in the other ANE polytheistic religions: different gods in the second tier of the pantheon ruling over different geographical areas or nations like kings.
The meaning of these verses are obscured in later translations (for example the Masoretic text), creating the impression that it refers to the 12 tribes of Israel (the 12 sons of Jacob), while it actually refers to all humans (descendants of Adam). It also obscures the fact that it actually refers to two deities (El and his son Yahweh). Compare the same passage in the King James Version with the Dead Sea Scrolls above, with specific reference to the phrases in bold:
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
– Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (KJV)
Other examples of biblical evidence for the polytheistic nature of the beliefs of the Israelites:
The word Elohim (original meaning “sons of El” in the Canaanite religion), was subsequently used more than 2500 times in the Hebrew Tanakh, and was used to indicate anything from a range of gods, the Divine Assembly (see below), the god of the Bible, other gods (for example Chemosh, the god of Moab), and even kings and prophets.
The Divine Assembly, also called the Divine Council or Synod of Gods, played an important role in the Canaanite religion, where El presided over the Divine Council. In the Hebrew Bible the god of the Israelites presided over the Divine Council. See for example Psalm 82, where God has council with the other gods in the Divine Council, accuses them of corruption and sentences them to death.
Yahweh and the Israelites attacked the Canaanites, but they were unable to conquer them, because the Canaanites had the new technology of iron chariots. The matter of fact way in which the author relates the story is consistent with the polytheistic notion that the patron gods were not all that powerful, especially when they were on another patron god’s turf. Therefore, they did not blame Yahweh for his inability to handle the new technology, but sometimes perceived failures like this on the part of the god could lead them to doubt the power of their own god and to start worshipping one of the other gods instead.
The Israelites attacked the Moabites, but the king of Moab sacrificed his firstborn son to their patron god Chemosh, who unleashed a burst of divine anger upon the Israelites, forcing them to retreat.In Canaanite polytheism, the sun, moon and stars were considered demigods in the fourth tier of the pantheon. In the Bible there are numerous examples of the stars singing the praise of Yahweh and falling from the sky, Yahweh reprimanding the morning star for trying to take position higher up with the other gods, the sun coming out of his tabernacle every morning like a bridegroom and so on.
The origin of the name Israel in the Bible is itself also a clue to the polytheistic nature of the early Israelites. It is from a story with a rather mythological element in the Bible, where Jacob physically wrestled with either God or an angel throughout the night, after which God named Jacob Israel (Yisra’El in Hebrew), meaning “he who has struggled with El”.
Monolatry/henotheism in the ancient Israel beliefs:
There are also many examples of monolatry and henotheism in the Old Testament, for example a number of references to Yahweh as a jealous god. One example of this is at the beginning of the Ten Commandments:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God […]
Exodus 20:3-5, King James Version (KJV)
References to “Yahweh and his Asherah” have been found, for example two different pottery shards dated to 800 BCE that reads:
“I have blessed you by Yahweh and his Asherah”
“Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!”
In other words, Yahweh had a consort or wife called Asherah, which is the same as the wife of the sky god El. This is one example of how the roles of El (the Most High of all the gods) and Yahweh (El’s son) were gradually merged together and it illustrates the evolution of the Israelite religion from polytheism towards monolatry.The advent of monotheism and Judaism:
By the middle of the 7th century BCE, Israelite beliefs were still fluctuating between henotheism and polytheism, largely dependent on the political landscape and climate at the time. This much is clear from archaeology and from the Bible itself.
This changed under King Josiah, who was the king of Judah from 641 BCE to 609 BCE and who instituted major religious changes. There is a wealth of evidence, both archaeological and written, that under the leadership of King Josiah there was a strong drive towards monolatry (not yet full monotheism) for the Israelite nation, with a mainly political purpose: binding a nation together and uniting them under one god. All worship of gods other than Yahweh were declared an anathema and the cause of Judah’s ill fortune. A vigorous campaign of purging “foreign” worship was started, including destroying shrines to “foreign” gods like Ba’al and Asherah in the temple of Yahweh and in the countryside, and killing their priests.
Although much of the Torah (the first five books of the Bible) was written earlier, it is widely agreed by modern scholarship that the Torah reached a major part of its current form during these few decades at the end of the 7th century BCE. This was done by a group of scribes, court officials and priests, who acted as editors and redactors. Polytheistic references were removed (although not all of them) and the narratives of the patriarchs, the exodus and the conquest of Canaan (some of which have been written previously) were written to create a history for the nation of Israel and to establish their claim to the promised land.
This can be seen, for example, in the politics and geography of the narratives from Abraham to Joshua, which is almost in its entirety based on 7th century BCE geography and political landscape, instead of the 2nd millennium BCE geography and political landscape, when the narratives are said to have taken place. The people who wrote these stories in the 7th century BCE were simply not aware of the geography and political landscape of several centuries prior to that.
As part of the changes implemented by King Josiah and the leaders of Judah, the temple at Jerusalem was declared to be the only place of worship for the entire Israelite nation. Sacrifice to Yahweh was prohibited everywhere, except in the inner sanctum of the temple. The political ambitions of the leaders of Judah was to make the Jerusalem temple and royal palace the centre of a united Israelite kingdom.
This was what we can describe as the birth of Israelite monolatry, the worship of one god in one place. For some time after this the worship of the God of Israel was still accompanied by the veneration of other divine beings, and the Israelite beliefs were not yet fully monotheistic (denying the existence of other gods). However, the groundwork was laid by Josiah and the Israelites were ready for monotheism. That happened some decades later during the 6th century BCE, after the Judahites’ captivity in Babylonia and their exposure to Zoroastrianism, an older monotheistic religion. Denying the existence of other gods only started to happen in those parts of the Hebrew Bible that were written after the Babylonian captivity.
Modern scholarship agrees that we can really only start to describe the Israelite beliefs as Judaism, like we know it today, after this political drive by King Josiah in the 7th century BCE.
Continued…….
Yahweh and the rise of monotheism
The worship of Yahweh alone began at the earliest with the prophet Elijah in the 9th century BCE, but more likely with the prophet Hosea in the 8th; even then it remained the concern of a small party before gaining ascendancy in the Babylonian exile and early post-exilic period. The early supporters of this faction are widely regarded as being monolatrists rather than true monotheists; they did not believe Yahweh was the only god in existence, but instead believed he was the only god the people of Israel should worship. Finally, in the national crisis of the exile, the followers of Yahweh went a step further and outright denied that the other deities aside from Yahweh even existed, thus marking the transition from monolatrism to true monotheism.
The Ascension of Yahweh
Archaeology and a careful reading of the biblical texts confirm what we in some sense already know intuitively: that monotheism in the Near East did not emerge in a vacuum. Though Beersheba, Sinai, Golgotha, and Mecca are now considered important milestones in an evolution from polytheism to monotheism, none occurred in isolation. Rather, they are associated with developments that rested on the shoulders of contemporary philosophical, theological, and sociological circumstances. Monotheism, like any influential idea, developed over centuries and entered history gradually.
Israel’s transition from a polytheistic society into a (more or less) monotheistic one—a transition that runs in tandem with political centralization and that can be—to some extent—substantiated by texts of the Hebrew Bible. This Israelite tradition finds its origins in the polytheism of the ancient Levant. The pantheon there—and the decentralized political structures that reinforced it— provided the context in which Israelite religion developed. The Hebrew Bible maintains glimmers of a more pluralistic conception of divinity; critical moments in its text suggest that Yahweh is one deity among several. Although he is the deity of the Israelites and ostensibly the creator of the world, the neighboring peoples always—and the Israelites often—acknowledge the existence of other deities. And yet it seems clear that an important ideological shift occurred between the events the biblical writings relate and the composition of those texts. Somehow, the Israelites—who were, like any other Near Eastern people, polytheistic and decentralized—had become a centralized political structure championing a form of monotheism. Therefore a change had occurred in two realms—the political and the religious. Both began as decentralized and pluralistic, but with the Davidic monarchy each had become singular—one king and one deity.
Beginning around the time of the judges until well into the monarchy, the mythological personages of El and Yahweh gradually melded into one deity. The idea can be substantiated in part because the later prophets (such as Isaiah) seem to speak of an era before the monarchy in which Israel was polytheistic, but suggest that after the monarchy it became more monotheistic. Bible began with the initial J-text and was subsequently augmented with new writings by new writers. Each of these writers would have carefully removed most polytheistic fingerprints left by the preceding writers, although the text maintains vestiges of polytheism. Since even the earliest of these texts was written after the formation of the Davidic monarchy, it seems that even these writers lived during a period of emerging monotheism because the rise of the Davidic monarchy is one of the pivotal events in monotheism. The final edit to this portion of the biblical text—by the Deuteronomist around 440 BCE—was written when most of the kings of the monarchy were little more than a mythological memory. Therefore the epic spanning from Deuteronomy to 2 Kings is more solidly monotheistic than other books of the Torah that occasionally bear the footprint of polytheistic traditions; these later texts were composed after the monarchy had better solidified its legitimacy based on the relationship between David and Yahweh.
Hi LU
You
Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.
1 Corinthians 8:4
So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one.Jeremiah 2:11
Has a nation ever changed its gods, though they are no gods at all? Yet My people have exchanged their Glory for useless idols.2 Chronicles 13:9
But did you not drive out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites? And did you not make priests for yourselves as do the peoples of other lands? Now whoever comes to consecrate himself with a young bull and seven rams can become a priest of things that are not gods.Me
AMEN !🙏
Continued…..
Yahweh—originally a southern warrior deity would in the monarchic period become indistinguishable from El. Yahweh’s description as the “Lord of hosts” or as the head of a divine pantheon seems to have been lifted directly from the tradition of El, as similar titles are applied to El in the Ugaritic scriptures. Although by the time of the Bible’s composition the heavenly hosts would be understood not as other deities, but angels, it seems clear whence this tradition derives.
El is the only deity—apart from Yahweh—not maligned in the biblical text. The Bible directs no polemic against him, but he is instead consistently praised; his name—like Yahweh’s—appears in names of prominent prophets (Daniel, Ezekiel, Samuel, Israel, etc.). The inclusion of the name seems to assume that for the Israelites “El” was merely another word for “Yahweh” or else biblical writers would not have included the name in some of their most beloved prophets. Certainly a prophet deriving his name from
“Baal” would have been unthinkable. The debate surrounding these names has caused some controversy among scholars; some—like Tigay—suggest that the inclusion of Yahwistic names (Jeremiah, Zachariah, etc.) implies that Yahweh was the exclusive deity for these people. Mark Smith counters to say that although no examples exist of the Canaanites adopting their own deities into their names, they clearly worshiped these deities. Moreover, the lack of such evidence is unsurprising as we have very few names of Canaanite prophets independent of the Biblical text.Regardless, the inclusion of both deities into the names of prominent Israelite prophets suggests that both deities were important in the religion. And it is also clear in Canaan’s early history that the two were distinct. After Jacob’s prophecy about his sons, for instance, he praises El (Genesis 49:25) who is ostensibly separate from Yahweh, whose praise is awkwardly inserted (perhaps as a redaction by the later P source) between the prophecies of Dan and Gad (49:18).
Joshua 22:22—“God [el] of gods [elohim] is Yahweh”—may propose a relationship between El and Yahweh. And yet, we must be cautious in accepting this as a concession by biblical writers of the distinct persons of El and Yahweh. “El” here is in its constructive form, therefore implying it means not the proper noun, but rather the generic term “god”, therefore echoing similar superlatives elsewhere in the Hebrew text (i.e.,“king of kings”, “song of songs”, “holiest of holies”). And yet, the verse is still important
because it—like the earlier verse of Exodus 15 above—seems to apply that Yahweh is not a singular element in the pantheon, but rather the head of a pantheon.In the later P text, such monolatrous strands seemed to have gradually faded into a more monotheistic cosmology. In particular, the two deities seem to have melded into one. Yahweh discusses the history of his name in Exodus 6, revealing that he and El are one. “And God says to Moses, ‘I am Yahweh. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, [and] to Jacob as El Shadday, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known unto them.” It is highly likely that this is a late redaction by the P source (done in the Exilic period or later).
Regardless, it is an imaginative way of solving the problem of having two chief gods—that they are in fact the same. Its inclusion all but concedes that the two deities were long imagined as separate deities, otherwise such a dramatic revelation—that Yahweh and El represent the same deity—would not have been necessary. The melding of these two deities into one was probably significantly aided by El’s undeveloped
character; as an aged and distant deity, his personality posed no real clashes with the younger southern god called Yahweh.Adam: I also differ from your interpretation of Deut 32:8-9 as the original text clearly states that Yahweh the god of Israelites was a subordinate to Most High (Elyon) and one among the sons of god (El may the Most High) as it is written “When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods”No it doesn’t. What ever gave you that idea? Show me the actual words you are referring to. (Not another long copy and paste – but just the words of that particular scripture that make it clear Yahweh is insubordinate.)
Adam: El was the Canaanite father of the gods and therefore the father of the gods in the earliest Hebrew religion.
Nonsense. El is simply one of the singular Hebrew words for “god”. Eloah is another singular version. Elohim is the plural version. And Elyon means the most high god. Yahweh is called by all of those words in the Bible.
You err in believing your sources that if the Bible refers to “el”, it’s referring to someone other than Yahweh. Why would you believe such a thing?
For example…
Adam: Of course, El was the father of all the gods, so Yahweh quite naturally was one of his children. Deuteronomy 32:8–9 explains how El Elyon (‘Most high God’) divided the nations among the seventy children of El, with Yahweh receiving his share:
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men,
he fixed the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 For the Lord’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Okay… I can clearly see the words of the passage. Tell me (in your own words) how you’ve decided that “the Most High” in verse 8 is a Canaanite god and not Yahweh. Tell me how these words identify Yahweh as one of this Canaanite god’s children.
Gene, Kathi, Berean, Proclaimer, Jodi, everyone else…
Psalm 8:5… You made him a little lower than the gods; You crowned him with glory and honor.
King David said that Yahweh made mankind a little lower than the gods. Do we all agree that David was talking about God’s heavenly sons (“angels”), and that they are openly called gods in scripture?
It’d be nice to get a clear acknowledgment on this one before moving on to even more scriptures that teach of the many gods in the Bible.
Are angels called gods in scripture? YES or NO?
(It’s weird to even ask that question, since Yahweh’s heavenly sons are NEVER called “angels” in scripture, but ARE often called gods. Yet today people freely call them “angels”, but bend over backwards to avoid calling them gods. It’s like people today are doing it exactly backwards from how it was done in the Bible.)
Okay then. Moving on…
Psalm 138:1… A Psalm of David. I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
Who are these gods that King David is singing praises about Yahweh to?
Hi Mike
Before the gods I will sing praises to You:
We can’t imagine that David meant he would praise Yahweh in the actual presence of idols and images of other gods. There are three ideas about what David meant by his singing praise before the gods (elohim).
· Perhaps it was a declaration of allegiance to Yahweh and Him alone, and the gods represent the idols of the heathen.
· Perhaps gods (elohim) in this context refer to angelic beings, as in a few other places in the Hebrew Scriptures.
· Perhaps gods refers to kings or judges, such as are spoken of later in verse 4.
i. “A witness against the impotence of idols…. Praise belongs to the Lord alone and not to the gods of the nations, whose kings will have to submit to the Lord.” (VanGemeren)
Personally, I’m quite in favor of this explanation…
Which explanation, Berean? Your source lists three different ones – the first of which their own words disavow.
Here are some others…
Psalm 95:3
For the LORD is a great God, a great King above all gods.Psalm 96:4
For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; He is to be feared above all gods.Psalm 97:7
All worshipers of images are put to shame–those who boast in idols. Worship Him, all you gods!Who exactly are all these different gods?
2 Kings 1:2-4… Now Ahaziah had fallen through the lattice of his upper room in Samaria and injured himself. So he sent messengers, saying to them, “Go and consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if I will recover from this injury.”
But the angel of Yahweh said to Elijah the Tishbite, “Go up and meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and ask them, ‘Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going off to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?’ Therefore this is what Yahweh says: ‘You will not leave the bed you are lying on. You will certainly die!’ ” So Elijah went.
Notice that Yahweh doesn’t scoff and tell Ahaziah that he’s stupid to ask a manmade idol about the future. He doesn’t deny that Baal-Zebub is a real god, but instead calls him a god – even using the plural Hebrew form. Yahweh doesn’t even deny that Baal-Zebub could tell Ahaziah if he would recover from his fall. We know from scripture that the other gods have the ability to know certain future things. (Acts 16:16-19)
Yahweh’s complaint wasn’t that Baal-Zebub wasn’t a god who could tell Ahaziah his future… but that Ahaziah would consult a DIFFERENT god about these things than the God of Israel. (“You shall have no gods before me.”)
And who is Baal-Zebub, God of Ekron?
Matthew 12:24-27… But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
Jesus said to them, “If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out?”
Mike, “Hugh” problem, you still have , is your, not understanding the word God , big or little, comes from the same word, and is never describes the person, it describes is “YOUR”, relationship with any object that exists, that you “worship” and lean on for your power and strength, that’s “YOUE” ”TRUE”, and can be anything or anyone living or not living , and it can be to you a God. It makes no difference why , because a God is not anything, UNLESS you have a God “relationship with it”. GET IT. The word GOD is a discription of “YOUR” relationship with something, anything. So the word God is never a person, it’s YOUR relationship with it. It (that relationship) can be a person or anything that exists, that is why we always say (YAHOVAH ) OR (YAHWEH ) “OUR GOD” . when we do that we give “our” God a name. That identifies him. THAT is why we always say things, like, his God, their God, the God of him or her, the God of this or that, my God, our God, you see a God cane be anything it just depends who or what you are Appling that “relationship” to.
Like it say, “though God’s there be many, “But”, unto “US”,(true believers) there is but “ONE” God, and one lord , Jesus Christ. You see Mike unto us there is “only” one. That not talking about anyone else , like you who say there are many “true” God’s you believe.
We (true believers, including Jesus ) don’t have any other God’s’, or gods.“we” only have one. HIS NAME IS “YAHOVAH ” .
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Gene: Mike, “Hugh” problem, you still have , is your, not understanding the word God , big or little, comes from the same word, and is never describes the person, it describes is “YOUR”, relationship with any object that exists…
Perhaps you’re just not explaining this concept correctly. Please copy and paste a scholarly writing that explains that “el/god” is never a person, but always a relationship. Because you keep claiming the same thing, and it makes no sense to me. For example…
Psalm 138:1… A Psalm of David. I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
Is David saying he will sing praises in the presence of RELATIONSHIPS that he has with other objects/persons?
Is he saying that he worships a bunch of gods, and will praise all of them?
Tell us what King David is saying in Psalm 138:1, Gene. What do his words actually mean according to you?
And what does he mean in Psalm 8:5, when he tells us that Yahweh created mankind a little lower than the gods?
A little lower than other people’s “relationships with objects or persons”? What does that even mean, Gene?
Which explanation, Berean? Your source lists three different ones – the first of which their own words disavow.
Mike
It can be one of three possibilities.
God bless
The only begotten God is also The only begotten Son. He is not in the category of the other “sons of God.” It is possible that the other sons of God that were made through Jesus are considered gods in some sense. From what I remember, the word “elohim” has more than one definition which could include supernatural beings like angels. I don’t have the time to research this.
The DEFINITION of elohim is god/gods, Kathi. Your memory is correct that the word is applied to what we in English call “angels”. The writers of scripture didn’t ever call them “angels”. They called them messengers, gods, sons of God, spirits, and demons. In Ephesians 6:12, Paul calls them “the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms”. In 1 Corinthians 8:5, he just calls them gods.
But the question you overlooked is about Psalm 8:5…
You have made them a little lower than the gods and crowned them with glory and honor.
In your opinion, are these what we call “angels”? And if so, would you then acknowledge that spirit sons of God are considered as and explicitly called gods in scripture?
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