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Berean: Satan promised Eve that if they ate the fruit forbidden by God, they would become LIKE GODS.
Satan was not talking about the Father and the Son of course but about “powerful people knowing good and evil”…Agreed. Satan said that if Adam and Eve ate the fruit that would “become like gods, knowing good and evil”. Then God said that Adam and Eve had “become like us, knowing good and evil”.
Do you understand? Watch…
Gen 3:5… you will become like gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:22… The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
You said that the “us” in verse 22 is God the Father and his son. I’m asking you why Satan called God the Father and his son “gods” in verse 5.
Get it? The “us” in verse 22 is the very same people as the “gods” in verse 5. God confirmed what Satan had said. Satan said, you will become X, and then God said, they HAVE become X.
So if your understanding is correct, and the “us” in v22 is indeed God the Father and his son, I’m asking you why the serpent would have called “God the Father and his son” gods in verse 5.
What is your answer?
Mike
I believe that when Satan says: “like gods” he does not mean the Father and the Son…. unless…
I think he may have been referring to what Paul said later
[5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)Satan wanted to raise their ego, he actually wanted to drag them down.
Who are the other lords in Isaiah 26:13-14?
13 O Lord our God,
other lords besides thee have ruled over us,
but thy name alone we acknowledge.
14 They are dead, they will not live;
they are shades, they will not arise;
to that end thou hast visited them with destruction
and wiped out all remembrance of them.Adam. ……the words, “other lords”, there is (adoni), that is meaning a human ruler of some kind, But the LORD God , is (adonia) or YAHOVAH, a personal name of “our” God. Big difference in word meanings.
Psa 110v1……a Plsm of David., “the LORD said unto my lord , sit you at my right hand, until I make your enimies your footstool. ”
The LORD IS THE NAME (YAHOVAH ) A PERSON WHO IS OUR GOD, said unto a lord (a human ruler) , Jesus Christ ,
Big difference in word meanings Adam.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam. ……….gene
Hi brother Gene I know the difference between these two Lords but I am interested to know about these lords who were besides Yahweh here in these verses.
Hi Gadam
A bit of an answer that I think makes sense
O LORD our God, masters besides You
Have had dominion over us;
But by You only we make mention of Your name.
They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish.Masters besides You have had dominion over us; but by You only we make mention of Your name:
The humble heart repents of past idolatry, and rejoices in the present freedom in the LORD.i. The humble heart sees the folly of their past idolatry: They are dead, they will not live. The humble heart sees the victory of the LORD over all idols: You have punished and destroyed them. “Obviously this verse does not suggest that the ‘other lords’ had real existence as deities but simply that they were believed to have and that their rule was sinfully acknowledged by the people in past times.” (Grogan)
ii. The Hebrew word for dominion is baal, which can mean master or husband. Of course, Baal was also the chief god of the native Canaanites, and a seductive idol for Israel. In this prayer, Judah essentially said, O LORD our God, masters besides you have mastered us.
Hi Berean thanks for your reply to my post. In fact I searched these verses in different translations like RSV, NRSV, KJV, NKJV, NIV etc. Here is the NIV of Is 26:
13 Lord our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us,
but your name alone do we honor.
14 They are now dead, they live no more;
their spirits do not rise.
You punished them and brought them to ruin;
you wiped out all memory of them.The ‘other lords’ certainly are not human rulers as stated by Gene. This is the reason why Mike and myself are debating on the many gods of the Bible. The Hebrew religion which was the primary source of Christianity had taken its birth from Polytheism in the land of Canaan in the Ancient Near East. In spite of those vigorous redactions and editing there are few traces of these multiple gods in the Bible.
Adam…….The problem is, the use of the word, God, being applied to something as the person himself, because the word God is a “descriptor of a relationship”, you have with something, “anything” that exists can be your God. Why? Because the word God , does not show a person, but a relationship with it, “anything”. So Buddha is the real God of Some, Baal others , Dagon others, a person’s money, and on and on it goes endlessly. It all depends on your “RELATIONSHIP ” with that object, that qualifies it as “your” “true”, God. So a man can say my car is my God and it could be, “TO HIM” , “HIS” TRUE GOD. If it fulfills the definition of the word God, get it? Yes it is an actual God to “HIM”.
THAT IS WHY Jesus said, “this is eternal life Father , that they may believe in “YOU” the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD. That’s to “us” the true believers, that is.
1 Corp 8 ; 5-6…….“for though there be, that are called God’s, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be God.s many and lord’s ) < the parentheses was added to the text., “BUT”, unto “us” there is but “ONE” GOD, the Father, of whom are all things, and we “in” him;
GOD, Adam is a general description of a “relationship”with someone or thing, anything and it can actually be “that” person’s (real) God , if it fits the description of What a God is. Get it brother?, because The Word God dosen’t describe the person or the thing itself, but the “RELATIONSHIP” YOU HAVE, with that person or thing. We always have to add the name of who or what it is thats, the God were talking about. Why? Because God is not the name of the person it’s the “relationship” with it.
As far as Mike using the upper case and lower case thing , that all garbage , because there exist no such thing as Big or little God’s in the actual original texts.
Did that clarify what I am trying to say brother.
Peaceand love to you and yours Adam. ………gene
The Hebrew religion which was the primary source of Christianity had taken its birth from Polytheism in the land of Canaan in the Ancient Near East.
Gadam ,
No, it is God HIMSELF who is the Source of the Hebrew religion and of Christianity. Abraham, descendant of Shem, was an instrument in the hands of God to be the witness of the God who justifies the believer. Isn’t he called the father of believers?
THAT IS WHY Jesus said, “this is eternal life Father , that they may believe in “YOU” the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD. That’s to “us” the true believers, that is.
1 Corp 8 ; 5-6…….“for though there be, that are called God’s, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be God.s many and lord’s ) < the parentheses was added to the text., “BUT”, unto “us” there is but “ONE” GOD, the Father, of whom are all things, and we “in” him;
Hi brother Gene, the above are two verses that created too much confusion in the Christianity which made its origin from the Hebrew religion where there is no such thing as “One God and One Lord”. Please come out of such dilemma which was created by those NT writers, especially the Hellenist like Paul. The Hebrew religion evolved into Monotheism from its origin from Polytheism and declares its God Yahweh alone is the God of gods and Lord of Lords as per Deut 10:17
17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe
Deut 6:4-5
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord alone. 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
Isaiah 44:6,8
6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.8 Do not fear, or be afraid;
have I not told you from of old and declared it?
You are my witnesses!
Is there any god besides me?
There is no other rock; I know not one.Isaiah 45:5-7, 14-15
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
besides me there is no god.
I arm you, though you do not know me,
6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is no one besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I the Lord do all these things14 Thus says the Lord:
The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia,[f]
and the Sabeans, tall of stature,
shall come over to you and be yours,
they shall follow you;
they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying,
“God is with you alone, and there is no other;
there is no god besides him.”
15 Truly, you are a God who hides himself,
O God of Israel, the Savior.Isaiah 46:9-10
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, “My purpose shall stand,
and I will fulfill my intention,”The above verses declare the hardcore version of Monotheism of the Hebrew religion. So you can not go into another developed and evolved religion like Christianity which made Jesus, the first Century Jew into a mythological being who was preexisting with God and some how involved in creation of God. Also he was made as the savior of the sinners of the world. And without him there is no redemption of the mankind and even there is no so called “Eternal Life” which is no where mentioned in the whole of the Hebrew Bible.
So brother please have broad understanding on these two religions. I find the Christianity as more mythological than the Hebrew religion.
Berean: Mike
I believe that when Satan says: “like gods” he does not mean the Father and the Son…. unless…
I think he may have been referring to what Paul said later
[5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)Yes, 1 Cor 8:5 helps out. Who exactly ARE these “many gods” in heaven and earth that Paul mentioned? Who exactly ARE the gods that Satan said Adam and Eve would be like if they ate of the fruit?
That is the question I keep asking. WHO. ARE. THEY?
This is also the question I keep asking of Gene, Proclaimer, and Lightenup. Here it is again…
Gen 3:5… your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:22… Behold, the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil…
I’m simply asking who those gods are… the ones Yahweh calls “one of us”. The ones Paul calls “many gods – in heaven and on earth” in 1 Cor 8:5.
I know from scripture that these gods are Yahweh’s heavenly sons, like Jesus and Satan, and Gabriel, and Michael, and Dagon, and Chemosh, and Ashtaroth, etc.
I’m trying to help YOU GUYS understand what I already know. But if you can’t even answer the second question of the thread about the many gods of the Bible, then how will you learn? How can we all learn together if you don’t respond in a sensible and DIRECT manner?
Who are the gods that the serpent mentioned in Gen 3:5, that Yahweh called “one of us” in Gen 3:22, and that Paul called the “many gods of heaven and earth” in 1 Cor 8:5?
Gene? What is your answer? WHO are these gods?
Proclaimer? Who are these gods?
Kathi? Who are these gods?
Jodi? Who are these gods?
Hi Mike
Happy to see You again
You write :
Gen 3:22… Behold, the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil…
I’m simply asking who those gods are… the ones Yahweh calls “one of us”.
Me
In Genesis 3:22, God speak about HIMSELF AND about HIS Son like in Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.This IS that I believe. God don’t speak about”gods”
In Genesis 3:5, “the gods” of whom Satan speak are perhaps certainly humains beings deified by humans, I’m thinking of Nimrod, for example, who founded Babel.
Adam and Eve did not become gods because they repented.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
[5] For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.Adam and Eve did not become gods because they repented.
Psalms 8:5
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?
[5] For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.Angel
430
‘elohiym
el-o-heem’plural of ”elowahh’ (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:–angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
The point with Adam and Eve is that Satan promised them something that apparently in their eyes would be better than what God promised them.
Him Satan coveted the place of God and his only desire is to divert us from the ways of God.
Mike,
You asked:
Kathi? Who are these gods?
I do believe the question should be “who is this elohim?”
Answer: YHVH Elohim, i.e. the God of gods and the Lord of lords who is the Father and the Son. The same YHVH elohim that made man in their image.
In Gen 3:5…Satan speak : your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 👉as gods= strange gods
In Gen 3:22…God the Father speak Behold, the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil… us=FATHER 👈AND SON👈
Berean: In Genesis 3:22, God speak about HIMSELF AND about HIS Son like in Genesis 1:26.
LU: YHVH Elohim, i.e. the God of gods and the Lord of lords who is the Father and the Son. The same YHVH elohim that made man in their image.
Thank you both so much for your honest and direct answers. Kathi understands the plural word “elohim” to be referring to Yahweh, whom she believes to be two persons – one of whom can say, “Let US do this thing” to the other. That is a fair and honest answer.
Berean has given this answer before, but also claims that the “gods” in Gen 3:5 are NOT God the Father and His Son – which is why I tried to push him/her further on the answer, since it seems abundantly clear that the “elohim” in 3:5 IS/ARE the “us” in 3:22 as Kathi, I, Gene, and Adam all understand it.
At any rate, Berean keeps offering more great scriptures in his/her answers. For example, he now lists Psalm 8:5. In the Hebrew text, the word is the plural “elohim”, ie: either “God” or “gods”. But in the LXX, seventy Hebrew and Greek scholars who were very familiar with both languages in the time they were being widely used on earth, translated the Hebrew “elohim” in Psalm 8:5 into Greek as “aggelos”, ie: “messengers”. English translators then often render the Greek “messengers” as “angels” when they believe the messengers in question were heavenly beings.
The point is that the word “elohim” doesn’t MEAN “messenger” or “angel”. It means “God” or “gods”. And the fact that seventy pre-Jesus experts translated David’s Hebrew “elohim” as “messengers” tells us that they understood David to be talking about heavenly beings, and not about the Most High God. The fact that the post-Jesus writer of Hebrews 2:7 understood it to also mean heavenly messengers (angels) offers even more support that David was talking about heavenly beings other than Yahweh in Psalm 8:5.
Yet David clearly called these heavenly beings “gods”. Berean is right that the word “elohim” in Psalm 8:5 most certainly refers to “angels”. So my question to you all is:
WHY would King David call these heavenly sons of God “gods”?
And we’re still waiting for why Paul would say there are “many gods – in heaven and on earth”. Who are these “many gods in heaven” that Paul was talking about?
Of course, they are the same ones that King David called gods in Psalm 8:5.
Are you guys starting to get the picture that the Bible teaches about many different gods – and one Most High God who is the God of all the other gods? (Deut 10:17, Dan 2:47, Joshua 22:22, etc)
Because that is the point of the thread – and there is much more to come.
Berean: In Gen 3:5…Satan speak : your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
gods= strange gods
In Gen 3:22…God the Father speak Behold, the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil…
us=FATHER AND SON
Thanks Berean. You made your answer perfectly clear that time! 👍 I (and most people) understand the “gods” of 3:5 to be the exact same people as the “us” in 3:22… especially considering the same wording, “knowing good and evil”. It’s okay that you don’t. I greatly appreciate your responses, and look forward to the next ones.
THE BIBLE’S MANY GODS (A Christian version)
The idea that there are other “gods” who exist as real supernatural beings, albeit infinitely inferior to the only Creator and Redeemer, pervades the Bible. The Psalms fairly explode with evidence. “There is none like you among the gods, O Lord” (86:8); “For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods” (96:4); “Our Lord is above all gods” (135:5); “Ascribe to Yahweh, [you] gods, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength” (29:1, my trans.); “He is exalted above all gods” (97:7); “For Yahweh is a great god, and a great king above all gods” (95:3, my trans.). And so on.
But it’s not just the Psalms. In Exodus Yahweh predicts that he will execute judgments “on all the gods of Egypt” (12:12). The author of Numbers then declares that that is indeed what happened: “Yahweh executed judgments against their gods” (33:4). There is no hint that Yahweh is the only God. Instead it is clearly implied that Egypt has her own gods, and Yahweh will defeat them.
When Yahweh gives his people the Ten Commandments, the first commandment implies the existence of other gods: “You shall have no other gods before me” (Exod. 20:3; see also Deut. 5:7). In Exodus 23:32–33 Israel is told not to covenant with or worship other gods; there is no suggestion that the gods of Israel’s neighbors do not exist.
In Deuteronomy 4:19 the Israelites are forbidden from worshipping “the sun, the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven . . . [which] Yahweh your god has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven.” In other words, they were told not to worship other gods, not because those gods did not exist, but because they were supposed to rule other peoples, not Israel.
Yahweh himself, who created and rules the other gods, would rule Israel directly. He would rule the nations indirectly through the delegated authority of other gods. This, apparently, was the original intent behind the strange passage regarding the “prince of Persia” in Daniel 10: “The prince of Persia withstood me [perhaps the angel Gabriel] twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me” (v. 13).
Something had gone terribly wrong in Psalm 82. The supernatural beings He had appointed to rule the nations justly had failed to perform. They were supposed to rule with justice, executing judgments on behalf of the poor, the widows and the rest of the nations. But because they did not judge properly, Yahweh would judge them. And the punishment was ferocious.
[Yahweh] has taken his place in the divine council,
In the midst of the gods he passes judgment. . . .
And all of you, sons of Elyon [God Most High]
Instead like Adam you shall die,
And like one of the ‘Shining Ones’ you shall fall.”
“Arise, O Yahweh; Judge the earth!
May you take possession of all the nations!”If these “gods” were really human beings, verse 7 would not make sense, for all humans die like Adam. Why would this be a special punishment? Instead, there is a hint in this verse of cosmic rebellion against Yahweh. It calls to mind Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, where the king of Babylon and prince of Tyre are condemned for their rebellious pride. In Isaiah 14:13–14, the rebellion is explicit. The “Shining One, son of Dawn” (the same phrase used here in Ps. 82:7) tried to place himself above “the stars of El [the highest God, or Yahweh]” to “sit enthroned in the Mount of Assembly (of the gods),” to “be like Elyon [the fuller name for the Most High God].”
The drift of these passages is that the gods—which are sometimes regarded in the Hebrew Bible as fallen angels and arguably are the genesis of Paul’s “principalities and powers”—are condemned to death not simply because of their failure to rule with justice, but more importantly, for their rebellion against their Maker, Yahweh. Their unjust rule of the nations was simply one of many expressions of their rebellion, which was the principal reason for Yahweh’s discipline.
Christians later came to see these two stories in the prophets as allusions to Satan’s fall from grace. Once created as God’s most gifted and beautiful supernatural being, Satan abused his authority and then led a rebellion against Yahweh. God punished him by limiting his authority on earth; he is still the “god of this world” (2 Cor. 4:4) but his authority is checked by God’s sovereign purposes, and his final destruction is decreed.
N. T. Wright calls this “creational monotheism,” which means that Yahweh rules over a cosmos thick with not only good angels but also fallen angels masquerading as the true God. Wright insists that “we have very few examples of ‘pure’ monotheism anywhere, including in the Hebrew Bible.”
For the biblical authors, these weak and beggarly “gods” helped explain why this cosmos seems to be at war, both spiritually and politically. They believed the ancient pagan religions were animated by powers hostile to Yahweh, actively fighting Yahweh’s control of the cosmos. It was no surprise to them that history is full of conflict, because its driving animus is conflict between supernatural forces, which are visibly represented by both religious and political communities.
Link…https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/01/the-bibles-many-gods
I think the above version may support our Mike’s views on ‘Many Gods of the Bible’
You are right, Adam. That is almost word for word how I have described it myself. Well done. 👍
And even more great scriptures attesting to the many other gods besides Yahweh in the Bible.
Who here still believes that Yahweh is literally the only god in the scriptures – or in existence?
Proclaimer? Where you been?
Gene? You still out there? What say you to the newly added scriptures of the last few posts?Jodi? You still out there somewhere?
Berean? Are you starting to understand about the many different gods of the Bible yet?
Kathi? I know you agree with me and Adam that the Bible is loaded with a ton of real, actual gods. Why not say so for the record?
Define real, actual gods. Do you mean gods by nature or gods not by nature yet supernatural and having some type of authority?
Berean? Are you starting to understand about the many different gods of the Bible yet?
Mike
Gods who are “short of breath”
the Pope also proclaims himself above all👇
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. 2 Thess.2:3,4
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