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Hi,
1Cor 15.45f
“So also it is written
'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'
The last Adam became a lifegiving spirit.
However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As to the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as to the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”So Christ was first natural. He had a weak perishable body like us. He had to die and his seed was planted in the soil [v36, Jn 12.24]for him to be resurrected in new life, a life which has become a source of eternal life for us.
He was not a man in heaven who came but a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh. He was not yet fully the man from heaven when he was born like us but is the man from heaven on his return to heaven and when he returns to earth.
He is wearing now and he will be wearing then his imperishable new body which we too, in the first resurrection, will put on an image of.
I CORINTHIANS 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.The word Lord here is Kurios which is used througout as Lord in the New Testament. Translating it as “man” is not so good in my opinion…
Hi,
I have had another look at 1 Cor 15.40 and found I was wrong on something
“There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one and the glory of the earthly is another.”
We know Christ has and we will have heavenly bodies. But who else has such bodies? the Sons of God? the angels?Hi ,
1 Thess 1.9f
“how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come”So Jesus is not the true God we worship and serve, but the son of that God.
Jesus is to return AS the Son from heaven, to take us to be with him and rescue us from the world leaving those who suffer the wrath of God in the great tribulation.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2006,22:44) Hi,
1Cor 15.45f
“So also it is written
'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'
The last Adam became a lifegiving spirit.
However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As to the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as to the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”So Christ was first natural. He had a weak perishable body like us. He had to die and his seed was planted in the soil [v36, Jn 12.24]for him to be resurrected in new life, a life which has become a source of eternal life for us.
He was not a man in heaven who came but a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh. He was not yet fully the man from heaven when he was born like us but is the man from heaven on his return to heaven and when he returns to earth.
Hi NickI would read those same verses and say that therefore Jesus didn't literally exist at all before he was born, because “the spiritual is not first, but the natural”.
What you're saying is that before he was born, Jesus was a spirit of divine nature – yet Paul clearly says that Jesus “became a lifegiving spirit” when he was resurrected. The order that Paul gives is natural -> spirit, not spirit -> natural -> spirit.
Peter says that Jesus “was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you” (1 Pet 1:20) – I don't see how you can be foreordained if you already exist.
Sam
Hi Sammo,
The life giving Spirit of Christ was not poured aut among his followers until he was resurected and taken back to heaven. So while he walked the earth he was filled with that Spirit but was not yet the source of eternal life through that Spirit.
Thus the man from heaven, the Son from heaven who became a life giving spirit.ps Jn 7.38f
“'He who believes in me,as the sctripture said, from his innermost being will flow rivers of living water'
But this he spoke of the Spirit, whom those in him were to receive;for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified”Hi sammo,
So you say Jesus was a spirit of divine nature before he came in flesh? How long had such a spirit existed before coming?Hi sammo,
Christ, as man and according to the flesh, was a natural man begotten from God through Adam and Mary. The natural came first, the second Adam. The natural man became a life giving spirit.His previous divine spiritual nature is not part of the equation. It was emptied out along with shedding his glory.
It was housed by the natural body and later the spiritual body, and itself housed the Spirit of God, which was poured out to allow his followers to share in his body and the powers and graces he has.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,02:43) Hi sammo,
So you say Jesus was a spirit of divine nature before he came in flesh? How long had such a spirit existed before coming?
No, I'm saying that Jesus didn't exist at all before he was born. He had been part of the plan of God before he was born, but nothing more than that.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,02:55) His previous divine spiritual nature is not part of the equation. It was emptied out along with shedding his glory. It was housed by the natural body and later the spiritual body, and itself housed the Spirit of God, which was poured out to allow his followers to share in his body and the powers and graces he has.
Personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch from 1 Corinthians 15. It's really simple – Jesus had a natural body when he was born, which became a spiritual body when he was resurrected. That Paul doesn't mention any kind of previous spirit-existence of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 seems like strong proof to me that Jesus didn't exist as a spirit before he was born.It would make things a lot clearer if you listed all the verses that describe this pre-birth spirit existence of Jesus, please.
Sons are sons because they're born to their parents – I never yet met a son that didn't have a father, for instance. So where in the Bible do we read about Jesus being born to his father? (The start of the gospels, obviously). Does it really have to be any more complicated than that? Was Jesus a son before he was born?
Hi sammo,
Indeed the Son of God was sent into the world. He came in the flesh[1Jn 4.2]
1Jn 4.9f
“By this we know the love of God was manifested in us, that God has
SENT His only begotten Son
so that we might live through him.
In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and
SENT His Son..”
Not a thought or a plan but He sent His Son into the world.Jn 8.42
“I proceeded forth
AND
have come from God”You confuse me.
Why would you say he was a spirit of divine nature in one post and then deny it?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:07) You confuse me.
Why would you say he was a spirit of divine nature in one post and then deny it?
Hi NickNow I'm confused! Please quote my statements that you think contradict each other.
Quote (Sammo @ May 12 2006,06:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,02:55) His previous divine spiritual nature is not part of the equation. It was emptied out along with shedding his glory. It was housed by the natural body and later the spiritual body, and itself housed the Spirit of God, which was poured out to allow his followers to share in his body and the powers and graces he has.
Personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch from 1 Corinthians 15. It's really simple – Jesus had a natural body when he was born, which became a spiritual body when he was resurrected. That Paul doesn't mention any kind of previous spirit-existence of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 seems like strong proof to me that Jesus didn't exist as a spirit before he was born.It would make things a lot clearer if you listed all the verses that describe this pre-birth spirit existence of Jesus, please.
Sons are sons because they're born to their parents – I never yet met a son that didn't have a father, for instance. So where in the Bible do we read about Jesus being born to his father? (The start of the gospels, obviously). Does it really have to be any more complicated than that? Was Jesus a son before he was born?
Hi sammo,
If Jesus was resurrected into a different body than that which he died in then he was not resurrected at all.The sign of the resurrection, as with Jonah, is to be seen again by men as you were before you died or spent three days in a whale.
Was Jonah in a new and different body when he was spewed onto land by a fish? That is the sign given by Jesus.
If Jesus was in a new body and yet it was tattered and torn such that Thomas could pierce it with his fingers and hands then what point is there in having this new body?
Our new body is going to be like the Man from heaven according to 1 Cor 15 so will we still have tattered and torn perishable bodies too?
Scripture does not say so.It says he has, and we will have a new imperishable body.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:07) 1Jn 4.9f
“By this we know the love of God was manifested in us, that God has
SENT His only begotten Son
so that we might live through him.
In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and
SENT His Son..”
Not a thought or a plan but He sent His Son into the world.Jn 8.42
“I proceeded forth
AND
have come from God”
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John” (John 1:3). Did John pre-exist as a spirit being in heaven before he was born? (No.)“In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9) Did Jesus pre-exist as a spirit being in heaven before he was born? Not on the basis of 1 John 4:9 or John 8:42.
Quote (Sammo @ May 12 2006,07:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:07) 1Jn 4.9f
“By this we know the love of God was manifested in us, that God has
SENT His only begotten Son
so that we might live through him.
In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and
SENT His Son..”
Not a thought or a plan but He sent His Son into the world.Jn 8.42
“I proceeded forth
AND
have come from God”
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John” (John 1:3). Did John pre-exist as a spirit being in heaven before he was born? (No.)“In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9) Did Jesus pre-exist as a spirit being in heaven before he was born? Not on the basis of 1 John 4:9 or John 8:42.
Hi Sammo,John was “sent from God”
Since when did
“sent from God”
have the same meaning as
“sent from heaven”?God is not a synonym for heaven.
All prophets are sent.Jer 1.7
“But the Lord said to me
'Do not say
“I am a youth”
because wherever I SEND you , you shall go…'”Ezek 2.3
“He said to me
'Son of man, I am SENDING you to the sons of Israel.'.”Two events are recorded in Jn 8.42
The “proceeding forth” and the “coming from” God.
Scripture is efficient with words and this is not a repetition as the words are separated by “and”.The “proceeding from” occurs before the “coming from”.
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