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Quote (t8 @ Sep. 15 2011,12:17) Hi david, It appears that many translations say, in the midst or among you while the KJV says within you.
Usually that would have some weight in my assessment as I think the KJV often stands alone and is also wrong on some of those stances.However, the word among or within is entos {en-tos'} which is also used in Matt. 23:36.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.And in the latter context you would not say among the cup or plate unless you said among the cups and plates.
However, to add another layer of complexity, Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and surely he wasn't saying that the Kingdom was within them.
(Or was he? Jesus did say “my sheep hear my voice”. And that hearing is in the spirit and is not talking about physical hearing which the Pharisees were able to do.)
It would however make sense to say among them (Pharisess) if indeed Jesus and/or his disciples were among the Pharisees, so to speak.
Hi T8,
you actually seem unbiased in discussing this, as if you don't really have an opinion, which is both refreshing and odd.Strongs says that it means “within, among.” So, the word ITSELF could mean either. Which means:
It comes down to context. As you say: “Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and surely he wasn't saying that the Kingdom was within them.”
Since Jesus (the king of the kingdom) was standing right in front of them, surely it could be said that the kingdom was among them, the Pharisees.
Was the kingdom “within” the pharisees? As Mike frustratingly likes to point out, the kingdom is a real thing. Repeatedly, scriptures speak of it as a government, and dictionaries exist for reasons.
Further, as for it possibly being “in” the pharisees, how did Jesus feel about the pharisees? Jesus called them “hypocrites” and “serpents” and said “how are you to flee from the judgement of Gehenna?”
Here's where I say CASE CLOSED:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.” (Matthew 23:13)T8, IS THE KINGDOM “WITHIN” THE PHARISEES?
IF Jesus said the Pharisees “shut up the kingdom” before men, and prevent ones from entering it, and they themselves “DO NOT GO IN” how, oh how, OH HOW, please explain how, anyone could believe that the kingdom is “within” them? How? How? The pharisees, Jesus essentially condemned them to Gehenna, asking how they would flee from that judgment. They shut up the kingdom.
HOW CAN ANYONE LOGICALLY THINK THAT THE KINGDOM IS WITHIN THEM? I find that idea absurd to the highest degree.
I would like anyone who believes this to explain it to me.Quote Regarding the part I quote above, Jesus did say that he was in the Father and the Father in him, and that we could be one with each other and them in like fashion.
Now if Jesus is the appointed king of this kingdom and he can be in us, then it could be taken that hearing his voice and instruction is from within us because that is where he dwells.T8, I believe you are doing here what Gene likes to do. You are compiling a lot of different ideas and mixing them up. This is why quoting scriptures is so important.
“Jesus did say that he was in the Father”–T8
OK, but we are concerned with whether the KINGDOM is within the pharisees or among the pharisees. So….“and that we could be one with each other and them in like fashion.”
If you quoted the scripture and the whole scripture you'd find that that scripture is talking about being “one” in purpose, or in other words, unity. Regardless, what would that have to do with whether or not the KINGDOM is within/among the pharisees?“then it could be taken that hearing his voice and instruction is from within us because that is where he dwells.”
So, JESUS dwells in us…(I'd like that scripture cited, just for fun), but does that scripture, whatever it is say the KINGDOM dwells inside the pharisees, the very ones who shut up the kingdom of the heavens?….the very ones who don't go in themselves and prevent others from entering the kingdom?Continuing:
Quote It is quite feasible that he rules our heart and from there the mind and body is directed.
How would that apply to what he said to the PHARISEES?Quote Perhaps the Pharisees only needed to hear God's voice. That still small voice within them.
Perhaps by not hearing that voice, they bore witness as to being cut of from God by their own choice.“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.” (Matthew 23:13)
When Jesus said these words, I don't think he was speaking to a few individual scribes and a few individual pharisees. I think Jesus knew what the pharisees were all about. I think he knew their hearts. I think his words about them are pretty clear. Dont you?
Hi David,
Are you sure Joseph of Arimathaea wasn't a Pharisee?
John 19:39 seems to indicate that Nicodemus accompanied
Joseph of Arimathaea when he legally acquired Jesus' dead body.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,17:00) “then it could be taken that hearing his voice and instruction is from within us because that is where he dwells.”
So, JESUS dwells in us…(I'd like that scripture cited, just for fun), but does that scripture, whatever it is say the KINGDOM dwells inside the pharisees, the very ones who shut up the kingdom of the heavens?….the very ones who don't go in themselves and prevent others from entering the kingdom?
David………Simply context of this would tell you that it it “WAS” Possible for the Pharisees to enter into the Kingdom of God at that time But they chose not to and they also were hindering other from entering the Kingdom of God at that time. Your play on context is in error. IMOAlso you might ask how could the enter the Kingdom as well as stop preventing those entering into it at that time from entering into it ? By believing what Jesus was saying that is how they could have at that time entered into it.
This scripture also back up what Jesus was saying by the Kingdom of God COMES, “not with Observation” but is within you. I notice you never address the complete verse especially the part of the Kingdom of GOD comes without observation why is that David? , you tend to try to belittle others as if they use many different scriptures from different contxst and that is exactly what you do. But in you case it is your organization defense that is really coming through you, not simple truth of what scripture is really saying > IMO
peace and love to you and yours David………………………gene
HI GENE,
“I notice you never address the complete verse especially the part of the Kingdom of GOD comes without observation why is that David? , you tend to try to belittle others as if they use many different scriptures from different contxst and that is exactly what you do.”First, I thought I did address it here:
Quote First, understand that Jesus, is the king of the kingdom. He represents the kingdom, just as Obama represents the US. Imagine for a second Jesus standing before you and you not knowing who he is, ask him when the kingdom is coming. (This would be somewhat ironic, laughable, foolish….but it was the pharisees, so our expectations aren't high.) The Pharisees believe that the kingdom will come with great pomp and ceremony, but Jesus says: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
The “for look” part should give us a clue. “For” is a conjunction, I think, and in the Greek it means the same as in English. It does involve a continuation of thought. Jesus is EXPLAINING his first statement. Let me translate my understanding for you:
Pharisees: When is the kingdom coming?
The King: It's not coming with striking a observableness.
The King: FOR LOOK FOOLS! I'm standing right here, in your midst, among you. (a few old Bible's translate this “within you.”)Or, if you prefer, The kingdom's right here, in your midst. Either way, Jesus represented the kingdom and was right among them, in front of their very faces.
Secondly, I specificially asked you to cite the scripture. You still haven't. That was more so my point. If you tie 6 or 7 little bits of scripture together in one thought, it would be nice to know where those ideas came from. When I quote scripture, for example, I almost always cite it. Example: (Gen 1:1)
“But in you case it is your organization defense that is really coming through you, not simple truth of what scripture is really saying > IMO”–Gene
Gene, it bothers me that I'm the only one of us actually quoting scriptures and you say this. How does that make sense?
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.” (Matthew 23:13)
If “THE” pharisees as whole were doing what jesus said above, please explain how Jesus would say that the very kingdom they shut up, is also inside of them.
And, you say my play on context is in error. I don't think you explained why very well. Jesus was ANSWERING the pharisees. Does it make sense that the kingdom of God is inside the very ones who shut up the kingdom?
[Please answer these questions]
Thank you.
David
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,19:54) Hi David, Are you sure Joseph of Arimathaea wasn't a Pharisee?
John 19:39 seems to indicate that Nicodemus accompanied
Joseph of Arimathaea when he legally acquired Jesus' dead body.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No one argues that “a” pharisee can't change. But when addressing the pharisees as a group, Jesus words were astoundingly clear.Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 14 2011,22:29) I have a question ; if Satan has a kingdom (temporary) called the world , and it is the same world that becomes part of the kingdom of God and his son ,how come
?how can that be ?
Hey Pierre,The Kingdom of Israel was once Saul's Kingdom, but then that same land became David's Kingdom. And then Solomon's. And so on.
All the kingdoms of the world belong to Satan for now, but soon the Son of God will conquer him and claim that land as part of his own Kingdom. And afterwards, the Prince will hand the reign of that Kingdom over to the rightful King of it.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,16:17) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 14 2011,22:29) I have a question ; if Satan has a kingdom (temporary) called the world , and it is the same world that becomes part of the kingdom of God and his son ,how come
?how can that be ?
Hey Pierre,The Kingdom of Israel was once Saul's Kingdom, but then that same land became David's Kingdom. And then Solomon's. And so on.
All the kingdoms of the world belong to Satan for now, but soon the Son of God will conquer him and claim that land as part of his own Kingdom. And afterwards, the Prince will hand the reign of that Kingdom over to the rightful King of it.
peace,
mike
Mikemy point that I intent to make here is that Satan take people away from God trough the corruption of the flesh,and so loosing there soul,
when Christ will have finish to taking away from Satan the people trough the gospel this would then be Gods world ,
but what really as changed is the knowledge,deeds ,and reasons to live in men ,and so it goes from one evil kingdom to an holy one Christ and God s kingdom,were all Gods will is done in it ,
the Kingdom of God in the spirit is in us ,and by doing all of Gods will God and Christ are in us ,because we all have that will,
God is spirit ,Christ is spirit , the 144k will be all spirits ,and those are the ones that will become a kingdom of priests for God and will supervise all the righteous on earth (after the final judgment )
and scriptures says that ALL WILL BE OF GOD,the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
so I do not believe that the Kingdom of God is a material one,
Pierre
Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,17:00) T8, I believe you are doing here what Gene likes to do. You are compiling a lot of different ideas and mixing them up. This is why quoting scriptures is so important.
That is right.At this stage I was making an argument based on how we are one with God and Jesus (which is scripture) and the kingdom possibly being in us, which could be scripture.
I believe that you can mix truthful concepts just as you can mix real ingredients to get a different taste or insight into something.
Of course, so long as you do not pretend or deceive people into calling an ingredient as another.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,19:01) the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
What scripture says this, Pierre?OK.
The Kingdom of God is invisible.
david, your organisation is visible, I see them once every 5 years on average.
Your organisation also doesn't believe that we can be born again.But Jesus taught this to a Pharisee of all people:
“I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”So the kingdom can only be seen or experienced once a new spirit is placed in us.
Hence it would be right to say that the Kingdom is in us because that new spirit is in us and that is how we see the kingdom..
It would also be right to say that the Kingdom was available to the Pharisees if they became born again and hence the kingdom of God was available to them if they were born again meaning that the kingdom was available to them from within if they chose.
But they were likely looking for a physical kingdom, a messiah who would restore Israel.So indeed the Jesus was in essence saying that this Pharisee (Nicodemus) could see the Kingdom if he was born again.
And being born again is to have a new spirit placed in us, and hence within us becomes the context by which we can see the Kingdom of God.I know david that you would disagree with much I have written in this post because it goes against more than one precept of your organisation.
But at least consider that the organisation you belong to which claims to be part of the government of God is very visible and the Kingdom is invisible.
Is that not a contradiction worth looking into?My thinking is that by being invisible it is saying that it is a spiritual kingdom and not a physical one, and hence why it becomes visible when we have the perfect spirit put in us because we see it with our new spirit and not with our physical senses.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 15 2011,20:03) It would also be right to say that the Kingdom was available to the Pharisees if they became born again and hence the kingdom of God was available to them if they were born again meaning that the kingdom was available to them from within if they chose.
But Jesus didn't say, “the Kingdom of God COULD SOMEDAY BE WITHIN YOU“, did he? According to the translation you like, Jesus said “the Kingdom of God IS within you”. And then they had him killed.Also, why are people trying to make this about the Jehovah's Witnesses? In fact, why do they ALWAYS do that with David?
Can't he just be a student of the Bible right now who is trying to convey his scriptural understandings?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,19:43) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,19:01) the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
What scripture says this, Pierre?
MikeJer 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.Isa 51:7 “Hear me, you who know what is right,
you people who have my law in your hearts:
Do not fear the reproach of men
or be terrified by their insults.Hos 8:12 I wrote for them the many things of my law,
but they regarded them as something alien.Pr 6:6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
Pr 6:7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,Rev 21:5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.Rev 21:8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
Hos 2:18 In that day I will make a covenant for them
with the beasts of the field and the birds of the air
and the creatures that move along the ground.
Bow and sword and battle
I will abolish from the land,
so that all may lie down in safety.
Hos 2:21 “In that day I will respond,”
declares the LORD—
“I will respond to the skies,
and they will respond to the earthLaws are made for the unrighteous ,guide lines to righteousness are made to become righteous ,but when all is righteous,the guide disappears , so that there is only one will ,the one from God,in the heart and mind,
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore in that day they will know
that it is I who foretold it.
Yes, it is I.”Pierre
Yes Mike it is not about JWs.
I was replying to one though, so I was giving him some reasons why the Kingdom of God is within us, using scriptures that david doesn't think is applicable to believers, (born again) hence I kind of shortened the process of toing and froing by cutting to the chase.And I agree that the Kingdom if it is within us was in us at the time. My guess is it is deeper then the soul and hence if we do not choose, then the soul is not connected to the Spirit of God and hence no connection to the Kingdom.
All in all, the Kingdom is among us, is still a contender IMO.
But I see evidence for both views at the moment.It is quite possible that both are true.
Quote the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures, –Pierre.
Which scripture pierre? Did you quote any scriptures there? Why can't we all just start quoting from scripture?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,12:43) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,19:01) the government is in our hearts ,because that is were God says he will put it ,according to scriptures,
What scripture says this, Pierre?
So I'm not the only one wondering this.Pierre, please provide the scripture for us.
T8, holy fallacies BATMAN!
I MEAN, REALLY? REALLY?
I am astounded at what you just did there T8! I thought we could have a discussion about a certain topic. Well, what could I expect. You are a Nzer. So, everything you say is wrong, right? Plus, you were funny clothes, so you are wrong. I don't even need to discuss the actual topic at hand, because you are a Nzer, and I can reject anything you say. I can just spit out unconnected propoganda and most people will buy it, right? I mean, REALLY? Really? Really?
Quote why are people trying to make this about the Jehovah's Witnesses? In fact, why do they ALWAYS do that with David? –Mike
So, I'm not the only one that sees it.
T8, I'm going to ask you some questions about the Bible. If you can, I'd like you to try to answer my actual questions, using scripture. If you can't, well, I understand why.
T8, you said this: “Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and surely he wasn't saying that the Kingdom was within them.”
You also said this: It would however make sense to say among them (Pharisess) if indeed Jesus and/or his disciples were among the Pharisees, so to speak.
Yes, it would make sense to say “in your midst” or “among you” to the Pharisees if Jesus was “among” them when he said that, wouldn't it. You ask this as if you don't know that the Pharisees asked Jesus the question and Jesus “answered” him.T8, do you think they were using telephone? I'm quite certain they were standing “”””among””” each other. Right? Right?
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.” (Matthew 23:13)
If Jesus said the Pharisees “shut up the kingdom” before men, and prevent ones from entering it, and they themselves “DO NOT GO IN” how, oh how, OH HOW, please explain how, anyone could believe that the kingdom is “within” them? How? How? The pharisees, Jesus essentially condemned them to Gehenna, asking how they would flee from that judgment. They shut up the kingdom.
HOW CAN ANYONE LOGICALLY THINK THAT THE KINGDOM IS WITHIN THEM? I find that idea absurd to the highest degree.
I would like anyone who believes this to explain it to me.T8, if you disagree with me, please address this scripture. Please address the fact that Jesus was “answering”–saying his words to the Pharisees. Perhaps you did try to address this in your last post, but I couldn't see anything like that over the glaring fallacious unrelated propaganda like responses coming from you.
T8, I get that you don't like JW. I understand why you feel this way. Now that that's settled, can we discuss the Bible without using false arguments?
david
“”I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
So the kingdom can only be seen or experienced once a new spirit is placed in us.
Hence it would be right to say that the Kingdom is in us because that new spirit is in us and that is how we see the kingdom..”–T8I guess it would be “right to say that” if by “right” you mean completely fallacious and devoid of logic.
You say:
–new spirit placed in us means people can see kingdom
–that new spirit in us is how we see the kingdom
–therefore: the kingdom is in us.This is more of that gobbly gook that people seem to love to use when they speak of things they don't seem to understand. Let's break down your logic:
X in us means we can see K
Therefore, K is in us.If that isn't your logic, please do correct me. I would like to argue against this, but after staring at it for a while, it's too absurd. Is this what they teach you in New Zealand? I now understand why Australia feels the way it does about you. (I of course love New Zealand, but have lowered myself to this shameful, sad of level if argumentation to make a point, and now I feel disgusted with myself.)
Quote It would also be right to say that the Kingdom was available to the Pharisees if they became born again and hence the kingdom of God was available to them if they were born again meaning that the kingdom was available to them from within if they chose.
T8, no one argues that the kingdom was available to the pharisees.
Yet, we KNOW that as a group, they rejected it, shut up the kingdom for others, don't go in themselves, are hypocrites, serpents, offspring of vipers, and how are they to flee from the judgment of Gehenna? At least, those are things Jesus said.
So, sure, the kingdom was available to any pharisee, just like anyone else. Your point?Quote But they were likely looking for a physical kingdom, a messiah who would restore Israel.
And this is part of the reason that “the pharisees” as a group, rejected Jesus, the son of God, and played a large part in killing the son of God.Quote So indeed the Jesus was in essence saying that this Pharisee (Nicodemus) could see the Kingdom if he was born again.
And being born again is to have a new spirit placed in us, and hence within us becomes the context by which we can see the Kingdom of God.You will have to explain that last sentence. new spirit placed in us. So you say “hence” “within us” becomes the context by which we can see the kingdom. Do you even believe what you are saying? Is that Nzer talk? It sounds lawyery. Can you explain the logic of that last sentence.
Quote I know david that you would disagree with much I have written in this post because it goes against more than one precept of your organisation.
But at least consider that the organisation you belong to which claims to be part of the government of God is very visible and the Kingdom is invisible.Jesus was once visible. Jesus is the king of the kingdom. He is now quite invisible. So too of those who make up the kingdom with him.
REVELATION 1:6
“and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”
REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”T8, The kingdom is a government made up of Jesus, and the “holy ones.” They are of course visible while on earth, as Jesus was when he was on earth. Not when they die, obviously. T8, Do the scriptures above have any words in bold? What are those words? I can see them. PEOPLE make up the kingdom. Your efforts to spiritualize and cloud the kingdom would be so much easier if not for scriptures like these. How do you explain them in view of what you believe the kingdom is? Are people, the real people who 'make up the kingdom' inside of other people?
T8, can you answer that please?
Quote Yes Mike it is not about JWs.
I was replying to one though, so I was giving him some reasons why the Kingdom of God is within us, using scriptures that david doesn't think is applicable to believers,First,you didn't use “scriptures,” you used one scripture:
“I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
Secondly, I believe it is applicable to believers, but not all believers. When quoting this, we should also include the next verse;
“Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”A kingdom is a government ruled by a king. Words have actual meaning. Dictionaries exist for reasons. Those who enter the kingdom, or as the previous post shows, the people who 'make up the kingdom' yes, they must be born again.
“and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Notice, 2 GROUPS!
1. THOSE who make up the kingdom and rule as kings.
2. Those who they rule over, on earth.To see the kingdom, to enter the kingdom of the heavens, one must be born again. But not everyone needs to be in the government do they.
New Zealand has a government doesn't it? Are you in that government? Why not? Because the purpose of a government is to rule for the benefit of everyone else.
David…………You are using your JW Bible translation to support you false teachings of the Kingdom of God only being a Physical Kingdom becasue it makes you people feel you are special , unique, and separates you from the rest of the world so by that you people think you are the “ONLY TRUE CHOSEN ONES” and in order to grow you organization your leaders Know it is necessary to preach that their organization is the only ones who have “THE REAL TRUTH” even if it means creating you own translations and alterations of plain scriptures.
You say we don't quote scriptures that is a LIE David, We have and you fail to acknowledge them becasue they differ from you organizations belief system .
Here is some scriptures that you say we don't quote.
Like 17:20……And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,when the, Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,The kingdom of God comes “NOT WITH OBSERVATION”
Luk 17:21……> Neither shall you say, Lo here!, or lo there! for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you
Now David are these Scriptures or NOT?
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
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