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Quote David…….Show us where in any of those scriptures that it says that the Kingdom of GOD is (NOT) within you. Show me anywhere where scripture says: “Satan is not a real being.”
Again, more of your completely absurd and false logic.
Instead of you looking at what scripture doesn't say, why not look at what it does say, Gene? Why let yourself be blinded by the god of this world? I know you can see those scriptures. I know they are there.
Quote Please quote that to us if you can find it anywhere.
Right after you quote to us where it says: “Santa isn't real.”
I guess Santa is real.Gene, as I've said before, if you like, you can say that the Bible is in you. We would understand what you mean. But, more accurately, the Bible is a book that is on my table.
When it comes to God's kingdom, the scriptures you close your eyes to (and there are many) very clearly show the kingdom to be a government. Many Bible's actually use that word in Isaiah 9:6.
And yes, we can get poetical and say that the U.S. government is in President Obama. But, more accurately, and speaking literally, the government is Obama, and many many others.
Quote You have been taught to view things from a physical view point and are not seeing the spiritual side.
No, I just like using scripture. Didn't Jesus do that? I think he did.Quote Luke 17:20-21….. they as him when would the kingdom of God come and He Said” the kingdom of God does (NOT) come with (OBSERVATION) nor will they say, “See here! or see there! For indeed the Kingdom of God is Within you. That alone should answer your question. First, Thankyou for using a scripture. It's not very hard.
Listen, Gene. If there weren't 25 other Bibles that translated it “in your midst” or “among you” and if there wasn't a pile of scriptures that also contradicted that translation, I would completely agree with you. Can't you see that?
Quote But you must and the JW twist it up to try to change its simple meaning. Even is the part of the kingdom is in you midst was wrong as you and the JW,S A very quick check showed me most modern Bible's translate it that way, just as the NWT does. Sure, the KJ version and the New KJ Version and the 21St Century KJ version and a few other Bibles do translate it the way you suggest, the wrong way. But, the KJ is known for a lot of …. errors. It's one of my favorite Bibles, but it's not perfect.
Gene, do you own any other Bibles. I'm curious if you do, and if so, which ones?
KINGDOM (government)–Mt 6:9,10; Dan 2:44; 1 Cor 15:24; Is 9:6,7;
KINGDOM (Jesus ruler)–Dan 7:13,14; Rev 11:15
KINGDOM (co-rulers)–Dan 7:18,22,27; Rev 1:6; 5,9,10; 20:6; 3:21; 20:4,5; 22:3-5; Ja 2:5; 1 Cor 4:8; 6:2; 2 Ti 2:12; Lu 22:28-30
KINGDOM (in heaven)–2 Tim 4:18; 1 Cor 15:50; 1 Jo 3:2
KINGDOM (not in heart)–Lu 17:20,21 ((Notice verse 20))I noticed that the 2 or 3 times you quoted a scripture in the past 50 posts, it was Luke 17:21 (and a scripture in Matthew) and all those times, you forgot verse 20.
CONTEXT!
Listen, Gene. If there weren't 25 other Bibles that translated it “in your midst” or “among you” and if there wasn't a pile of scriptures that also contradicted that translation, I would completely agree with you. Can't you see that?
David………What about the rest of that sentence that shows it comes without observation, and we won't say here it is or there it is, this part of the sentence obviously mean you can't physical see it, why? because the Kingdom of God is within you. God is SPIRIT and Must rule SPIRITUALLY , in a person, that plain. IMO
love and peace………………………gene
Quote David………What about the rest of that sentence that shows it comes without observation, and we won't say here it is or there it is, this part of the sentence obviously mean you can't physical see it, why? because the Kingdom of God is within you. Not necessarily Gene. I actually believe God's kingdom is already ruling. It's first act was to war against Satan and remove him from heaven. (Or, the “opposer” if you like.)
The start of the rule of God’s kingdom does not mean immediate peace and security on earth.
After Satan is thrown out of heaven, he has a relatively “short period of time” left. The Bible speaks of the “last days” of this corrupt world. (2 Tim 3). It speaks of the conclusion of this system of things. (Mat 24.) There would be a period of time when these events were happening, just as the days of Noah were, Jesus said–So the presense of the Son of Man shall be. The great worldwide preaching work would also be taking place. (mat 24:14)
When God’s government begins its rule, Satan and his angels are still living in heaven. Since they oppose Kingdom rule, right away war breaks out. As a result, Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven. At this, a loud voice says:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and THE KINGDOM OF OUR GOD AND THE AUTHORITY OF HIS CHRIST.” God’s government begins. And with Satan and his angels removed from heaven, there is rejoicing there. “On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them!” the Bible says.—Revelation 12:7-12.
But it is not a happy time for the earth. It is the greatest time of trouble the earth has ever had: “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing HE HAS A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.”So, even though “now have come to pass … the kingdom” Satan would still be allowed to cause “woe” to the earth for a relatively short period of time. (Hello World Wars and Pestilences, and earthquakes like history has never seen.)
Would everyone discern it's presence? No, just as most would mock and say we are not living in the last days (2 Peter; Matthew 24) most would not recognize the sign of his presence in kingdom power.
Of course, the kingdom has not destroyed all other governments at this time. (dan 2:44)
“This man [Jesus Christ] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, FROM THEN ON AWAITING until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.” (Hebrews 10:12, 13) When the time came for Christ to begin to rule, Jehovah told him: “Go subduing [or, conquering] in the midst of your enemies.”—Psalm 110:1, 2, 5, 6.
The start of the rule of God’s kingdom does not mean immediate peace and security on earth.
But, regarding what Jesus said, it was obvious that to those wicked people he was addressing or “answering” the kingdom of God was not observable. The very head of that kingdom stood right before them…yet, they were clueless.
So, no, the kingdom being within is not the only logical explaination of that verse. It's just as easily explained by the preceeding paragraph. Here is that simple explanation again:
it was obvious that to those wicked people he was addressing or “answering” the kingdom of God was not observable. The very head of that kingdom stood right before them…yet, they were clueless.BUT, WHEN WE FACTOR THIS IN:
KINGDOM (government)–Mt 6:9,10; Dan 2:44; 1 Cor 15:24; Is 9:6,7;
KINGDOM (Jesus ruler)–Dan 7:13,14; Rev 11:15
KINGDOM (co-rulers)–Dan 7:18,22,27; Rev 1:6; 5,9,10; 20:6; 3:21; 20:4,5; 22:3-5; Ja 2:5; 1 Cor 4:8; 6:2; 2 Ti 2:12; Lu 22:28-30
KINGDOM (in heaven)–2 Tim 4:18; 1 Cor 15:50; 1 Jo 3:2
KINGDOM (not in heart)–Lu 17:20,21 ((Notice verse 20))THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT WHAT JESUS MEANT. MODERN BIBLES TRANSLATE THIS SO THAT IT DOESN'T CONFLICT WITH THESE MANY SCRIPTURES.
Question: How do you solve this conflict?
What is the Kingdom mentioned in the Bible?
I started this thread.
The above was my original question.
The word “kingdom” occurs about 360 times in the Bible.
“God's kingdom” about 10 times.
“kingdom of God” about 66 times.
(If looking for God's kingdom, (not worldly government) the word occurs most frequently in the Book of Daniel, and the gospels and in Revelation.)
If you are someone who can only find one single scripture to explain what God's kingdom is, ask yourself what the rest of the Bible is for.
Hi david,
Good stuff.
But the timing of the casting of Satan and the angelic hordes to earth is in question.When that happens then the work of the accuser of the brethren before God, shown in Job 1-2 and Zech 3, as well as often in the NT would cease. I am not sure such is evident yet.
Quote Good stuff.
But the timing of the casting of Satan and the angelic hordes to earth is in question.Not really. Here's a good place to start:
http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/Quote But the timing of the casting of Satan and the angelic hordes to earth is in question. When that happens then the work of the accuser of the brethren before God, shown in Job 1-2 and Zech 3, as well as often in the NT would cease. I am not sure such is evident yet.
Nick, I don't want to get into a long discussion on this here. I want to keep this topic simple. It should be simple. I just wanted to show that God's kingdom would not at first be observable to everyone–only with those that had spiritual eyes.
Many today, cannot see it, or Christ's presence, just as he foretold. (Mat 24)
-The King James Translator’s Notes on Luke 17:21 says:
“within you: or, among you.”
That's funny. There's nothing left Gene. You can no longer just keep saying: 'That's what it says' and ignoring the rest of scripture. Because, what the translators say is that it says: “within you: or, among you.”
BUT, the context itself tells us how it should be translated.
“Within” is translated from entos, used only twice in the New Testament. Its primary meaning is “inside,” as it is rendered in Matthew 23:26: “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” However, when used in conjunction with a plural noun, entos means “among” or “in the midst of.” In Luke 17:21, entos is used with “you,” and from the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, who had come to question Him about the Kingdom of God (verse 20). “You,” then, is plural. “The kingdom of God is among you” is best.
And then we have all those other scriptures that do plainly and without question show the kingdom to be a government.
I laughed hysterically when I found out the KJ had that in the margins. How can this be any more obvious?
I think this site puts it very logically:
Christ was addressing these comments to the Pharisees, the religious leaders of the day. It is inconceivable that he would be telling these same Pharisees, who sought to kill him, that the Kingdom of God existed `within' them (Mark 3:6). He rebuked them because they “shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men”. He said “for you neither go in yourselves, neither suffer you them that are entering to go in” (Matthew 23:13). The religious leaders of the day were a stumbling block, to those who were being given the opportunity to learn about God's Kingdom.
http://www.abcog.org/nh/herenow.htmIs there anyone who wants to discuss SCRIPTURALLY what the kingdom of God is?
(It is an important subject, afterall.): “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.
I can't believe one scripture (luke 17:20,21) could dislodge so many other scriptures and be used to confuse the unwary to such a degree, especially considering all the other scriptures.
Is there anyone who wants to discuss SCRIPTURALLY what the kingdom of God is?
(It is an important subject, afterall.)Gene, I'm still wondering what you make of the KJ's version Translators comments in the margin.
David……Luk 17:20-21……does not dislodge anything David, what you not getting is the outward Kingdom of God you only focus on is the result of the Kingdom of God in a person, that produces the out ward kingdom. Remember Jesus said (thy) Kingdom come (How) by thy WILL being DONE, and where does God's will work “for He (GOD) works in us both to (WILL) and DO of His good pleasure.”
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene, not sure if you saw this post:
-The King James Translator’s Notes on Luke 17:21 says:
“within you: OR, AMONG YOU.” [Caps added for emphasis]
That's funny. There's nothing left Gene. You can no longer just keep saying: 'That's what it says' and ignoring the rest of scripture. Because, what the translators say is that it says: “within you: or, among you.”
BUT, the context itself tells us how it should be translated.
“Within” is translated from entos, used only twice in the New Testament. Its primary meaning is “inside,” as it is rendered in Matthew 23:26: “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” However, when used in conjunction with a plural noun, entos means “among” or “in the midst of.” In Luke 17:21, entos is used with “you,” and from the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, who had come to question Him about the Kingdom of God (verse 20). “You,” then, is plural. “The kingdom of God is among you” is best.
And then we have all those other scriptures that do plainly and without question show the kingdom to be a government.
I laughed hysterically when I found out the KJ had that in the margins. How can this be any more obvious?
Taken from another website:
“Christ was addressing these comments to the Pharisees, the religious leaders of the day. It is inconceivable that he would be telling these same Pharisees, who sought to kill him, that the Kingdom of God existed `within' them (Mark 3:6). He rebuked them because they “shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men”. He said “for you neither go in yourselves, neither suffer you them that are entering to go in” (Matthew 23:13). The religious leaders of the day were a stumbling block, to those who were being given the opportunity to learn about God's Kingdom.”
Perhaps that is why the KJ felt it necessary to include the alternate (and contextually correct) possible translation “among you” in the margins.
“Within” is translated from entos. Its primary meaning is “inside,” as it is rendered in Matthew 23:26: “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” However, when used in conjunction with a plural noun, entos means “among” or “in the midst of.” In Luke 17:21, entos is used with “you,” and from the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, who had come to question Him about the Kingdom of God (verse 20). “You,” then, is plural. “The kingdom of God is among you” is best.
And all the more so when we factor in the context of the entire Bible:
KINGDOM (government)–Dan 2:44; 1 Cor 15:24; Is 9:6,7;
KINGDOM (Jesus ruler)–Dan 7:13,14; Rev 11:15
KINGDOM (co-rulers)–Dan 7:18,22,27; Rev 1:6; 5,9,10; 20:6; 3:21; 20:4,5; 22:3-5; Ja 2:5; 1 Cor 4:8; 6:2; 2 Ti 2:12; Lu 22:28-30it then becomes obvious how Luke 17:20,21 should be translated. Modern Bibles agree.
Quote David……Luk 17:20-21……does not dislodge anything David So you do acknowledge the existence of the scriptures above in bold?
Can you at least acknowledge them? Can you say they exist?
“Luke 17:21
“Within” is translated from entos, used only twice in the New Testament. Its primary meaning is “inside,” as it is rendered in Matthew 23:26: “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” However, when used in conjunction with a plural noun, entos means “among” or “in the midst of.” In Luke 17:21, entos is used with “you,” and from the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, who had come to question Him about the Kingdom of God (verse 20). “You,” then, is plural. “The kingdom of God is among you” is best.
Most modern translations have recognized this grammatical error and translate entos as “among” or “in the midst of.” Some texts, like the New King James and the New International versions, persist in using “within,” though they note in the margin that “among” is an alternative.
Even without this technical knowledge of Greek, we could have easily understood that “within” is a poor and misleading translation. Christ was answering a question posed by the Pharisees, and He replied directly to them: “He answered them and said, . . . 'For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.'” But how could the Kingdom of God be within His most bitter enemies? How many times did He reveal them to be hyprocritical and misleading the people? Theologically, it is quite impossible to think that His Kingdom would be in the Pharisees. . . .”
“King James Translators' Notes
within you: or, among you”
http://bible.cc/luke/17-21.htm“Careful study will show you that the phrase “within you” is a mistranslation. The New King James margin says, “in your midst.” The New English Bible says, “is among you.” The Revised Standard Version says, “in the midst of you.” Christ was telling these carnal men that His kingdom was in their presence.”
“Luke 17:21, the translation 'within you' and the Greek word entos – did Jesus mean that the Kingdom of God is 'in the hearts of men', as some claim?
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: {with…: or, with outward shew} 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. {within you: or, among you} (KJV, with footnotes from the Online Bible's KJ module)
Now, was Jesus saying, “the Reign of God is among you”, or, “the Reign of God is inside you”? The Greek word which is central here, was entos (opposite to ektos). The only other use of that word in the New Testament is found in Matthew 23:26, in the phrase “the inside of the cup”. But, one can learn more about how the old Greek word entos was used, in the LXX, the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament:
The LXX has the word entos in Psalms 39:3 (“my heart grew hot within me”; 38:3 in the LXX numbering), Psalms 103:1 (“all within me”; 102:1 in the LXX numbering), Psalms 109:22 (“my heart is troubled within me”; 108:22 in the LXX numbering), Song of Solomon 3:10 “in the midst of it”) Isaiah 16:11 (“my inward parts”), Daniel 10:16 (“within me”; see the LXX). One could also consider the related word entosthios which meant “intestinal”.
Thus, on the surface, that would seem to give support to the “within you” dogma. However, Luke 17:20-21 was about the Pharisees. It was to the Pharisees Jesus said, as the Greek text records it, hê basileia tou Theou entos umôn estin, “the Kingdom of God is among you”. Taking into consideration the fact that Jesus condemned the Pharisees, asked them how they thought they were going to escape the gehenna judgment, and warned people about the Pharisees and their teachings – considering those things and more, it is totally inconceivable that Jesus would have meant that the Reign of God would have been “inside” those Pharisees. (The essay eo12c.htm has more on the Pharisees.) Because of this as well as for other reasons, the obvious conclusion is that Jesus must have meant that the Reign of God was at that moment present in the midst of those Pharisees – in the form of Jesus himself. He was there, Jesus the Son of God who represented God and his Reign. That must be what the last part of Luke 17:21 means and refers to.
(The Online Bible's 1599 Geneva Bible footnotes module has this comment on Luke 17:21: “You look around for the Messiah as though he were absent, but he is amongst you in the midst of you.”)”
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